Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

It doesn't seem like he (David's) can....which is odd.

Here's my rough math, just for March.

2500 reservations/month
March = was closed for 1/2 the month so let's just even it out and say that in March, there were 1250 reservations left that were cancelled due to the closure.

15 days left in March (calendar days, not working days). 13-15 employees? Let's go with 13 employees.

So, 13 employees to handle 1250 reservations (since in March, we knew they would be closed to March 31st). That's a little less than 100 reservations per person to handle in 15 days (ok, let's take out the weekends and make it 9 days. So 11 reservations per person per day.

I don't know. I don't see how they (David's) can't have organized records of which owners they matched up with which renters and their user year/points used. It seems to be a simple Excel Spreadsheet (well, multiple)....

Then give each of them a personalized solution.
From his own email he stated he has 42 employees.

I own a software business, and for this reason, I just see the confusion/roadblock reaction from David as a software issue. Some of this is supported IMO in the responses people posted on this thread. It doesn't matter really, it's just my opinion, and I know many disagree.
 
Smoke and mirrors. Like the Wizard of Oz pushing buttons and pulling levers behind a curtain.

I can pull up an intermediary agreement email from them from last year. It specifically lists how many points are in my annual allotment, my UY, the number of points that are current, the number that are banked and the number that I was willing to borrow to complete a reservation. If I can pull up that email, why can’t they? Who prints this stuff out without keeping a digital copy, too?
Again, it might exist in a contract/agreement on paper or digitally -- can he push a button and produce a report? If he could do that IMO this would be flowing more smoothly for him.
 
Again, it might exist in a contract/agreement on paper or digitally -- can he push a button and produce a report? If he could do that IMO this would be flowing more smoothly for him.
He doesn’t need a full report in order to look up the information for that single owner whom he is asking to re-book a reservation. It would not be that difficult to look up that intermediary agreement email for the owner who booked for @SageG. It’s not a matter of “can’t”, it’s a matter of “won’t”.
 
He doesn’t need a full report in order to look up the information for that single owner whom he is asking to re-book a reservation. It would not be that difficult to look up that intermediary agreement email for the owner who booked for @SageG. It’s not a matter of “can’t”, it’s a matter of “won’t”.
I agree. Though the specific rep from David's that I was speaking with was trying to be helpful, it was clear management wasn't that interested in fixing things for me despite me entertaining rebooking even if my only ask was understanding the flexibility of the underlying points for my reservation.

I even mentioned that the chargeback route would be my alternative approach if this didn't work and they still didn't jump at the opportunity of fixing my reservation for me. They instead offered up the voucher (details weren't available at that time, only that they were being worked out) and said the voucher would be much more flexible for me than trying to rebook using the current points I rented since the expiration of those points might be much more limiting than the voucher.
 

What you have stated is absolutely not the case. Those of us who are Owners and Rent have bent over backwards to meet the needs of OUR Renters even if we had to take a loss because that is what you do. PERIOD.

Don’t make us out to be greedy and self serving when it’s not even remotely the case. And furthermore, David’s workforce size has zero to do with the ability to make one’s customers whole. He could easily send an email instructing his crew to provide customer recovery even if he stands to lose a few $$$$$.

The ones that won’t refund are within their right to do so as they have not been made whole either. Why should they have to return the $$$ when He’s still keeping what rightfully belongs to them and won’t even issue the refund back to the Renter but only willing to offer a so called voucher not worth the nothingness it’s printed on?

It’s almost like “the nerve of the Owner to want to be made whole”while they are only interested in doing what David did, Protecting their assets at all cost.

All this makes some people realize is that they can now cut the middleman out.

This is all my opinion though, so take it for what it is worth 😉

Some have, some haven't. I suspect a lot of renters are hearing that they are stuck from their private owners, but the owners aren't admitting it. Use year happens. Not all renters can rebook when the owner has points available.
 
If you stay home, the owner would still be charged the full points cost unless they found out you didn't check in and could cancel the rest of the reservation, but then those points would be put in holding.

