Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

[banzai75]

I'm not talking about renter paid with PayPal, was related to of owners worked with renter if David would go after the owner and get back from PayPal... So like what if they closed account lol...

Another note, did every renter impacted get the voucher email? I didn't but we also did chargeback back in March as soon as the owner cancelled them. We would have checked in yesterday.

I'm in the David's owes me boat .

Can you keep us updated on your chargeback status? Curious as to how many of these will get approved.

 

[tubtruck]

I would try to file a complaint with the state of Florida. If David's doesn't do right by renters and owners alike, Florida could revoke their registration and not allow him to do business in the state any longer. That would be powerful leverage to force him to do the right thing here. Renters whose reservations could not be honored should be reimbursed in cash. Owners should have their points returned (whether they have value or not at this point in time is a different issue IMHO). David's may or may not be able to retain their commission but I would venture to guess no. There may be a non-cancellation clause with no refund, but that could never have been reasonably expected to apply in cases where the resort closed down through no fault of owners or renters. David's wrote the contract so any deficiencies in the contract are his problem to bear.

David does business in Canada, it has nothing to do with Florida, just like if I set up a timeshare rental firm in the UK selling Florida rentals, no government body anywhere in the USA could do anything about it even if they didn't like what I was doing as like in Canada they have zero jurisdiction here.

 

[we"reofftoneverland]

This is a really interesting discussion. We are owners and have never rented our points but we did contact David’s once to look into it. He sent us the contract and we never signed. We decided not to rent our points because the contract made us a bit nervous. We did not tell David’s that. Instead, we politely declined and said we may rent our points at a future date. DAVID’S DID NOT RESPOND AT ALL. At that point we knew we had dodged a bullet. No professional entity would just not respond to someone who might be a future customer. But back to the discussion... DH does contract law, so out of boredom this morning I pulled up the email with the contract David’s had sent us a few months ago and we looked at it. DH said, that, even though it is an awful contract (which is why we never signed it), the way he reads it in this case, the owner should get the 70% payment because he made the reservation for the renter and did not cancel it. That is clearly stated in the contract. The renter should get the rest of the 30% designated for the owner because technically check in was not possible. And, begrudgingly, David should keep his payment, although that is up for debate. He did facilitate the reservation and monies, but did he do his job fully? The contract is written in favor of the owner, and the renter is getting a “deal” by taking on more risk. Obviously, a decent contract would discuss what would happen in extreme situations, but David’s is obviously not very well run.
The subsequent agreement that someone posted that David’s is trying to get people to sign is also very poorly written and gives no security to renters. How is he paying for the future rentals? He is trying to get renters to give up what little rights they had in the first contract. He should be giving additional future “credit” if that is the case. As a renter, if it is possible to get back the 30% due the owner, that is the least risky path. What would that be? Is it about $5 a point? David’s should have that money in an escrow account, ready to pay the owner, so it should be easy to pay it to the renter. But I wonder if he even has that money or if he was running a quasi ponzi scheme.

 

[DGsAtBLT]

How much does Dave make off of these transactions besides the $133 booking fee?

I believe it’s $4.50 per point.

 

[piccolopat]

David does business in Canada, it has nothing to do with Florida, just like if I set up a timeshare rental firm in the UK selling Florida rentals, no government body anywhere in the USA could do anything about it even if they didn't like what I was doing as like in Canada they have zero jurisdiction here.

Yes but since David's had to registered with the state of Florida, there is obvious a connection to the state of Florida whether he likes it or not. If Florida revokes his registration, he may not be able to do business wit FL timeshares anymore.

 

[tubtruck]

They wont be able to stop him doing business, he is not in the USA.

 

[DGsAtBLT]

I would try to file a complaint with the state of Florida. If David's doesn't do right by renters and owners alike, Florida could revoke their registration and not allow him to do business in the state any longer. That would be powerful leverage to force him to do the right thing here. Renters whose reservations could not be honored should be reimbursed in cash. Owners should have their points returned (whether they have value or not at this point in time is a different issue IMHO). David's may or may not be able to retain their commission but I would venture to guess no. There may be a non-cancellation clause with no refund, but that could never have been reasonably expected to apply in cases where the resort closed down through no fault of owners or renters. David's wrote the contract so any deficiencies in the contract are his problem to bear.

