Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

[cmrdgrs]

I believe I have read somewhere that David is a DVC owner himself. Thus, I think he should have at least decent knowledge of the system. In fact, he might even know the system so well that he can use it to his/his business' advantage, which doesn't necessarily align with the best interests of other owners or renters.

LAX

I don't doubt that David has a very good working knowledge of the DVC system.

What I meant in response to the OP was I'm not sure if David does or does not know, for every reservation made, what type of points were used (i.e. banked, borrowed or current UY, as well as, home resort used to book from the owner).

I say this because someone earlier in the thread posted an email from David asking for specifics from the owner about the points the owner could use to rebook and asking for these details.

I could be completely wrong, but it almost seems that a-point-was-a-point-was-a-point in certain situations (probably when booked in the 7 month window) when the reservation was booked. If it wasn't that way, David might be able to offer better and more flexible solutions and wouldn't be just holding everyone hostage with the terrible terms of his voucher.

Again, I know nothing about his operation, I could be completely wrong about his software and the type of reports he can pull out of his software.

If I was a broker, caught up in all of this, I wouldn't be doing most of the things that David is doing. IMO his actions are damaging his reputation and his business. It seems that he has lost the trust of his customers and owners who rent points with him.

 

[Sandisw]

I don't doubt that David has a very good working knowledge of the DVC system.

What I meant in response to the OP was I'm not sure if David does or does not know, for every reservation made, what type of points were used (i.e. banked, borrowed or current UY, as well as, home resort used to book from the owner).

I say this because someone earlier in the thread posted an email from David asking for specifics from the owner about the points the owner could use to rebook and asking for these details.

I could be completely wrong, but it almost seems that a-point-was-a-point-was-a-point in certain situations (probably when booked in the 7 month window) when the reservation was booked. If it wasn't that way, David might be able to offer better and more flexible solutions and wouldn't be just holding everyone hostage with the terrible terms of his voucher.

Again, I know nothing about his operation, I could be completely wrong about his software and the type of reports he can pull out of his software.

If I was a broker, caught up in all of this, I wouldn't be doing most of the things that David is doing. IMO his actions are damaging his reputation and his business. It seems that he has lost the trust of his customers and owners who rent points with him.

I can tell you they do know exactly what the status of the points. We have to give them all that information

He may not want to disclose the information with a renter because it’s not really part of his contract with them.

 

[cmrdgrs]

I can tell you they do know exactly what the status of the points. We have to give them all that information

He may not want to disclose the information with a renter because it’s not really part of his contract with them.

Could be. As I said, I don't know. I'm sure he asks for this information at the time of booking, maybe he can, maybe he can't produce reports on the stats. I certainly do not understand his actions at all.

Hard to say why he is doing what he is doing. His actions make sense to him and I guess for him that's all that's important.

 

[suemom2kay]

The contract the renter signed accepted a no refunds, or changes clause. This is why they needed insurance if they were not happy with this risk. It’s harsh, but renters could have taken steps to remove this risk and have to take responsibility for not doing it.

The renters paid for a room type at a specific resort for specific dates. If they can't check in to the room because it is no longer available, then David owes them a REFUND not a voucher. David's for years marketed his no risk service and protection of the renter from unscrupulous owners cancelling their reservation (either willingly or through default), but now he is scrambling. He is obstructing people from solving their own issues which is the opposite of what a broker (or travel agent - not sure what he is really) should be doing.

As for a no refunds contract, David's breached that contract the minute Disney closed the resort. Therefore, the chargebacks should go through. Just my opinion but the contract is breached or "frustrated" learned that word on this thread.

I have several rentals this year and believe that the onus of the impact of the resort closures is on me the owner. If I rented you an apartment and the building burned down before you moved in, I would owe you back your rent and security deposit. If you were already there, I couldn't collect rent from you while the apartment was not there.

Putting all the responsibility on the renters to get insurance makes no sense IMHO. This is not a renter needing to cancel a vacation. This is a resort closure.

