DEBATE: Busses

[ohanafamily]

I was just reminded by my Darling Bride that we had a meeting with a supervisor in the transportation department during our last trip to WDW. As I was reminded, he told us about the fiasco with the GPS’s on the OKW busses. They installed a trial set on several busses. It seemed that it took 15 minutes for the signal to go from the busses to the satellite to Seattle and back to Florida. It didn’t work well at all, and they were not told beforehand of this time delay. I seem to remember him saying that they were scrapping this project, but I think the company was trying to see about keeping their bid by moving a computer center to WDW. At any rate, this wasn’t the main crux of our meeting so I don’t have any notes on the matter.

 

[micfan]

It seems to me what is lacking in this proposed system is some kind of real time data collection of who is waiting to go where. With this type of information it should be possible to automate the the dispatching process to deliver the correct size bus to the correct place, as well as providing feedback as to how long you will have to wait (in a variety of places and formats).

I'm from the camp that it would great to know when the next bus is coming but that waits in excess of 20 minutes should be unacceptable.

The technology is there it just needs to be applied. If GPS doesn't work a system of networked wireless sensors along the bus routes could track the progress of each bus. Something as simple as a turnstile at a bus stop could be used to update the system. Granted the complexity of something like this would preclude it from happinging quickly, but it could be done.

 

[DisneyKidds]

What the heck - I'll jump in, especially since I saw my name thrown out there.

Baron, I agree - busses always suck. Always have, always will.

What is the number one problem? The inability to do what Disney want's you to do most is what I see as the #1 problem. Forget erratic schedule, even if they ran like clockwork, it takes too long to get around and, as they say in Maine, 'ya kahnt get thar from here'.

We haven't used a bus since our honeymoon. Even a 20 minute bus stop wait is too long for us. Typhoon Lagoon to (insert resort) on an air conditioned bus in a wet bathing suit - no thanks. Then take a typical Kidds Clan day. Breakfast at the GF, one theme park for the morning, back to the VWL in the afternoon for a swim/nap, off to the BC for dinner, finish the night at another park. Do that on a bus? No way!!! Disney wants you to be mobile, spend money in the restaurants, etc., but transportation between resorts is terrible.

We always get a car. We don't find driving to be a hassle. Using the busses to avoid the 'hassle' of driving, and then haveing to be so unhappy about the busses when they come - that is a hassle. No 40 minute waits standing with a sleeping baby. No hour plus trips. In control of our own destiny, etc. A car works just fine for us - as anti-Magic as it may seem to some.

 

[mkandk]

Solar powered busses?

fuel cell busses?

Maybe a partnership with Ford or Chrysler, so they could show off some of their new technology.

 

[DisneyKidds]

...DScoop disagrees with DK...

Ahh....it's bound to happen once in a while . I should note that my disdain for busses is a purely subjective and personal thing.

Yes, busses can be made to be more interesting and unique. However, for this Disney fan it would take a lot more than that to make the Disney bus system fun and pleasureable.

The transportation system as a whole is just too inefficient. Need to get from the CBR to the GF for breakfast? It just takes too long the way the entire transportation system is designed. How about WL to GF, which are very close? Same deal. By the time you take a boat from the WL to the CR, then hop a monorail......I can get there in my comfy rental in one quarter of the time.

 

[EUROPA]

Well we just got back from 10 days in Orlando..7 at Disney and just incase your wondering the Bus system is still very bad. All of the problems that people list are still there including the one that gets over looked the most. The "packed -wall to wall- people standing -on top- of you bus". When did standing on a bus become the norm? I don't live in a big city but I would think for saftey reasons it would not be allowed. I guess its cheaper in the long run to operate less busses then to make sure everyone gets a seat and only have to pay settlements when the busses are in accidents? Several times we were on a bus that was packed and had people standing only to find out that we had to make another stop and pick up more people. The drivers kept repeating the buses would hold 71 people. Each time we picked up an additional 3 -4 people but pissed off about 100 when the already full bus pulled up the stop and left them all still standing there. Oh and don't even try to get a bus back to your resort from the AK before 11 am it just won't happen. They don't even stop to pick up resort guest until that time.