Not sure if it’s just how I’m reading this so apologies if you knew this, but owners points being returned have nothing to do with David’s. That is on DVC and is being done, the usefulness of those points are a different story but that’s probably veering a bit off topic.

Owners are out the 30% remaining of their portion of the rental that David’s holds until check in.

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

Owners are out the 30% remaining of their portion of the rental that David’s holds until check in.

That he's supposed to be holding only until the date of check-in (whether or not the renter checks in).

 

[momincolorado]

This is a really interesting discussion. We are owners and have never rented our points but we did contact David’s once to look into it. He sent us the contract and we never signed. We decided not to rent our points because the contract made us a bit nervous. We did not tell David’s that. Instead, we politely declined and said we may rent our points at a future date. DAVID’S DID NOT RESPOND AT ALL. At that point we knew we had dodged a bullet. No professional entity would just not respond to someone who might be a future customer. But back to the discussion... DH does contract law, so out of boredom this morning I pulled up the email with the contract David’s had sent us a few months ago and we looked at it. DH said, that, even though it is an awful contract (which is why we never signed it), the way he reads it in this case, the owner should get the 70% payment because he made the reservation for the renter and did not cancel it. That is clearly stated in the contract. The renter should get the rest of the 30% designated for the owner because technically check in was not possible. And, begrudgingly, David should keep his payment, although that is up for debate. He did facilitate the reservation and monies, but did he do his job fully? The contract is written in favor of the owner, and the renter is getting a “deal” by taking on more risk. Obviously, a decent contract would discuss what would happen in extreme situations, but David’s is obviously not very well run.
The subsequent agreement that someone posted that David’s is trying to get people to sign is also very poorly written and gives no security to renters. How is he paying for the future rentals? He is trying to get renters to give up what little rights they had in the first contract. He should be giving additional future “credit” if that is the case. As a renter, if it is possible to get back the 30% due the owner, that is the least risky path. What would that be? Is it about $5 a point? David’s should have that money in an escrow account, ready to pay the owner, so it should be easy to pay it to the renter. But I wonder if he even has that money or if he was running a quasi ponzi scheme.

Agreed and I can tell you that in my case (renter), David’s agreed to refund the 30% to me. Apparently, the owner’s points used are expiring at the end of May and according to David’s, owner is refusing to refund the 70%. David’s refund to me was for 30% of the total amount paid so it included a portion of his commission but not all of it. The question is what to do about the remaining 70% that they are, per an e-mail from one of his daughters (who appears to be lacking some basic customer service skills), refusing to refund. It appears that my options are either this credit (with ridiculous terms and with the understanding that David’s is likely to make even more money from this) or a chargeback.

 

[starry_solo]

Where in Pay Pals conditions does it state they will void a transaction and return funds to the originator for a time share related transaction?

There isn't going to be a specific location in the user agreement.

Recipients of funds (aka "sellers") are bound by the seller protection policy here:
https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/security/seller-protectionand
elsewhere

What isn’t covered by Seller Protection?
Most PayPal transactions are covered as long as they follow these requirements. However, there are instances where Seller Protection doesn’t apply:

• Claims, chargebacks, or reversals filed because the item is significantly different from how it was described (e.g. you described an item as “new,” but sent a used one).
• Intangible purchases like services, digital goods, etc.
• Items picked up locally or in person.
• Transactions made through PayPal Direct, Virtual Terminal, PayPal Business, or PayPal Here.
• Instances where you receive multiple payments for an item.
• Claims filed directly through an eBay account.
• Prohibited items such as drug paraphernalia, ammunition/firearms, or counterfeit goods.
• First Class Mail International, since the receipt only shows the address the order was delivered to – not the customer's address.
• Donations

These eligibility requirements for coverage can also be found in the Seller Protection section of our User Agreement.