As I understand it, once it is check in day you get no refunds of any days. So if an owner were to find out the renter never checked in there is no way for them to cancel the rest of the reservation and get points back for the remaining days...not even holding points. I'm pretty sure the cancellation rule says if you cancel the reservation between 30 - 1 days before the points go into holding. If you cancel the day of or are a no show there is no point refund given.
 
From his own email he stated he has 42 employees.

I own a software business, and for this reason, I just see the confusion/roadblock reaction from David as a software issue. Some of this is supported IMO in the responses people posted on this thread. It doesn't matter really, it's just my opinion, and I know many disagree.

Wait, 42 employees?! Dang, that is a lot.
 
I'm not convinced David's emails are actually not just mass emails to appear he's working hard on a solution... And after he gets all the information next steps are coming... Stalling?? Perhaps just fighting sea of chargebacks.
 
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I wonder if it would help to think of David's business as being comprised of two primary services:
  • Brokerage
  • Insurance
The Brokerage is what provided many if the services we think of as any broker, matchmaking, setting/creating a marketplace, providing contracts, setting a price, etc.

David's took this a step further though and added, promoted and marketed the insurance aspect, which was primarily directed at the renters. Many prospective renters were concerned that they would show up and the rental would not be valid/honored. David's saw a business opportunity to mitigate that risk by providing insurance in the form of a rate premium that would cover the risk that the owner, for whatever reason, didn't honor the contract leaving the renter without a room.

However, while he may have understood and managed the brokerage side fine, he appears to have been out of his element on the insurance side. While the only risk he thought he was covering was the owner cancelling or the reservation being cancelled due to the owner's actions (not paying MF's etc.), insurance is a tricky business and there is a reason it is usually highly regulated. It requires the business to understand all of the risks, contemplate them throughout their contracts and set aside reserves to cover the risks. It appears that David's may have set aside funds to cover his known risks (i.e. owner cancelling) but clearly missed the risk that Disney might cancel. Because of that, he obviously did not put aside funds to cover that risk.

While it is true that no one may have contemplated Disney mass cancelling reservations, by getting into the business of providing the insurance he really needed to have. As others have pointed out, what would have happened if one of the resorts burned down? While DVC may have been reimbursed for rebuilding, what would happen to the reservations for members and how would that have impacted the rentals? This was not considered.

The harsh view of a competitive marketplace is that if he is facing catastrophic losses due to misunderstanding the risk, going out of business may be the right macroeconomic answer. If the brokerage and insurance model is still a profitable one going forward, then the marketplace response would be that someone else would fill the void. Poorly run businesses go out of business all the time. It is the nature of the capitalist economy. While everyone would probably be better off if he somehow stayed in business in order to mitigate the losses, based on his responses to the issue, the lack of trust with significant poprtions of the owners and renters as well as his original inability to price and reserve his risk, he may not be able to continue.

One of the most anti-capitalist and dangerous sentiments I have heard is that businesses have a right to make a profit. They do not. All businesses have a right to try and make a profit. If they are successful they should be applauded. But if they are not, they should fail. Just as importantly, if a business is making significant profits, a competitive marketplace would expect other competitors to jump in and eventually force prices lower down to some level where the strongest will survive. Of course, that sentiment should be applied to businesses large and small, but that is a topic for a different thread.

The bottom line is that he didn't set aside reserves for this risk and therefore probably does not have the funds to cover all of the renters who believe the contract says they should be reimbursed as well as the owners who also believe their contract says they should be paid, even if a bankruptcy court takes his personal possessions.

Retrospectively, some (many?) people are almost certainly going to get screwed.

Prospectively, it will be very interesting to see what happens to the rental market. In theory, the risk of Disney cancelling needs to get priced into the equation, since it doesn't appear that anyone (owners, brokers, renters) have included that in their decisions to date. While renters have considered the risk of the owner cancelling and either paying insurance through a broker against this risk or accepting it and renting direct without the protection, it doesn't appear that they have included mass cancellations by Disney in their thought process.

  • If owners take on the risk, then they will need to raise the price in order to make it worthwhile or the supply side will dry up, driving up the price, perhaps to a non-competitive level with Disney direct.
  • Alternatively, if renters have to take on the risk, they are going to want a much better discount to take on that additional risk, lowering the price to the point where the supply side will also dry up. If someone offers insurance, either in the David's model or as cancel for any reason from a real insurer, that insurance will most likely be very pricey if available at all and therefore also have the affect of raising the renter's total cost for the rental.

