Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

[Sandisw]

The thing I cant get my head around is why the 30% is being held by David?

Upon making a booking, the renter pays $20 per point for a booking over 7 months in advance. $4.5 per point stays with David and $15.50 is allocated to the owner.

However, only 70% of that $15.50 per point is given to the owner at the point of reservation and 30% is held until the day of check in to ensure that the owner keeps their side of the deal and ensures the booking is upheld.

As the booking is non-refundable, the 30% is paid to the owner regardless of whether or not the renter has checked in.

At this point, David has already received his total fee ($4.5 * points needed for booking) so he has no claim to the 30%.

Even in the contract that we have recently signed with them as an owner, it makes no reference to not being paid the 30% if the resort is not open. It clearly states that an owner will receive the remaining 30% "at the time of check-in".

This indicates that at 3pm on the day of checkin, the balance should be paid to the owner, regardless.

Lets use and example for a booking using 200 points:

David's fee is $900 ($4.50 * 200)
30% of the $15.5 on a 200 point reservation is $930

David will have kept that $930 in account for between 7-11 months, generating interest and helping with cashflow. But like others have said, this money should really be in ESCROW. We do a similar thing in the UK when we rent properties and we store a renters deposit in a TDP Scheme. I was surprised when we realised this wasn't the case with our agreement with David's

If David is refusing the owners their 30%, I would imagine he'll be having a number of lawsuits against him, because legally he has no right whatsoever to withhold it if the day of checkin has passed on the reservation.

Because Davids knows he has a problem with his contract with the renter to potentially refund the money since there is no reservation.

He is saying that because check in didn’t happen, the owner is no longer due the 30% and is now trying to say the entire contract with the owner has been frustrated and therefore, owner owes money back,

He needs that to happen so he can use that money to pay cover the cost of the voucher.

It is a mess for sure, Nothing an owner can do to get that 30% except sue Davids foe it. I think most will just walk away,

 

[disneypharm]

Covid-19 isnt an action or omission by the owner so this clause wouldn't be valid in this instance.

Nowhere in the renters agreement does it say that if accomodation is not secured, a full refund will be given.

The refund is only given in the event that the owner goes against their agreement (i.e cancels the room, doesn't pay their dues or misses mortgage payments causing the room to be cancelled by Disney), in which case, David would refund the renter on full as the 70% plus costs and fees would be re-payable by the owner, as per the agreement the owner has with David.

This has been discussed several times in this thread which is mostly has the owners views. No reservation/accommodation for the renter, then refund. I am sure if Davids thought that they have any chance getting away with not paying, they wouldn't have offered a voucher. I am not going to argue with you about it!

 

[DGsAtBLT]

This has been discussed several times in this thread which is mostly has the owners views. No reservation/accommodation for the renter, then refund. I am sure if Davids thought that they have any chance getting away with not paying, they wouldn't have offered a voucher. I am not going to argue with you about it!

Yeah, I think the lengths they are going through to “help” renters is because they think their contract is not going to hold up with reservations being cancelled so they are trying to prevent people doing things like chargebacks. I believe if they felt their contract was sound they would not risk pissing off their owners, who I’m guessing have a bigger impact on their business than pissed off renters, and they would have left it alone if modifications could not be made to reservations.

I think (from my non lawyer perspective) the most important part of the contract from the renters POV is not the portion that talks about when you’re entitled to a refund, but that it clearly states it’s for a reservation at X resort between X and Y. There’s no reservation anymore.

 

[Sandisw]

This has been discussed several times in this thread which is mostly has the owners views. No reservation/accommodation for the renter, then refund. I am sure if Davids thought that they have any chance getting away with not paying, they wouldn't have offered a voucher. I am not going to argue with you about it!

What owners are saying, though, that the renter may be entitled to a refund from Davids, not the owner, The owner has met all the terms of the contract they have,

His voucher system is because he knows he would be responsible to the renter, and is trying to stop charge backs, while at the same time trying to back out of the contract he has with the owner,

Remember, there are owners on here who have stared they would refund if going to the renter, and Davids has responded that they will be keeping the money, So, even if owners want to refund, Davids has stated renters will not get it.

 

[disneykins]

Lots of angles to this thing and it doesn't sound like there will be any winners.
What would have happened say 6 months ago I, as an owner had rented to someone through Davids and then I didn't make my maintenance payment. My reservation for the renter would be cancelled and David would want my 70% payment back. What was his recourse if I refused?