 

[DMoss3377]

After reading through all of these posts, I have to say that for the most part, we didn't experience the horrible waits times that often when we were there in October. But we stayed at the Yacht Club.

Our friends on the other hand stayed at the All-Stars and were waiting everytime, and waiting unbelievably long waits. But besides the wait, which we all agreed we could deal with IF...there was resort to resort transfers.

We were there for our wedding and honeymoon. If our friend needed to get to our resort or meet us at another resort, it was like mission impossible. They had to wait forever to take a bus to a park, then wait again to hop a bus to our resort, and that's only if they went during the day. When the parks closed, it was a wait to get a bus to DTD and then another wait to get a bus to our resort, etc...and the ride to DTD is not a short one.

And it made no sense to us that there wouldn't be resort to resort transfers considering how many resorts have their own restaurants and attractions. For example, we went to the Poly Luah, had to wait 45 minutes to catch a bus to DTD - passing our resort on the way - only to hop off and wait for the next bus to our respective resorts. Turned the whole trip from Poly to YC into around 2 hours and our friends whole trip was around 2 1/2 hours.

Well, there's my 2 cents.

 

[Cricket2]

Originally posted by ohanafamily
They installed a trial set on several busses. It seemed that it took 15 minutes for the signal to go from the busses to the satellite to Seattle and back to Florida. It didn’t work well at all, and they were not told beforehand of this time delay. I seem to remember him saying that they were scrapping this project, but I think the company was trying to see about keeping their bid by moving a computer center to WDW. At any rate, this wasn’t the main crux of our meeting so I don’t have any notes on the matter.

This is not how the system I saw works. I don't even know how this would be possible with a moving vehicle without being off the charts expensive (sat. uplink bandwidth is crazy cash). Down-links are very common (DBS dishes and all GPS tech. for example) because bandwidth isn't an issue. UPlinks however are extremely rare and costly for very little gain.

The technology is there it just needs to be applied. If GPS doesn't work a system of networked wireless sensors along the bus routes could track the progress of each bus. Something as simple as a turnstile at a bus stop could be used to update the system. Granted the complexity of something like this would preclude it from happening quickly, but it could be done.

This is how the one I saw worked. Each bus had a marker route that contained a set # of stations. Each pass of a station from a bus would give a calculation to the server about time/distance so it can calculate a new projected "toa" to the next marker. The past performance DB would compare and project a "toa" to the next stop for display when needed. If the bus is running slow (or fast), the server would know ahead of time and re-calculate the stop's clock accordingly. It was all radio, no sat. tech. used that I know of.



These are most likely the new busses:

JC

 

[ohanafamily]

I think that about 2 years ago they took out the resort to resrt shuttles. I guess the resort to resort demographic isn't worth the resources. I think that they have also removed busses from the park to resort trips. I think that this is why we have been having these problems. Anybody know who to write to?

 

[Cricket2]

Originally posted by ohanafamily
I think that about 2 years ago they took out the resort to resrt shuttles.

I didn't know they ever even had these.?.?.?


JC

 

[ohanafamily]

If I recall the details, the busses each had a GPS in it. They transmitted thier location that was relayed by radio to a satellite and then down to a server farm in Seatle. The location was relayed back by radio to the various locations it needed to be at. This is mostly simple off the shelf technology, but when you use a major carrier there are bandwidth limitations.

Again, I don't recall all of the details, mainly too long of a delay, and it didn't work well.

 

[ohanafamily]

I didn't know they ever even had these.?.?.?

I remember catching a resort to resort shuttle a few years back, transportation was nuch easier then. I think the first round of cutbacks got them.

The next round took out one or more per run.

 

[RIDISNEYLOVERS]

To go along with the start of this thread - my #1 complaint would be not place to put your stroller when boarding the bus. The aisles are too narrow to put a stroller through without hitting people with it.

HOWEVER, last week while we were at WDW I did ride on a few new buses that had nice wide aisles and a place to put your stroller. Also the doors were much wider to get on the bus. There weren't many seats, however there was a lot of standing room if need be.

I also agree with many of you that there should be resort to resort buses. There were many occasions where we had breakfast and dinner reservations at another hotel and it is a pain to get from one to another. There are only 5 major hubs to get a resort bus - the 4 theme parks and DTD.

