Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

[Frustrated renter]

Sounds like a lot of you feel Davids is going out of business and his vouchers will be worthless. If thats the case would you call your credit card for a charge back immediately.
My trip isnt until May 2nd and it has not been cancelled as of yet.

Thanks!!!

I wouldn’t try a charge back before the reservation is canceled. Until then you can’t really claim the service hasn’t been provided as paid for.

 

[Fred M]

I haven’t been through all 50 pages, so apologies in advance if someone has covered this.

So if David’s guilts the owner into refunding the 70% payment, and the owner can’t use the points, the owner is taking on risk of loss because they are out the value of points and money. The renter takes on a risk for David’s being able to deliver on the travel credit. David’s is taking on no risk because they have 100% of the money. And if the owner can use the points, then the owner is made whole and the renter will assume 100% risk of loss.

If the owner makes a new reservation for the renter, or agrees to make a subsequent reservation for a new renter, and keeps the 70% payment, the owner is risking losing those points again and possibly the remaining payment if the new date can’t be accommodated by Disney. Renter has the same risk as before, and David’s has no risk again because they still have 30% of the owner’s payment plus their commission.

The only risk David’s has if the owner keeps the money and if the renter is able to pull back the funding, as with a credit card dispute.

Yeah, I’d tell them to pound sand.

 

[DebbieB]

I was going to say the same. I would also add that if any broker can't shield me from potential risks, I am done working with any broker. As I mentioned before, if I am on hook should anything out of my control were to happen to a reservation I make months ago, what's the point of renting?

LAX

it will be interesting to see if contract wording is changed. I don’t see how it can be changed to be acceptable to both owners and renters to reflect this situation. Owners will not want to rent if they may have to refund and renters will not if they cannot get their money back if the resort is closed.

 

[CraigInPA]

This appeared in Insurance Journal today (google it to see the full article, I've only included the highlights below). So, it seems likely that even if David's has business interruption insurance, it is likely his carrier is rejecting COVID-19 claims. It also states that Force Majeure is for unforeseen external events, not something which could have been predicted (using SARS as an example of a previous pandemic). The original article also goes into how the insurance companies did not price their policies to include such an event, and how paying could cost trillions of dollars worldwide (which falls into the argument that they would be bankrupted by their own incompetence, so the contract they wrote should be set aside [good luck on that one]). This would be interesting to follow, but the litigation is likely to take years and some of the companies that might have been saved if the insurance was paid out will be long gone by the time it's settled.


Canadian Insurers Hit with Lawsuit on Refusal to Pay COVID-19 Biz Income Claims
A class action lawsuit has been filed against Canada’s top indemnity insurers for breach of contract in their refusal to pay business interruption claims from the COVID-19 crisis.

“Indemnity insurers are wrongfully refusing to honor their contracts,” said E.F. Anthony Merchant, a solicitor who works for Merchant Law, a Victoria, British Columbia-based law firm. “Business owners intended their insurance to cover against this. Insurance companies should pay.”

Insurance companies are claiming “force majeure” and refusing to pay, said Merchant, noting, however, that the insurance recovery for BI claims will be trillions worldwide. The COVID-19 crisis was a foreseeable event and it’s not force majeure, said Merchant in a statement, citing the examples of SARS, MERS and Avian flu, which all caused business interruptions. “The business interruption may be worse than the insurance industry expected, but it is not an excuse justifying a refusal to pay. Business is interrupted! Pay!”

Named defendants in the suit are: Aviva Canada, Co-Operators General Insurance Co., Desjardins Financial Security Life Assurance Co., Economical Insurance, Intact Financial Corp., Lloyd’s Canada, Lloyd’s Underwriters, Northbridge General Insurance Corp., Royal & Sun Alliance, TD General Insurance Co., Wawanesa Mutual Insurance Co., Wynward Holdings and Wynward Insurance Group.

In an interview, Merchant said, the top 10-plus insurers were selected. “When you go to war, you want to pick a manageable number of enemies.”

Merchant explained that many business interruption policies use language that excludes airborne viruses. However, the COVID-19 virus can be transferred via handrails and keyboards, for example, so the virus should be part of BI property damage coverage.