I suppose it is possible that buyers and sellers will disappear in the same ration as to keep the price the same, but that doesn't seem likely. Not sure what that pricing impact will be, but I find it hard to believe that it will be status quo. Someone is taking on a previously non-contemplated risk. perhaps it will be negligible but I can't imagine renters viewing non-cancellable reservations that get impacted only if they cancel as the same as taking on the risk of Disney cancelling, either direct or through a broker.

Of course, it may be hard to measure this affect if the economy doesn't recover and that impacts travel in general.
 
I wonder if it would help to think of David's business as being comprised of two primary services:
  • Brokerage
  • Insurance
The Brokerage is what provided many if the services we think of as any broker, matchmaking, setting/creating a marketplace, providing contracts, setting a price, etc.

David's took this a step further though and added, promoted and marketed the insurance aspect, which was primarily directed at the renters. Many prospective renters were concerned that they would show up and the rental would not be valid/honored. David's saw a business opportunity to mitigate that risk by providing insurance in the form of a rate premium that would cover the risk that the owner, for whatever reason, didn't honor the contract leaving the renter without a room.

However, while he may have understood and managed the brokerage side fine, he appears to have been out of his element on the insurance side. While the only risk he thought he was covering was the owner cancelling or the reservation being cancelled due to the owner's actions (not paying MF's etc.), insurance is a tricky business and there is a reason it is usually highly regulated. It requires the business to understand all of the risks, contemplate them throughout their contracts and set aside reserves to cover the risks. It appears that David's may have set aside funds to cover his known risks (i.e. owner cancelling) but clearly missed the risk that Disney might cancel. Because of that, he obviously did not put aside funds to cover that risk.

While it is true that no one may have contemplated Disney mass cancelling reservations, by getting into the business of providing the insurance he really needed to have. As others have pointed out, what would have happened if one of the resorts burned down? While DVC may have been reimbursed for rebuilding, what would happen to the reservations for members and how would that have impacted the rentals? This was not considered.

The harsh view of a competitive marketplace is that if he is facing catastrophic losses due to misunderstanding the risk, going out of business may be the right macroeconomic answer. If the brokerage and insurance model is still a profitable one going forward, then the marketplace response would be that someone else would fill the void. Poorly run businesses go out of business all the time. It is the nature of the capitalist economy. While everyone would probably be better off if he somehow stayed in business in order to mitigate the losses, based on his responses to the issue, the lack of trust with significant poprtions of the owners and renters as well as his original inability to price and reserve his risk, he may not be able to continue.

One of the most anti-capitalist and dangerous sentiments I have heard is that businesses have a right to make a profit. They do not. All businesses have a right to try and make a profit. If they are successful they should be applauded. But if they are not, they should fail. Just as importantly, if a business is making significant profits, a competitive marketplace would expect other competitors to jump in and eventually force prices lower down to some level where the strongest will survive. Of course, that sentiment should be applied to businesses large and small, but that is a topic for a different thread.

The bottom line is that he didn't set aside reserves for this risk and therefore probably does not have the funds to cover all of the renters who believe the contract says they should be reimbursed as well as the owners who also believe their contract says they should be paid, even if a bankruptcy court takes his personal possessions.

Retrospectively, some (many?) people are almost certainly going to get screwed.

Prospectively, it will be very interesting to see what happens to the rental market. In theory, the risk of Disney cancelling needs to get priced into the equation, since it doesn't appear that anyone (owners, brokers, renters) have included that in their decisions to date. While renters have considered the risk of the owner cancelling and either paying insurance through a broker against this risk or accepting it and renting direct without the protection, it doesn't appear that they have included mass cancellations by Disney in their thought process.

  • If owners take on the risk, then they will need to raise the price in order to make it worthwhile or the supply side will dry up, driving up the price, perhaps to a non-competitive level with Disney direct.
  • Alternatively, if renters have to take on the risk, they are going to want a much better discount to take on that additional risk, lowering the price to the point where the supply side will also dry up. If someone offers insurance, either in the David's model or as cancel for any reason from a real insurer, that insurance will most likely be very pricey if available at all and therefore also have the affect of raising the renter's total cost for the rental.