Portion of user agreement

Refunds, Reversals and Chargebacks
General information
If you receive a payment for selling goods or services that is later refunded or invalidated for any reason, you are responsible for the full amount of the payment sent to you plus any fees (including any applicable chargeback fee described below). Whenever a transaction is refunded or otherwise reversed, PayPal will refund or reverse the transaction from your PayPal account. If a currency conversion is necessary (for example if the balance in your Cash Account or your business PayPal account for a particular currency is insufficient to cover the amount of a refund or reversal, or if the buyer paid in a different currency), PayPal will perform a currency conversion in order to refund or reverse the transaction. PayPal’s transaction exchange rate (including our currency conversion spread) at the time the refund or reversal is processed will be used.
If you refund a payment for goods or services, there are no fees to make the refund, but the fees you originally paid as the seller are not returned to you. The amount of the refunded payment will be deducted from your PayPal account.

Payments that are invalidated and reversed
Payments to you may be invalidated and reversed by PayPal if:

• You lose a PayPal Purchase Protection claim submitted to us by a buyer, including as a result of your failure to respond in a timely manner.
• You lose a Venmo Protected Purchase Program claim.
• Your buyer pursues a chargeback related to a card-funded transaction and the transaction is not eligible for PayPal Seller Protection. The card issuer, not PayPal, determines whether a buyer is successful when they pursue a chargeback related to a card-funded transaction.
• You do not fulfill the transaction as promised or you cannot provide proof of shipment or proof of delivery when required.
• eBay decides against you under its money back guarantee program (and you haven’t opted out).
• Our investigation of a bank reversal made by a buyer or the buyer’s bank finds that the transaction was fraudulent.
• PayPal sent the payment to you in error.
• The payment was unauthorized
• You received the payment for activities that violated this user agreement or any other agreement between you and PayPal.

So, likely, David's sent payment as "Goods and Services." The owner cannot show that a tangible item was sold (a reservation is not a "tangible" item) so the owner cannot show shipment to the confirmed shipping address.

So, then we go to services. David's sent payment for services (a reservation) that is not available anymore (due to the closure of the resort).

But then, wait? Does it qualify under PayPal's buyer/purchase protection policy?! Well, no. But what happens? A smart buyer would have sent payment with their credit card, not via their bank account. I know that when one of my friend's used David's, she did not (and still does not) have a PayPal account. So, even though she "paid" through PayPal, she really used her credit card to fund the payment.

https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full#s2-purchase-protection
Ineligible items and transactions under PayPal’s Purchase Protection program
Payments for the following are not eligible for reimbursement under PayPal Purchase Protection:

• Real estate, including residential property.

There are times when PayPal will rule in favor of the buyer but not charge the seller. I doubt this is going to be one of those times. As I mentioned in my prior post, there is a thread here or in *********** where the owner of points used PayPal numerous times and got his PayPal account frozen for engaging in these unauthorized activities. He didn't get PayPal to release the hold on his account until he reimbursed people their funds, to the tune of $13,000.

 

[McCrae]

Agreed and I can tell you that in my case (renter), David’s agreed to refund the 30% to me. Apparently, the owner’s points used are expiring at the end of May and according to David’s, owner is refusing to refund the 70%. David’s refund to me was for 30% of the total amount paid so it included a portion of his commission but not all of it. The question is what to do about the remaining 70% that they are, per an e-mail from one of his daughters (who appears to be lacking some basic customer service skills), refusing to refund. It appears that my options are either this credit (with ridiculous terms and with the understanding that David’s is likely to make even more money from this) or a chargeback.

Thats interesting as an owner David’s didnt give me the option to refund the renter. He was only willing to give the renter a voucher and wanted to keep for himself any refund I would make.