 

[LawrenceFamily]

This has been discussed several times in this thread which is mostly has the owners views. No reservation/accommodation for the renter, then refund. I am sure if Davids thought that they have any chance getting away with not paying, they wouldn't have offered a voucher. I am not going to argue with you about it!

Bit strong - I'm not arguing with you at all

But I personally don't think a renter has a case in court to get a full refund based on the agreement they signed.

I think David's will be offering a voucher to save their reputation and business. It's a good will gesture as a way to ensure their customers stay happy and continue to use them in the future.

 

[dsnymnkyuncle]

I don't see how either but I know almost nothing about pay pal. And a short time ago I got an email from David (that was supposed to clarify the confusion of their prior email) that states the Disney closed the resorts because the parks were closed. And that as an owner who picked Disney to make these decision I was responsible for it. David did not go to the impossibility or frustration of purpose but to me the thread was implicit. Now I am wondering how the pay pal works and if David could just charge back the 70% I have. This would be a fine to do on top of the possibility of losing points. The yellow highlight was in the original.

"if DVC cancels the reservation due to the parks being closed we will not be able to send the final 30% unless the points are rented to a new guest.

To further explain why we must hold back the 30% if DVC cancels the reservation.
In referring to the Agreement that you the DVC Owner has made with David’s Vacation Club Rentals for the rental of your points. I would like to draw your attention to paragraph 5(g)

1. The DVC Owner agrees to be responsible for: (1-6 deleted by me)
   1. 
      
   2. 
      
   3. 
      
   4. 
      
   5. 
      
   6. 
      
   7. Honoring all reservations made for which funds (partial or full) have been remitted to DVC Owner

When you purchased your real estate interest with the Disney Vacation Club you gave them full rights to make decisions for you as an association member. The Disney Vacation Club decided on behalf of all association members to close the Resorts. Thus as an associate member you agreed to close the resort.

Your issue is with the association and the person you elected to represent you, not with David’s Vacation Club Rentals nor the guest who paid you funds to have a room at a Disney Vacation Club Resort."

The renter did not pay the owner for the rental of points using PayPal , they paid David’s. Any charge back through a credit card and pay pal would be between David’s and the renter.

It is likely David’s made a cash transfer to owner using pay pal. Therefore a credit card charge back through pay pal won’t happen. Still don’t see how David’s would get a payback through Pay pal from an owner.

 

[tubtruck]

Lots of angles to this thing and it doesn't sound like there will be any winners.
What would have happened say 6 months ago I, as an owner had rented to someone through Davids and then I didn't make my maintenance payment. My reservation for the renter would be cancelled and David would want my 70% payment back. What was his recourse if I refused?

I guess he would probably have just sucked it up, the fact someone had not paid their maintenance would mean it was highly likely they would be unable to pay up even if sued.

 

[momincolorado]

Thats interesting as an owner David’s didnt give me the option to refund the renter. He was only willing to give the renter a voucher and wanted to keep for himself any refund I would make.

I don't think the owner was given the option to refund me in this case either. I was informed by David's a couple of weeks back that the points used were expiring and that I would get a voucher, at which point I began to fight for a refund. From what I can tell, they are most worried about the chargebacks. I made it very clear that I am not particularly interested in his voucher scheme; the initial contract in place is for accommodations, which he did not deliver. I am not interested in revising this contract under the current proposed terms. I am VERY interested in walking away from this mess (IMO, the company is incredibly poorly run) as soon as the final resolution has been reached and never use him again. First time using him as I usually rent from a friend.

 

[DGsAtBLT]

My guess is they anticipated any issues they encountered (pre covid) to be limited to a small number of reservations they could fix for that renter and then eat the loss beyond the portion they held, rather than worrying about going after individual owners for relatively small amounts.

 

[McCrae]

.

 

[Minniemoo15]

I don't see how either but I know almost nothing about pay pal. And a short time ago I got an email from David (that was supposed to clarify the confusion of their prior email) that states the Disney closed the resorts because the parks were closed. And that as an owner who picked Disney to make these decision I was responsible for it. David did not go to the impossibility or frustration of purpose but to me the thread was implicit. Now I am wondering how the pay pal works and if David could just charge back the 70% I have. This would be a fine to do on top of the possibility of losing points. The yellow highlight was in the original.

"if DVC cancels the reservation due to the parks being closed we will not be able to send the final 30% unless the points are rented to a new guest.