I suppose it is possible that buyers and sellers will disappear in the same ration as to keep the price the same, but that doesn't seem likely. Not sure what that pricing impact will be, but I find it hard to believe that it will be status quo. Someone is taking on a previously non-contemplated risk. perhaps it will be negligible but I can't imagine renters viewing non-cancellable reservations that get impacted only if they cancel as the same as taking on the risk of Disney cancelling, either direct or through a broker.

Of course, it may be hard to measure this affect if the economy doesn't recover and that impacts travel in general.
I don't see prices being paid to the owners going lower when they have to pay the high maintenance fees. After this mess any owner who consistently has excess points they need to rent most likely would sell some of their contracts to get to the level they only now need. This in turn will make less points available to rent on the secondary market ceeating a shortage.
 
I don't see prices being paid to the owners going lower when they have to pay the high maintenance fees. After this mess any owner who consistently has excess points they need to rent most likely would sell some of their contracts to get to the level they only now need. This in turn will make less points available to rent on the secondary market ceeating a shortage.
I agree that may happen. We might see the same price point but with far fewer actual rentals. Works on an individual market where renters and owners work directly. It will be interesting to see if the reduction in volume makes the broker business still worthwhile, especially if no one is paying for the "insurance" and the only real service being provided is the brokerage.

I also have to believe that renters are not going to want to pay the same price tomorrow that they pay today if they have to take on the additional risk of the resort closing. I have no idea what that price difference would be, but buying a product where I am in control of whether I lose my money or not versus having someone else potentially in charge are two different things.

Of course the same goes for owners. that's why I have to believe that it will get priced in somehow or the market may significantly dry up. I don't believe it will be considered the same value as before by renters.

There is a range of prices that is controlled on the low end by what price owners are willing to take and on the high end by what the direct alternatives are. If the economy does not rebound quickly, in a year or two if demand for vacations to Disney (and elsewhere) is down, then the price will need to reflect that as well. Either due to Disney more aggressively discounting the direct price or people deciding to stay in values or mods and not want to pay the premium for deluxe (which would lead to the discounted direct pricing as well).
 
So, if the resort is open, and the room you paid for available for check in, and you decide not to go, I am not understanding how it isn’t a default on your part?

The same way people are getting a refund for their MNSSHP tickets right now - and 125% future cruise credit even if they cancelled their cruise before Disney did under contracts they signed. Both cases it is clear that they are nonredundable (or only partially) when people decide not to go. Disney has a history of being especially accomodating when things are out of the ordinary. That's all. They're defaulting as well but are being treated as if they are not. It was worth asking.
 
So I take it from some of these messages people are not getting there money back? What happens if they can’t pay the 25% to the owners and they then cancel the reservations. Have a aulani reservation for July from the looks of it I would want it open rather then trying to get a refund.
 
The same way people are getting a refund for their MNSSHP tickets right now - and 125% future cruise credit even if they cancelled their cruise before Disney did under contracts they signed. Both cases it is clear that they are nonredundable (or only partially) when people decide not to go. Disney has a history of being especially accomodating when things are out of the ordinary. That's all. They're defaulting as well but are being treated as if they are not. It was worth asking.

The difference though is those guests booked with Disney, the company, who has decided to amend things.

You rented a private reservation from an individual for a savings that gave you much stricter cancellation rules than had you gone directly with Disney.

I agree it never hurts to ask if the broker would be willing to do anything to help, even when it is the renter who wants to cancel.
 
So I take it from some of these messages people are not getting there money back? What happens if they can’t pay the 25% to the owners and they then cancel the reservations. Have a aulani reservation for July from the looks of it I would want it open rather then trying to get a refund.
I'm assume you are referring to renters? No renters are not getting their money back from David. They are being issued a travel voucher for future travel when a renter's reservation is cancelled due to the pandemic. Terms of the voucher are not favorable to the renter. Terms of the voucher are posted earlier on this thread and, I assume, will be in an email that will be sent to you from David if your reservation is cancelled.
 