 

[disneypharm]

DH does contract law, so out of boredom this morning I pulled up the email with the contract David’s had sent us a few months ago and we looked at it. DH said, that, even though it is an awful contract (which is why we never signed it), the way he reads it in this case, the owner should get the 70% payment because he made the reservation for the renter and did not cancel it. That is clearly stated in the contract. The renter should get the rest of the 30% designated for the owner because technically check in was not possible. And, begrudgingly, David should keep his payment, although that is up for debate. He did facilitate the reservation and monies, but did he do his job fully? The contract is written in favor of the owner, and the renter is getting a “deal” by taking on more risk. Obviously, a decent contract would discuss what would happen in extreme situations, but David’s is obviously not very well run.
The subsequent agreement that someone posted that David’s is trying to get people to sign is also very poorly written and gives no security to renters. How is he paying for the future rentals? He is trying to get renters to give up what little rights they had in the first contract. He should be giving additional future “credit” if that is the case. As a renter, if it is possible to get back the 30% due the owner, that is the least risky path. What would that be? Is it about $5 a point? David’s should have that money in an escrow account, ready to pay the owner, so it should be easy to pay it to the renter. But I wonder if he even has that money or if he was running a quasi ponzi scheme.

I assume your DH is looking at the owner's contract. The renter's contract clearly states that the renter will be due a refund if accommodation is not secured, not 30% of the amount!!
"Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Owner, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Owner and after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations for the same dates cannot be secured by the Owner, the Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid which is $XXXX US Dollars. "

 

[DGsAtBLT]

Thats interesting as an owner David’s didnt give me the option to refund the renter. He was only willing to give the renter a voucher and wanted to keep for himself any refund I would make.

I think this showcases what a major problem here has been.

They have not had a unified response. People have been told no refunds period (and then this changed to credits), people have been told refunds if points are re-rented, people like the previous poster have been told a portion can be refunded. Owners have been told many different things as well, like about where the money goes if refunded. A small number of owners have apparently been able to receive their full payment while others haven’t. Some have been told thanks for working it out with your renter, others have been told do not contact. They seem to be making it up as they go.

They have been a mess which instills absolutely no confidence in anyone. I’m sure this is not helping at all with the actions both owners and renters are choosing to take and is certainly not helping anyone make decisions that could benefit David’s, which is obviously what they want.

 

[McCrae]

There isn't going to be a specific location in the user agreement.

Recipients of funds (aka "sellers") are bound by the seller protection policy here:
https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/security/seller-protectionand
elsewhere

What isn’t covered by Seller Protection?
Most PayPal transactions are covered as long as they follow these requirements. However, there are instances where Seller Protection doesn’t apply:

• Claims, chargebacks, or reversals filed because the item is significantly different from how it was described (e.g. you described an item as “new,” but sent a used one).
• Intangible purchases like services, digital goods, etc.
• Items picked up locally or in person.
• Transactions made through PayPal Direct, Virtual Terminal, PayPal Business, or PayPal Here.
• Instances where you receive multiple payments for an item.
• Claims filed directly through an eBay account.
• Prohibited items such as drug paraphernalia, ammunition/firearms, or counterfeit goods.
• First Class Mail International, since the receipt only shows the address the order was delivered to – not the customer's address.
• Donations

These eligibility requirements for coverage can also be found in the Seller Protection section of our User Agreement.

Portion of user agreement

Refunds, Reversals and Chargebacks
General information
If you receive a payment for selling goods or services that is later refunded or invalidated for any reason, you are responsible for the full amount of the payment sent to you plus any fees (including any applicable chargeback fee described below). Whenever a transaction is refunded or otherwise reversed, PayPal will refund or reverse the transaction from your PayPal account. If a currency conversion is necessary (for example if the balance in your Cash Account or your business PayPal account for a particular currency is insufficient to cover the amount of a refund or reversal, or if the buyer paid in a different currency), PayPal will perform a currency conversion in order to refund or reverse the transaction. PayPal’s transaction exchange rate (including our currency conversion spread) at the time the refund or reversal is processed will be used.
If you refund a payment for goods or services, there are no fees to make the refund, but the fees you originally paid as the seller are not returned to you. The amount of the refunded payment will be deducted from your PayPal account.