To further explain why we must hold back the 30% if DVC cancels the reservation.
In referring to the Agreement that you the DVC Owner has made with David’s Vacation Club Rentals for the rental of your points. I would like to draw your attention to paragraph 5(g)

1. The DVC Owner agrees to be responsible for: (1-6 deleted by me)
   1. 
      
   2. 
      
   3. 
      
   4. 
      
   5. 
      
   6. 
      
   7. Honoring all reservations made for which funds (partial or full) have been remitted to DVC Owner

When you purchased your real estate interest with the Disney Vacation Club you gave them full rights to make decisions for you as an association member. The Disney Vacation Club decided on behalf of all association members to close the Resorts. Thus as an associate member you agreed to close the resort.

Your issue is with the association and the person you elected to represent you, not with David’s Vacation Club Rentals nor the guest who paid you funds to have a room at a Disney Vacation Club Resort."

That is...incredible.

I have used Davids as a renter multiple times, and then as an owner when we bought into DVC. I spoke so highly of them to others and recommended them to many friends and family.
I can’t believe how they are treating and alienating their owners. Renters aren’t getting treated well either with this credit that you have one shot to use-it-or-lose-it.

Wow. I almost can’t even believe this is the same company that I have dealt with for years. How disappointing. I definitely will not be doing business with them going forward. Good Will is their biggest asset - they were pretty much universally praised basically everywhere online before this. Seems they have lost quite a bit of that in this mess.

 

[McCrae]

I don't see how either but I know almost nothing about pay pal. And a short time ago I got an email from David (that was supposed to clarify the confusion of their prior email) that states the Disney closed the resorts because the parks were closed. And that as an owner who picked Disney to make these decision I was responsible for it. David did not go to the impossibility or frustration of purpose but to me the thread was implicit. Now I am wondering how the pay pal works and if David could just charge back the 70% I have. This would be a fine to do on top of the possibility of losing points. The yellow highlight was in the original.

"if DVC cancels the reservation due to the parks being closed we will not be able to send the final 30% unless the points are rented to a new guest.

To further explain why we must hold back the 30% if DVC cancels the reservation.
In referring to the Agreement that you the DVC Owner has made with David’s Vacation Club Rentals for the rental of your points. I would like to draw your attention to paragraph 5(g)

1. The DVC Owner agrees to be responsible for: (1-6 deleted by me)
   1. 
      
   2. 
      
   3. 
      
   4. 
      
   5. 
      
   6. 
      
   7. Honoring all reservations made for which funds (partial or full) have been remitted to DVC Owner

When you purchased your real estate interest with the Disney Vacation Club you gave them full rights to make decisions for you as an association member. The Disney Vacation Club decided on behalf of all association members to close the Resorts. Thus as an associate member you agreed to close the resort.

Your issue is with the association and the person you elected to represent you, not with David’s Vacation Club Rentals nor the guest who paid you funds to have a room at a Disney Vacation Club Resort."

I haven’t received this type of email. I was asked if I would be willing to help. I asked about potential liability and received an email from David’s saying I didn’t need to refund the 70%. As far as David‘s were concerned I had completed my contractual obligations.

 

[disneypharm]

Bit strong - I'm not arguing with you at all

But I personally don't think a renter has a case in court to get a full refund based on the agreement they signed.

I think David's will be offering a voucher to save their reputation and business. It's a good will gesture as a way to ensure their customers stay happy and continue to use them in the future.

My apologies but I have read the same discussion over and over again in this thread. I just disagree with your assessment as it is not just a goodwill gesture. He is also trying to avoid all the chargebacks.

 

[Dracula]

I don't think the owner was given the option to refund me in this case either. I was informed by David's a couple of weeks back that the points used were expiring and that I would get a voucher, at which point I began to fight for a refund. From what I can tell, they are most worried about the chargebacks. I made it very clear that I am not particularly interested in his voucher scheme; the initial contract in place is for accommodations, which he did not deliver. I am not interested in revising this contract under the current proposed terms. I am VERY interested in walking away from this mess (IMO, the company is incredibly poorly run) as soon as the final resolution has been reached and never use him again. First time using him as I usually rent from a friend.

Just curious, if this was to happen with points rented from your friend, and David was not involved at all, how would you have worked things out?

 

[LawrenceFamily]

I wonder how many reservations they're dealing with during this period, how many points? How much $ they are expected to refund in total to renters if everyone who has rented is expecting a full refund? At $20 a point, if there's 500 reservations at 200 points, he'd be expected to refund $1m....how big of an operation is David's? There's not many businesses that would be able to just hand that amount of money back to people out of profit.