So I take it from some of these messages people are not getting there money back? What happens if they can’t pay the 25% to the owners and they then cancel the reservations. Have a aulani reservation for July from the looks of it I would want it open rather then trying to get a refund.

There are some owners who have not been paid the rest of what they are owed.

The contract doesn’t allow for owners to cancel and if they do, they risk potential issues,

But, there is a chance an owner may choose to do it anyway, and return funds to the broker just to be done...or cancel and force broker to go after them if they feel they won’t get full payment.
 
I wonder if it would help to think of David's business as being comprised of two primary services:
  • Brokerage
  • Insurance
The Brokerage is what provided many if the services we think of as any broker, matchmaking, setting/creating a marketplace, providing contracts, setting a price, etc.

David's took this a step further though and added, promoted and marketed the insurance aspect, which was primarily directed at the renters. Many prospective renters were concerned that they would show up and the rental would not be valid/honored. David's saw a business opportunity to mitigate that risk by providing insurance in the form of a rate premium that would cover the risk that the owner, for whatever reason, didn't honor the contract leaving the renter without a room.

However, while he may have understood and managed the brokerage side fine, he appears to have been out of his element on the insurance side. While the only risk he thought he was covering was the owner cancelling or the reservation being cancelled due to the owner's actions (not paying MF's etc.), insurance is a tricky business and there is a reason it is usually highly regulated. It requires the business to understand all of the risks, contemplate them throughout their contracts and set aside reserves to cover the risks. It appears that David's may have set aside funds to cover his known risks (i.e. owner cancelling) but clearly missed the risk that Disney might cancel. Because of that, he obviously did not put aside funds to cover that risk.

While it is true that no one may have contemplated Disney mass cancelling reservations, by getting into the business of providing the insurance he really needed to have. As others have pointed out, what would have happened if one of the resorts burned down? While DVC may have been reimbursed for rebuilding, what would happen to the reservations for members and how would that have impacted the rentals? This was not considered.

The harsh view of a competitive marketplace is that if he is facing catastrophic losses due to misunderstanding the risk, going out of business may be the right macroeconomic answer. If the brokerage and insurance model is still a profitable one going forward, then the marketplace response would be that someone else would fill the void. Poorly run businesses go out of business all the time. It is the nature of the capitalist economy. While everyone would probably be better off if he somehow stayed in business in order to mitigate the losses, based on his responses to the issue, the lack of trust with significant poprtions of the owners and renters as well as his original inability to price and reserve his risk, he may not be able to continue.

One of the most anti-capitalist and dangerous sentiments I have heard is that businesses have a right to make a profit. They do not. All businesses have a right to try and make a profit. If they are successful they should be applauded. But if they are not, they should fail. Just as importantly, if a business is making significant profits, a competitive marketplace would expect other competitors to jump in and eventually force prices lower down to some level where the strongest will survive. Of course, that sentiment should be applied to businesses large and small, but that is a topic for a different thread.

The bottom line is that he didn't set aside reserves for this risk and therefore probably does not have the funds to cover all of the renters who believe the contract says they should be reimbursed as well as the owners who also believe their contract says they should be paid, even if a bankruptcy court takes his personal possessions.

Retrospectively, some (many?) people are almost certainly going to get screwed.

Prospectively, it will be very interesting to see what happens to the rental market. In theory, the risk of Disney cancelling needs to get priced into the equation, since it doesn't appear that anyone (owners, brokers, renters) have included that in their decisions to date. While renters have considered the risk of the owner cancelling and either paying insurance through a broker against this risk or accepting it and renting direct without the protection, it doesn't appear that they have included mass cancellations by Disney in their thought process.

  • If owners take on the risk, then they will need to raise the price in order to make it worthwhile or the supply side will dry up, driving up the price, perhaps to a non-competitive level with Disney direct.
  • Alternatively, if renters have to take on the risk, they are going to want a much better discount to take on that additional risk, lowering the price to the point where the supply side will also dry up. If someone offers insurance, either in the David's model or as cancel for any reason from a real insurer, that insurance will most likely be very pricey if available at all and therefore also have the affect of raising the renter's total cost for the rental.