The class action was filed in the Canadian provinces of Quebec and Saskatchewan, with filing numbers of “500-06001056-205” in Quebec and “QBG797 of 2020” in Saskatchewan.

 

[yankeesfan123]

This appeared in Insurance Journal today (google it to see the full article, I've only included the highlights below). So, it seems likely that even if David's has business interruption insurance, it is likely his carrier is rejecting COVID-19 claims. It also states that Force Majeure is for unforeseen external events, not something which could have been predicted (using SARS as an example of a previous pandemic). The original article also goes into how the insurance companies did not price their policies to include such an event, and how paying could cost trillions of dollars worldwide (which falls into the argument that they would be bankrupted by their own incompetence, so the contract they wrote should be set aside [good luck on that one]). This would be interesting to follow, but the litigation is likely to take years and some of the companies that might have been saved if the insurance was paid out will be long gone by the time it's settled.


Canadian Insurers Hit with Lawsuit on Refusal to Pay COVID-19 Biz Income Claims
A class action lawsuit has been filed against Canada’s top indemnity insurers for breach of contract in their refusal to pay business interruption claims from the COVID-19 crisis.

“Indemnity insurers are wrongfully refusing to honor their contracts,” said E.F. Anthony Merchant, a solicitor who works for Merchant Law, a Victoria, British Columbia-based law firm. “Business owners intended their insurance to cover against this. Insurance companies should pay.”

Insurance companies are claiming “force majeure” and refusing to pay, said Merchant, noting, however, that the insurance recovery for BI claims will be trillions worldwide. The COVID-19 crisis was a foreseeable event and it’s not force majeure, said Merchant in a statement, citing the examples of SARS, MERS and Avian flu, which all caused business interruptions. “The business interruption may be worse than the insurance industry expected, but it is not an excuse justifying a refusal to pay. Business is interrupted! Pay!”

Named defendants in the suit are: Aviva Canada, Co-Operators General Insurance Co., Desjardins Financial Security Life Assurance Co., Economical Insurance, Intact Financial Corp., Lloyd’s Canada, Lloyd’s Underwriters, Northbridge General Insurance Corp., Royal & Sun Alliance, TD General Insurance Co., Wawanesa Mutual Insurance Co., Wynward Holdings and Wynward Insurance Group.

In an interview, Merchant said, the top 10-plus insurers were selected. “When you go to war, you want to pick a manageable number of enemies.”

Merchant explained that many business interruption policies use language that excludes airborne viruses. However, the COVID-19 virus can be transferred via handrails and keyboards, for example, so the virus should be part of BI property damage coverage.

The class action was filed in the Canadian provinces of Quebec and Saskatchewan, with filing numbers of “500-06001056-205” in Quebec and “QBG797 of 2020” in Saskatchewan.

There are certain legislatures in the US that are putting forth bills to require insurance companies to cover this under business interruption insurance even though the insurance policy doesn’t cover it.

basically, the legislature wants to force insurance companies to cover something that the insurance policy doesn’t cover (even if the business has business interruption coverage). MA, NJ, and Ohio to my knowledge have introduced bills.

Edit: sorry this is so off topic!

 

[dsnymnkyuncle]

This is thought provoking. Thank you for taking the time. Let me ask you a question. Does this surprise you? It seems to me denying claims is standard insurance company practice.

This appeared in Insurance Journal today (google it to see the full article, I've only included the highlights below). So, it seems likely that even if David's has business interruption insurance, it is likely his carrier is rejecting COVID-19 claims. It also states that Force Majeure is for unforeseen external events, not something which could have been predicted (using SARS as an example of a previous pandemic). The original article also goes into how the insurance companies did not price their policies to include such an event, and how paying could cost trillions of dollars worldwide (which falls into the argument that they would be bankrupted by their own incompetence, so the contract they wrote should be set aside [good luck on that one]). This would be interesting to follow, but the litigation is likely to take years and some of the companies that might have been saved if the insurance was paid out will be long gone by the time it's settled.