 

[Amymouse13]

Honestly this pot stirrer was just trying to do that... In my case both owners cancelled my reservations (one I believe was trying to rebook before this voucher scheme, but that is gone now). Cancelled reservation = refund. I underlined that part of contract in my chargeback. Heck for one David's was nice enough to put that in an email (was one that planned to rebook me). I'm guessing finding insurance for covid-19 from now one will be as likely as a unicorn (and probably any pandemic or epidemic)

 

[McCrae]

The renters paid for a room type at a specific resort for specific dates. If they can't check in to the room because it is no longer available, then David owes them a REFUND not a voucher. David's for years marketed his no risk service and protection of the renter from unscrupulous owners cancelling their reservation (either willingly or through default), but now he is scrambling. He is obstructing people from solving their own issues which is the opposite of what a broker (or travel agent - not sure what he is really) should be doing.

As for a no refunds contract, David's breached that contract the minute Disney closed the resort. Therefore, the chargebacks should go through. Just my opinion but the contract is breached or "frustrated" learned that word on this thread.

I have several rentals this year and believe that the onus of the impact of the resort closures is on me the owner. If I rented you an apartment and the building burned down before you moved in, I would owe you back your rent and security deposit. If you were already there, I couldn't collect rent from you while the apartment was not there.

Putting all the responsibility on the renters to get insurance makes no sense IMHO. This is not a renter needing to cancel a vacation. This is a resort closure.

The contract the renter signed with David’s has nothing to do with the Owners, it’s between the renters and David’s. . Insurance was available, it was a choice not to take it.

It’s far from clear that credit card charge backs will be successful. It has been mentioned on this thread that a PayPal did not side with a renter over this issue.

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

If you're able to use the extended points for yourself or rent them to someone else privately, I think you might have to return the 70% to David's to avoid running afoul of "double dipping" rules. Characterizing using the extended points as going on a FREE vacation would seem to violate that rule.

There is no such rule.

Poor choice of words. I didn't mean to imply that DVC had a no double dipping "rule." I was referring to an element of timeshare laws that others here have referred to.

Before anyone points out that there's no such law, I admit that I'm only aware of it because some random person on the internet posted about it here.

 

[disneypharm]

The contract the renter signed accepted a no refunds, or changes clause. This is why they needed insurance if they were not happy with this risk. It’s harsh, but renters could have taken steps to remove this risk and have to take responsibility for not doing it.

You and a few owners in this thread need to stop blaming the renters for this mess!! Most renters knew that the contract is non-refundable as long as the accommodation was available. Most renters have bought trip insurance (from US and not UK which some seem to have coverage for pandemic - as stated by some posts here) that now conveniently claim that a pandemic is not covered. The renter's contract clearly states that if accommodation is not available, a refund will be provided. No one in their right mind is willing to pay for a accommodation if they thought that there is a possibility that their room might not be available.
Now, Davids wants renters to sign a contract that gives them no protection in case of no availability/cancellation. "In the event of a global pandemic, natural disaster, force Majeure or any other event outside the reasonable control of David's Vacation Club Rentals, this Credit remains non-refundable and no modification, cancellations or rebooking will be permitted. "
It seems Disney is now trying to work with owners who might be losing points, so there is a greater chance for them to be able to reuse the points that they have received some payment for (70% or whatever that is!), so hope more owners are willing to help the renters (I know Davids doesn't allow this! but for others who have rented privately, then maybe they can now) instead of them thinking of re-renting the points or telling them to get insurance!

 

[suemom2kay]

From when I almost used David's to rent my points...