Payments that are invalidated and reversed
Payments to you may be invalidated and reversed by PayPal if:

• You lose a PayPal Purchase Protection claim submitted to us by a buyer, including as a result of your failure to respond in a timely manner.
• You lose a Venmo Protected Purchase Program claim.
• Your buyer pursues a chargeback related to a card-funded transaction and the transaction is not eligible for PayPal Seller Protection. The card issuer, not PayPal, determines whether a buyer is successful when they pursue a chargeback related to a card-funded transaction.
• You do not fulfill the transaction as promised or you cannot provide proof of shipment or proof of delivery when required.
• eBay decides against you under its money back guarantee program (and you haven’t opted out).
• Our investigation of a bank reversal made by a buyer or the buyer’s bank finds that the transaction was fraudulent.
• PayPal sent the payment to you in error.
• The payment was unauthorized
• You received the payment for activities that violated this user agreement or any other agreement between you and PayPal.

So, likely, David's sent payment as "Goods and Services." The owner cannot show that a tangible item was sold (a reservation is not a "tangible" item) so the owner cannot show shipment to the confirmed shipping address.

So, then we go to services. David's sent payment for services (a reservation) that is not available anymore (due to the closure of the resort).

But then, wait? Does it qualify under PayPal's buyer/purchase protection policy?! Well, no. But what happens? A smart buyer would have sent payment with their credit card, not via their bank account. I know that when one of my friend's used David's, she did not (and still does not) have a PayPal account. So, even though she "paid" through PayPal, she really used her credit card to fund the payment.

https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full#s2-purchase-protection
Ineligible items and transactions under PayPal’s Purchase Protection program
Payments for the following are not eligible for reimbursement under PayPal Purchase Protection:

• Real estate, including residential property.

There are times when PayPal will rule in favor of the buyer but not charge the seller. I doubt this is going to be one of those times. As I mentioned in my prior post, there is a thread here or in *********** where the owner of points used PayPal numerous times and got his PayPal account frozen for engaging in these unauthorized activities. He didn't get PayPal to release the hold on his account until he reimbursed people their funds, to the tune of $13,000.

The renter did not pay the owner for the rental of points using PayPal , they paid David’s. Any charge back through a credit card and pay pal would be between David’s and the renter.

It is likely David’s made a cash transfer to owner using pay pal. Therefore a credit card charge back through pay pal won’t happen. Still don’t see how David’s would get a payback through Pay pal from an owner.

 

[LawrenceFamily]

The thing I cant get my head around is why the 30% is being held by David?

Upon making a booking, the renter pays $20 per point for a booking over 7 months in advance. $4.5 per point stays with David and $15.50 is allocated to the owner.

However, only 70% of that $15.50 per point is given to the owner at the point of reservation and 30% is held until the day of check in to ensure that the owner keeps their side of the deal and ensures the booking is upheld.

As the booking is non-refundable, the 30% is paid to the owner regardless of whether or not the renter has checked in.

At this point, David has already received his total fee ($4.5 * points needed for booking) so he has no claim to the 30%.

Even in the contract that we have recently signed with them as an owner, it makes no reference to not being paid the 30% if the resort is not open. It clearly states that an owner will receive the remaining 30% "at the time of check-in".

This indicates that at 3pm on the day of checkin, the balance should be paid to the owner, regardless.

Lets use and example for a booking using 200 points:

David's fee is $900 ($4.50 * 200)
30% of the $15.5 on a 200 point reservation is $930

David will have kept that $930 in account for between 7-11 months, generating interest and helping with cashflow. But like others have said, this money should really be in ESCROW. We do a similar thing in the UK when we rent properties and we store a renters deposit in a TDP Scheme. I was surprised when we realised this wasn't the case with our agreement with David's

If David is refusing the owners their 30%, I would imagine he'll be having a number of lawsuits against him, because legally he has no right whatsoever to withhold it if the day of checkin has passed on the reservation.