I suppose it is possible that buyers and sellers will disappear in the same ration as to keep the price the same, but that doesn't seem likely. Not sure what that pricing impact will be, but I find it hard to believe that it will be status quo. Someone is taking on a previously non-contemplated risk. perhaps it will be negligible but I can't imagine renters viewing non-cancellable reservations that get impacted only if they cancel as the same as taking on the risk of Disney cancelling, either direct or through a broker.

Of course, it may be hard to measure this affect if the economy doesn't recover and that impacts travel in general.
I think the general flaw in that you posted here is that IMO David never promoted any type of "insurance" he simply stated in multiple places and touted all the time that renting with him was "safer." He was a "safer" avenue over renting directly from an owner. David never said he offered insurance of any type. His contract states the opposite with renters that he doesn't offer insurance and he recommended people get insurance for their trips. (not pointing the finger at renters or looking to rehash this conversation -- just what David's contract says)

On those occasions when an owner did cancel and left a renter without a room reservation, David stepped in and covered the renters room expense. This is a very different situation from offering "insurance."

In retrospect maybe David should have had a bond of some type. Maybe renters will demand to be better "insured" only time with tell. In the meantime, if I were a renter, I would not be willing to sign a non-refundable agreement in the event that DVCM or Disney closes the resorts. I think most renters can live with the reservation being non-refundable if they default. But, this idea that when it's not the renters fault they lose their vacation money doesn't fly, and as an owner who rents points, it doesn't fly with me either.
 
I think the general flaw in that you posted here is that IMO David never promoted any type of "insurance" he simply stated in multiple places and touted all the time that renting with him was "safer." He was a "safer" avenue over renting directly from an owner. David never said he offered insurance of any type. His contract states the opposite with renters that he doesn't offer insurance and he recommended people get insurance for their trips. (not pointing the finger at renters or looking to rehash this conversation -- just what David's contract says)

On those occasions when an owner did cancel and left a renter without a room reservation, David stepped in and covered the renters room expense. This is a very different situation from offering "insurance."

In retrospect maybe David should have had a bond of some type. Maybe renters will demand to be better "insured" only time with tell. In the meantime, if I were a renter, I would not be willing to sign a non-refundable agreement in the event that DVCM or Disney closes the resorts. I think most renters can live with the reservation being non-refundable if they default. But, this idea that when it's not the renters fault they lose their vacation money doesn't fly, and as an owner who rents points, it doesn't fly with me either.
I believe we’re saying the same thing when it comes to renters not wanting to sign an agreement that puts their reservation at risk if it is cancellable for any other reason than their own choice. I believe the price most people would be willing to accept that risk is not one that owners would be willing to provide at.

I still think it is valid to look at the guarantee he provided as a type of risk mitigation where the higher cost reflects a type of insurance against that risk but can understand if others don’t. Thinking of it that way is where he went wrong. He only considered the risk of the owner cancelling and therefore wrote his contracts that way. If he had thought through it more carefully he would have thought about it more broadly and therefore written his contracts that way. I believe he ended up in the trip insurance business and may not have completely appreciated all that meant.
 
In retrospect maybe David should have had a bond of some type. Maybe renters will demand to be better "insured" only time with tell. In the meantime, if I were a renter, I would not be willing to sign a non-refundable agreement in the event that DVCM or Disney closes the resorts. I think most renters can live with the reservation being non-refundable if they default. But, this idea that when it's not the renters fault they lose their vacation money doesn't fly, and as an owner who rents points, it doesn't fly with me either.

But plenty of people will. Disney room rates for a BWV room start at something like $500 a night. A rental started at, what? a little over $200 a night. DVC rental was never a good deal for someone who couldn't afford to eat the cost if they had to cancel. Kid breaks a leg the day before you leave. You get the flu right before you are about to board a plane. Grandma dies. Your spouse walks out the door. Those aren't cancellations that are your fault, but they still are non-refundable. I suspect most renters didn't buy insurance (not that insurance will pay out in this case) because they were willing to accept the risk that if they got the flu on Friday before a Saturday flight to Disney they'd just be out the money.
 



















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