• This electronic agreement is made ##### by and between ###### and ##### (together 'DVC Owner') and David's Vacation Club Rentals ('Intermediary').
  1. The DVC Owner requests assistance from the Intermediary for the purpose of finding and managing guests in exchange for an agreed price per rented point payable to the DVC Owner and an agreed commission per rented point payable to the Intermediary.
  2. The DVC Owner and the Intermediary acknowledge that they are completely familiar with the terminology used by the Disney Vacation Club and are fully familiar with the operations and the rules and regulations of the Disney Vacation Club and neither will rely on the other for guidance regarding policies or procedures of the Disney Vacation Club.
  3. The number of points made available for rental by the DVC Owner under this agreement is set out below. The Intermediary has no responsibility for any points not rented to guests during the specified rental year or for any points which expire for any reason whatsoever prior to being rented. This agreement shall cease to be applicable with respect to Intermediary's responsibility to supply DVC Owner with guests seeking rental opportunities after the full number of points available for rental in the specified rental year have been rented or after the end of such specified rental year (with respect to any unrented points). A new Intermediary Agreement may be entered into by the parties after all points available for rental have been rented or the specified rental year has ended.
  4. The Intermediary agrees to be responsible for:
     1. Supplying the DVC Owner with guests who are seeking rental opportunities, as available to Intermediary
     2. Contacting Disney Vacation Club's Owner Services to check availability for guests
     3. Contacting the DVC Owner with eligible guests' rental inquiries
     4. Collecting funds from the guest for a reservation made by the DVC Owner for such guest
     5. Creating and receiving an agreed rental agreement, in form approved by Intermediary, from a reserving guest
     6. Paying the DVC Owner for rented points used to secure reservations, at the price agreed with Intermediary, payable 70% after the reservation is made and 100% of the funds for the reservation have been collected by Intermediary from the guest, and the balance at the time of check-in
     7. Ensuring that a guest's reservation is confirmed to the guest
     8. Providing the DVC Owner with a credit card or other financial information from the guest if the guest elects to add a dining plan, ticket package or other Disney Vacation Plan optional add-on to enable processing of such add-on request by the DVC Owner
  5. The DVC Owner agrees to be responsible for:
     1. Providing the Intermediary with full details on how many points are available for rental in the specified rental year, as noted below
     2. Advising the Intermediary which Home Resort the points belong to, as noted below
     3. Advising the Intermediary which year that the points belong to, as noted below
     4. Advising the Intermediary whether and how many points may be banked or borrowed in order to secure reservations in the specified rental year
     5. Keeping maintenance fees and mortgages payable by the DVC Owner current at all times
     6. Keeping DVC Owner's membership in the Disney Vacation Club current and active so as not to adversely affect any active reservations or potential reservations during the specified rental year
     7. Honoring all reservations made for which funds (partial or full) have been remitted to DVC Owner
     8. Maintaining an active PayPal account with which to receive payment for funds collected by Intermediary with respect to guest reservations
     9. Obtaining a confirmation from Disney Vacation Club with respect to each guest reservation using the information provided by Intermediary to DVC Owner with respect to that guest and then sending that reservation confirmation electronically to Intermediary
     10. Processing all reserved guests' requests for optional add-ons and for specific room requests with Disney Vacation Club and/or Walt Disney Company ("Disney"). A copy of all email confirmations from the Disney Vacation Club and/or Disney with respect to such add-ons must be forwarded to Intermediary for further forwarding to the guest in question.
     11. Processing payment for guests' optional add-on requests using a credit card/financial information obtained by Intermediary from the guest and provided to DVC Owner. DVC Owner will use such credit card/financial information only for the express purpose of processing the add-on requests with Disney Vacation Club and/or Walt Disney Company ("Disney") and not for any other purpose and will otherwise keep such information strictly confidential.
  6. The DVC Owner further agrees and promises:
     1. Not to list for sale, and not to list for rental with another rental agent, the points covered by active reservations or available for rental hereunder during the specified rental year
     2. To keep all Disney Vacation Club maintenance fees, dues and assessments current
     3. To keep all mortgages with respect to the DVC Owner's Disney Vacation Club property current
     4. To keep the DVC Owner's membership in the Disney Vacation Club in good standing
  7. The DVC Owner further agrees with the Intermediary to make full restitution to the Intermediary and a guest with an active reservation for any and all costs related to a cancellation of that reservation caused by or relating to the failure of the DVC Owner to honour the reservation or otherwise not comply with any obligation or responsibility of the DVC Owner under this agreement including, without limitation, any legal fees, costs and expenses associated with the collection of said costs.
  8. The DVC Owner hereby agrees to indemnify Intermediary from and in respect of all losses, costs, damages and claims suffered or incurred by Intermediary as a result of the DVC Owner failing to fulfill any responsibility or comply with any obligation of DVC Owner hereunder.
  9. This agreement shall be governed in all respects by the laws of the Province of Ontario and the laws of Canada applicable therein. All parties hereto agree to submit to the non-exclusive jurisdiction of the courts of Ontario with respect to any disputes relating to, or legal actions brought in respect of, any matters under this agreement.
  10. The DVC Owner represents and warrants that the following information is complete and accurate with respect to the DVC Owner:

So the owner providing restitution to David's "and a guest." Would this allow the owner's to reimburse the guests without fear of David's coming after them? I don't even know if his own contract would allow him to "go after" an owner anyway.

 

[suemom2kay]

The contract the renter signed with David’s has nothing to do with the Owners, it’s between the renters and David’s. . Insurance was available, it was a choice not to take it.

Correct. But David was in breach of his own contract as soon as Disney cancelled the reservation. The owner's have an obligation to David, but that is a whole other discussion and from his contract it is vague if David has a leg to stand on.

It’s far from clear that credit card charge backs will be successful. It has been mentioned on this thread that a PayPal did not side with a renter over this issue.

Paypal prohibits timeshare transactions including rentals. Which further begs David's corporate character into question since he requires a Paypal account for his owners. Not surprised Paypal is no help in light of this violation of their terms. I can't see why CC chargebacks won't go through since the product purchased is not being provided. This is in no way the same as a renter cancelling a reservation due to illness, injury, or other issue. Blaming the renter for not getting insurance has nothing to do with David's obligation to refund due to his breach of the contract for a specific room type at a specific resort on specific dates.

 

[suemom2kay]

Just to add....

If I Book BCV with current Disney World Sun and Fun Promotion, I can get a 1 bedroom villa for $584 + tax per night.

David's Point Rental = $3515
Disney's Cash Ressie = $3285

He is pricing himself right out of business. If his unscrupulous business practices don't get him, his price gouging will. RIP David's

 

[ScubaCat]

Just to add....

If I Book BCV with current Disney World Sun and Fun Promotion, I can get a 1 bedroom villa for $584 + tax per night.

David's Point Rental = $3515
Disney's Cash Ressie = $3285

He is pricing himself right out of business. If his unscrupulous business practices don't get him, his price gouging will. RIP David's

Rental prices are fair. It's what the points are worth to the owners as well. The points charts don't necessarily line up with demand, and the hotels yield depending on such. In fact, summer is a bit less points next year. (and did I mention free parking??)

 

[Sandisw]

Just to add....

If I Book BCV with current Disney World Sun and Fun Promotion, I can get a 1 bedroom villa for $584 + tax per night.

David's Point Rental = $3515
Disney's Cash Ressie = $3285

He is pricing himself right out of business. If his unscrupulous business practices don't get him, his price gouging will. RIP David's

Now add the cost of CFAR insurance and renting is no longer attractive at those rates.

I still believe rental prices will need to come down if Disney continues with decent discounts.

That will be a problem for brokers because he will have to pay owners less or take very little commissio.

 

[suemom2kay]

Rental prices are fair. It's what the points are worth to the owners as well. The points charts don't necessarily line up with demand, and the hotels yield depending on such. In fact, summer is a bit less points next year. (and did I mention free parking??)

I think rental prices are fair in general, but not David's prices. He is up to $19pp (non-premium) and is giving owners the same $14.50 (non-premium) to 15.50. So he raised his commission by $1 pp but kept his payout the same. That puts his commission at about 24%. That is a HUGE commission to be an intermediary. He doesn't do much and clearly offers no protection to the renter and a big mess for owners. I compared apples to apples and Disney beat his price. If the renter paid Premium prices for that summer reservation, it would be $3700 (David's) vs $3285 (CRO). So quite a bit more for a LOT of risk.