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

I assume your DH is looking at the owner's contract. The renter's contract clearly states that the renter will be due a refund if accommodation is not secured, not 30% of the amount!!
"Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Owner, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Owner and after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations for the same dates cannot be secured by the Owner, the Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid which is $XXXX US Dollars. "

This, again, highlights the biggest problem (IMHO) that David has on his hands... he made guarantees to both the owner and the renter that they would get 100% but never considered that resorts being closed would put him on the hook to fulfill those promises to both parties.

 

[McCrae]

I think this showcases what a major problem here has been.

They have not had a unified response. People have been told no refunds period (and then this changed to credits), people have been told refunds if points are re-rented, people like the previous poster have been told a portion can be refunded. Owners have been told many different things as well, like about where the money goes if refunded. A small number of owners have apparently been able to receive their full payment while others haven’t. Some have been told thanks for working it out with your renter, others have been told do not contact. They seem to be making it up as they go.

They have been a mess which instills absolutely no confidence in anyone. I’m sure this is not helping at all with the actions both owners and renters are choosing to take and is certainly not helping anyone make decisions that could benefit David’s, which is obviously what they want.

I am in wait and see mode. I want to help, but if I can’t help my original renter am not sure it makes sense for me to re rent my points. I could still have an obligation to the original renter.

 

[LawrenceFamily]

I assume your DH is looking at the owner's contract. The renter's contract clearly states that the renter will be due a refund if accommodation is not secured, not 30% of the amount!!
"Should accommodations not be available on date of arrival due to an action or omission by the Owner, including but not limited to negligence on the part of the Owner and after communication with the Intermediary, suitable comparable accommodations for the same dates cannot be secured by the Owner, the Renter will be due a refund limited to the amount paid which is $XXXX US Dollars. "

Covid-19 isnt an action or omission by the owner so this clause wouldn't be valid in this instance.

Nowhere in the renters agreement does it say that if accomodation is not secured, a full refund will be given.

The refund is only given in the event that the owner goes against their agreement (i.e cancels the room, doesn't pay their dues or misses mortgage payments causing the room to be cancelled by Disney), in which case, David would refund the renter on full as the 70% plus costs and fees would be re-payable by the owner, as per the agreement the owner has with David.

 

[tubtruck]

A complication with paypal is you have used the US paypal rules. In all likelyhood they will be different in Canada, just like they are here in the UK. It all depends on each countries different banking laws.

Here are uk rules on refunds, which countries rules they use, who knows.

These are the purchases PayPal Buyer Protection doesn't cover.

• Real estate.
• Motorised vehicles and industrial machinery.
• Custom-made goods that are significantly not as described.
• Stored value items such as gift cards and pre-paid cards.
• Items that violate our policies.
• Anything bought in person (not over the internet).
• Send Money transactions to friends or family.
• Disputes filed more than 180 days after the purchase for item not received and significantly not as described claims.
• Items that have sustained normal wear and tear and items that were described accurately by the seller.

PayPal cannot assist you with filing or enforcing a warranty claim with your seller or the original manufacturer. Similarly, PayPal’s Buyer protection cannot resolve issues around the lack of warranty or product registration materials. This protection is limited to the item itself.

 

[DGsAtBLT]

This, again, highlights the biggest problem (IMHO) that David has on his hands... he made guarantees to both the owner and the renter that they would get 100% but never considered that resorts being closed would put him on the hook to fulfill those promises to both parties.

I know it’s easy to say now knowing what we do, but this really surprises me. A pandemic with resorts closing for months and months was probably not something most of us would have predicted happening, even hurricanes have not historically closed the resorts, but what would have happened if a fire had taken out the majority of rooms in a DVC resort? Not out of the question in resorts with few or even one building.

Obviously he would have been dealing with a smaller number of reservations impacted so maybe he thought it could be dealt with on a case by case basis, but if private renters had the sense to have clauses in their contracts to cover these types of scenarios, what the heck David’s?