I think if Disney comes up with this "system" of the buses running on a schedule and you "knowing" when the next one will show up will put a lot of people at ease - on vacation!!

One thing that I have always heard and heed to is - ALLOW YOURSELF AT LEAST ONE HOUR TO GET TO YOUR DESTINATION!!

Now to the person about being in TL at 3:00 and having to get to dinner at 7:00 with little ones in tow - leave TL at 3:00 and you should arrive back at your hotel at 4:00 so you will have approximately 1 1/2 to 2 hours to get ready and leave giving yourself an hour to reach your dinner destination. This is my opinon - I know, I know it sounds easier said than done and a lot of wasted time traveling!! Also a little FYI - you could get a bus to the Boardwalk or Beach Club and get in Epcot through the International Gateway - that may be another option but may take more time.

Whatever happens, I just hope Disney does imporve their bus system!!

Lisa

 

[Lesley]

Oh, we hit that AK snag ourselves...forgot about that! I think we had to nearly jump on a bus driver, who found someone to take us back to our resort...

Problems, yes....but then again...I don't think the bus systems in most cities are any better.

 

[ohanafamily]

Originally posted by RIDISNEYLOVERS
Now to the person about being in TL at 3:00 and having to get to dinner at 7:00 with little ones in tow - leave TL at 3:00 and you should arrive back at your hotel at 4:00 so you will have approximately 1 1/2 to 2 hours to get ready and leave giving yourself an hour to reach your dinner destination. This is my opinon

Dearest Lisa, there is but one flaw in your argument:

Getting from one hotel to another requires a transfer, so One would need to give an hour to get to the transfer stop from the first bus stop, then give another hour to get to the second hotel. Even then, it can take an hour and a half to get to DTD by bus; so make it three hours to be sure

 

[Glenn]

Last Dec I stayed at CRS & the bus service was great since they didnt share. They also had a direct line to the Boardwalk. It seems since then things have gone downhill. Not having to drive & haveing reasonalbe bus service helps make a vacation. I drive a couple of hrs a day to & from work & its the last thing I want to do on vacation. With all the problems getting to & from DTD nowdays Im going to skip it this Dec. So I will do less shopping. Ill save money, disney will get less. Maybe just a little less pixie dust too.

 

[Tiffany]

There is a great post over on the Transportation boards by Chip'n Dale Express. He is a bus driver for Disney and he posted how the system is set up to work. I do not know how to post a link but go over there and take a look. It might answer some of your questions.

We live just outside of Boston and standing on buses and trains during peak travel times are the norm up here. Always has been and always will be. We find the buses at WDW work well if you are going from your resort to one of the four major parks and back. Bus transportation from resort to resort or from resort to DTD and other minor parks and areas is not worth the wait to us. We always rent a car. Our last three trips, 2 at AKL and one at the Dolphin we had no problems with the buses going from our resort to one of the four main parks and back.

 

[ohanafamily]

Originally posted by Tiffany
There is a great post over on the Transportation boards by Chip'n Dale Express. He is a bus driver for Disney and he posted how the system is set up to work. I do not know how to post a link but go over there and take a look. It might answer some of your questions.

Here is the URL

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=292049

 

[Chip 'n Dale Express]

Originally posted by Mr. J. Cricket
New busses or new-to-them-used busses? The reason Tokyo has cool design busses is because they were built for them custom (probably, I've never seen them). Many WDW busses are refurbs from cities all over the US.

This is a basic summary of Disney's current fleet.

2701-2743 - GMC RTS busses, ranging from 1980-1987. Bought new.
2744 - GMC RTS, 1980, widebody... an oddball.
2745-2780 - GMC RTS busses, ranging from 1979-1981. Bought used from Miami-Dade county, and completely rebuilt by Midwest Bus in 1998. These busses are widebodies, which means they are 102" wide, versus the standard 96" wide. They are also equipped with vertical exhaust stacks. Because they were completely rebuilt, theses busses are in good condition, and only someone who knows whats going on would be able to tell that they are 20+ years old.

4701-4804 - TMC RTS busses, ranging from 1988-1992. Bought new.