It does seem a real shame this whole situation - if you look online everywhere and he's good 5* reviews every where. His review page on his website has 623 pages of positive reviews!

It seems as though they are not handling this situation particularly well, but in a blink of an eye, they have gone from a very good business, to one that could be expected to hand out millions in compensation through no fault of their own.

My point is that if Covid-19 wasn't here, everyone on this thread would be singing their praises because they'd be enjoying a brilliant holiday to Disney. It's just really sad and I feel sorry for all parties involved.

 

[DGsAtBLT]

I wonder how many reservations they're dealing with during this period, how many points? How much $ they are expected to refund in total to renters if everyone who has rented is expecting a full refund? At $20 a point, if there's 500 reservations at 200 points, he'd be expected to refund $1m....how big of an operation is David's? There's not many businesses that would be able to just hand that amount of money back to people out of profit.

It does seem a real shame this whole situation - if you look online everywhere and he's good 5* reviews every where. His review page on his website has 623 pages of positive reviews!

It seems as though they are not handling this situation particularly well, but in a blink of an eye, they have gone from a very good business, to one that could be expected to hand out millions in compensation through no fault of their own.

My point is that if Covid-19 wasn't here, everyone on this thread would be singing their praises because they'd be enjoying a brilliant holiday to Disney. It's just really sad and I feel sorry for all parties involved.

Knowing what I know now I do not trust his own website for reviews.

Near the beginning of this he removed reviews from the Facebook page, It was becoming filled with negative reviews. Whoever runs the page also has been deleting anything in comments that are not positive, even legitimate questions that indirectly point out negative aspects of this.

I was always someone who praised them in the past. I’m now wondering how they treated customers who faced issues with their experience, or if for years they have been lucky with little issues coming up that could be blamed on them once reservations had been made (I think that’s plausible). I had good experiences in the past but also nothing going wrong that needed rectifying.

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

When you purchased your real estate interest with the Disney Vacation Club you gave them full rights to make decisions for you as an association member. The Disney Vacation Club decided on behalf of all association members to close the Resorts. Thus as an associate member you agreed to close the resort.

Your issue is with the association and the person you elected to represent you, not with David’s Vacation Club Rentals nor the guest who paid you funds to have a room at a Disney Vacation Club Resort."

Posters here have made a similar case (i.e., that owners are responsible for the closures, even if indirectly). In the end, that may very well be how this all pans out. But the fact that he is flat out telling owners now that they are, essentially in breach of the contract because "they" cancelled the reservation indicates that he may be getting desperate and may start playing hardball to get all of "his" money back from owners.

Wow. I almost can’t even believe this is the same company that I have dealt with for years.

Survival instinct. Every penny he has (not to mention many he's already spent) is on the line.

 

[Madame]

LOL! They are literally reading through this thread and throwing our suppositions at us . They are scrambling to try to save the business and destroying it with their one-size-fits-all ridiculous voucher scheme.

Why in the world are they not looking at which situations are salvageable (eg owner can return funds with points still usable, or owners who can rebook their renter)??? Dealing with those, then seeing which situations are a write off and making renters whole themselves??? They’re all over the map!!! And they’ve had a month to start to sort this out

 

[disneykins]

I wonder how many reservations they're dealing with during this period, how many points? How much $ they are expected to refund in total to renters if everyone who has rented is expecting a full refund? At $20 a point, if there's 500 reservations at 200 points, he'd be expected to refund $1m....how big of an operation is David's? There's not many businesses that would be able to just hand that amount of money back to people out of profit.

It does seem a real shame this whole situation - if you look online everywhere and he's good 5* reviews every where. His review page on his website has 623 pages of positive reviews!

It seems as though they are not handling this situation particularly well, but in a blink of an eye, they have gone from a very good business, to one that could be expected to hand out millions in compensation through no fault of their own.

My point is that if Covid-19 wasn't here, everyone on this thread would be singing their praises because they'd be enjoying a brilliant holiday to Disney. It's just really sad and I feel sorry for all parties involved.

All valid points but I don't think anyone here will agree with you. Davids is a mom and pop kind of operation, small, simple office space not in a high rent building. I think I read they have about 30 employess.
I think I would give him the benefit of the doubt. He is trying to do something to help all parties. He could have just walked away, declared bankruptcy and left us all hanging. I don't know if his solution is the best, its probably the best he could come up with and stay in business. There probably needs to be some compromise on all sides, but I don't know what that looks like.