 

[suemom2kay]

Now add the cost of CFAR insurance and renting is no longer attractive at those rates.

I still believe rental prices will need to come down if Disney continues with decent discounts.

That will be a problem for brokers because he will have to pay owners less or take very little commissio.

Agreed. Except at greater than or equal to 24% commission he has plenty of wiggle room.

 

[cmrdgrs]

DVC rentals are always in direct competition with Disney CRO reservations. I just had a renter contact me the other day about a rental I have at VGC. I recommended before he commit to a VGC rental, he should really consider a CRO GCH with Disney. More flexibility given the current environment, and right now they have some good deals. It's not that I'm not happy to take the rental, I don't really want to take a rental and have an unhappy "customer" -- but, that's how I think. I want people to feel happy, not taken advantage of. If people don't feel treated fairly they won't be repeat renters. I think DVC rental prices overall are headed for a lower price.

 

[suemom2kay]

DVC rentals are always in direct competition with Disney CRO reservations. I just had a renter contact me the other day about a rental I have at VGC. I recommended before he commit to a VGC rental, he should really consider a CRO GCH with Disney. More flexibility given the current environment, and right now they have some good deals. It's not that I'm not happy to take the rental, I don't really want to take a rental and have an unhappy "customer" -- but, that's how I think. I want people to feel happy, not taken advantage of. If people don't feel treated fairly they won't be repeat renters. I think DVC rental prices overall are headed for a lower price.

I agree with all of this.

 

[Yinn]

Now add the cost of CFAR insurance and renting is no longer attractive at those rates.

I still believe rental prices will need to come down if Disney continues with decent discounts.

That will be a problem for brokers because he will have to pay owners less or take very little commissio.

The fact that he's raised prices but not to the owners means the latter is unlikely. So if he reduces the fees to owners, he'll quickly lose them. At $13.50-14.50/pt, that's already a slim margin over annual dues. If he brings them down hypothetically buy $1/pt, that's a gain of $4-5/pt for most owners.

At those prices, I'll be much more likely to bank my points or splurge on a 2 bedroom. If I'm in a bind with expiring points, maybe I'll rent them out. Otherwise my friends & family will be hearing from me. Want to go to Disney? I have points to use.

 

[McCrae]

The renters paid for a room type at a specific resort for specific dates. If they can't check in to the room because it is no longer available, then David owes them a REFUND not a voucher. David's for years marketed his no risk service and protection of the renter from unscrupulous owners cancelling their reservation (either willingly or through default), but now he is scrambling. He is obstructing people from solving their own issues which is the opposite of what a broker (or travel agent - not sure what he is really) should be doing.

As for a no refunds contract, David's breached that contract the minute Disney closed the resort. Therefore, the chargebacks should go through. Just my opinion but the contract is breached or "frustrated" learned that word on this thread.

I have several rentals this year and believe that the onus of the impact of the resort closures is on me the owner. If I rented you an apartment and the building burned down before you moved in, I would owe you back your rent and security deposit. If you were already there, I couldn't collect rent from you while the apartment was not there.

Putting all the responsibility on the renters to get insurance makes no sense IMHO. This is not a renter needing to cancel a vacation. This is a resort closure.

I hope renters can get refunds from David’s if that is possible under the contract they have with him. I don’t think it is. Early indications are that credit card charge backs may not be successful. We have already read reports on this thread that Pay Pal have rejected a charge back claim after reviewing contract.

Its not clear that in Canada David’s has broken any Pay Pal rules. Pay Pal in the US has different rules to other countries they operate.

The option to take insurance is available and if you decide not to take that option you run a risk that you will lose out. Not taking insurance is a gamble, usually you win, but not always.

David’s recommends renters to take insurance because unexpected things can happen. It’s up to each individual if they decide to follow that advice or not.

 

[yankeesfan123]

This whole “buy insurance” talk has been going on for way too long in this thread and seems completely irrelevant to how David’s is handling the situation, which is what I thought this thread was for.