All of the above RTS busses use Detroit Diesel 6v92 engines. Disney is working on replacing the older engines with new, cleaner versions of the 6v92, that will eliminate the smoke.

4805-4814 - NovaBUS RTS busses, bought new in 1994. These busses are equipped with Detroit Diesel Series 50 engines, and a vertical exhaust stack.

4815-4832 - NovaBUS LFS busses, built in 2000. Leased.
4833-4861 - NovaBUS LFS busses, built in 2001. Leased.
4862-4888 - NovaBUS LFS busses, currently being built. Expected delivery date of January, 2003. All LFS busses are equipped with Detroit Diesel Series 40 engines with a transmission retarter.

The LFS features a low floor interior. There are NO steps on this bus. This bus is also able to Kneel, and tilt. This means that both the front and rear doors can be lowered by 4", bringing them closer to the ground. Combined with a curb, this can mean near zero depth entry.

Seating our standard floor busses is 45. The most amount of seats that the LFS can accommodate is 39 due to wheel wells. However, Disney elected to increase the aisle space by having the main platform seats on the perimiter. This brings our seating down to 35. Although we eliminated 4 seats, the interior space was increased by quite a bit to allow for strollers and such.

In regards to the SuperBus... (the tractor-trailer setup), I was informed that due to maintenance and safety issues it was permanently discontinued quite a while ago.

In regards to alternate fuels... Disney did test a few alternate fuels awhile ago, however currently, alternate fuel technology is not where it needs to be. In real life... alternate fuel busses end up spending more time in the shop, than on the road. They are very expensive to run and maintain, and are prone to frequent shutdowns. And, in reality, today's diesel engines are 80% cleaner than those of just 5 years ago. With proper maintanance, a diesel engine of today is just as clean as a CNG engine, and is far more reliable and economical.

In regards to theming... Unfortunetly, that is something that we do not have control over. Our wonderful Legal department has put a very tight watch over that. We are not allowed to "Wrap" our busses, and have characters on them. (However, for unbeknownst reasons, outside bus companies are allowed to.) This is what a wrapped LYNX bus looks like (LYNX is Orlando's public transit)

We even dabbled with putting Mickey ears on the upper rear tail lights of the new LFS busses (4815), however, we recieved complaints by a religious group that it made Mickey look like the devil. So, we're not allowed to do that, either. Unfortunetly, theming the busses to make them more exciting isn't as possible as we'd like to hope.



In regards to a Bus Timer type system... As great of an idea as it is... unfortunetly, it would not work with how Walt Disney World works. Our system is a very dynamic and ever changing system. (See my other thread for details on MOD and Flex) Even if you could get by the fact that busses are dispatched dynamically on the fly (which means you wouldnt know what bus is going where till it gets there)... you still have to deal with busses don't always follow the same pre determined route. Instead of making things easier, it would just cause chaos, and nightmares for the drivers. (Just my opinion, of course)


I'm not going to respond to service issues in this post... however, you can read about our new dispatching system in my other post (link in above post) It's 5:20am, and I think I'm going to head to bed.

 

[Brian430]

The biggest problem with the busses?: That WDW needs so many of them in the 1st place because they have over developed their property to an alarming degree.

I don't even want to phathom what those roadways will look like once their new 5,600-room value resort opens near Downtown Disney. Let's assume the average room will be holding three guests - that's an additional 13,440 people who will need to use WDW's-already choked roadways (based on an 80 percent occupancy rate, or 4,480 rooms filled).

Half may drive, which would place an additional 2,240 cars on the road! The other half will need to rely on the buses. How many more busses do you think it will take to shuttle 6,720 people to the attractions every day? My guess is between 50 to 100 additional busses belching fumes and further snarling traffic.

Has anyone noticed what traffic near CBR, OKW and DTD has looks like already? The intersection leading to OKW is a total smog-filled mess.

Does anyone think a more efficient dispatch system can solve this problem?

If Disney wants to continue this pace of urban-style development they should also invest in their infrastructure. They should also take better advantage the amount of space they have (or had) and spread out those developments.

But as I said before, WDW is running out of land, and is exhibiting signs of urban setting - complete with an over-burdened public transporation system.

I guess that adds a certain element of theming to Downtown Disney... But then again, I can get that anywhere.

- B