Canadian Insurers Hit with Lawsuit on Refusal to Pay COVID-19 Biz Income Claims
A class action lawsuit has been filed against Canada’s top indemnity insurers for breach of contract in their refusal to pay business interruption claims from the COVID-19 crisis.

“Indemnity insurers are wrongfully refusing to honor their contracts,” said E.F. Anthony Merchant, a solicitor who works for Merchant Law, a Victoria, British Columbia-based law firm. “Business owners intended their insurance to cover against this. Insurance companies should pay.”

Insurance companies are claiming “force majeure” and refusing to pay, said Merchant, noting, however, that the insurance recovery for BI claims will be trillions worldwide. The COVID-19 crisis was a foreseeable event and it’s not force majeure, said Merchant in a statement, citing the examples of SARS, MERS and Avian flu, which all caused business interruptions. “The business interruption may be worse than the insurance industry expected, but it is not an excuse justifying a refusal to pay. Business is interrupted! Pay!”

Named defendants in the suit are: Aviva Canada, Co-Operators General Insurance Co., Desjardins Financial Security Life Assurance Co., Economical Insurance, Intact Financial Corp., Lloyd’s Canada, Lloyd’s Underwriters, Northbridge General Insurance Corp., Royal & Sun Alliance, TD General Insurance Co., Wawanesa Mutual Insurance Co., Wynward Holdings and Wynward Insurance Group.

In an interview, Merchant said, the top 10-plus insurers were selected. “When you go to war, you want to pick a manageable number of enemies.”

Merchant explained that many business interruption policies use language that excludes airborne viruses. However, the COVID-19 virus can be transferred via handrails and keyboards, for example, so the virus should be part of BI property damage coverage.

The class action was filed in the Canadian provinces of Quebec and Saskatchewan, with filing numbers of “500-06001056-205” in Quebec and “QBG797 of 2020” in Saskatchewan.

 

[CraigInPA]

This is thought provoking. Thank you for taking the time. Let me ask you a question. Does this surprise you? It seems to me denying claims is standard insurance company practice.

In early February, the ABA weekly newsletter predicted there would be a huge spike in COVID-19 cases, including liability for failing to prevent workplace infection, liability for failing to prevent it in nursing homes, prisons, homeless shelters (etc...), and claims against insurance companies which balk at paying out claims for business interruption insurance. So, no, it doesn't surprise me at all that insurance companies have drawn a line in the sand and said they aren't paying, nor does it surprise me that there is an attorney opening a mass tort case against the largest insurers in Canada.

Back to the original reason I posted it, however... David's claim is that neither party is at fault, so the contract is void, is invalidated at this point, now that we know that Canadian law appears to treat force majeure as unforeseeable events by third parties, not just actions by third parties (which is the prevailing opinion in US law). As such, I think we're back to the point that the contract is valid, and he as the broker is ultimately responsible to both parties for his own incompetence in drafting the contract.

 

[Angeliki19]

I mailed off a letter to my Owner yesterday so I definitely don't think its weird! I just explained how I got the address at the very beginning.

Good luck!! Keep us posted!

 

[zskid00]

There are certain legislatures in the US that are putting forth bills to require insurance companies to cover this under business interruption insurance even though the insurance policy doesn’t cover it.

basically, the legislature wants to force insurance companies to cover something that the insurance policy doesn’t cover (even if the business has business interruption coverage). MA, NJ, and Ohio to my knowledge have introduced bills.

Exactly this! Some of you don't understand that insurance policies have very specific terms for what they cover and do not cover. That is how your risk gets priced accurately and reserved for potential losses by the insurance companies. Just because you think this pandemic should be covered by business interruption coverage does not make it so. Read your insurance policies! Don't put insurance companies on the hook after the fact because you didn't know what you were signing up for.

 

[dsnymnkyuncle]

I think reading what you sign is always good advice for anyone. Of course anyone knowing that they are not an expert on insurance law nor insurance contracts, that they did not choose the language of the policy; that the insurance company would not make single policy change for them means advising them to contact a really good insurance attorney if this becomes an issue if far better advice.

Whether or not the insurance company is on a hook or not is a conclusion that a disinterest 3rd party should make.....someone like a Judge. Not someone who stands to keep millions and millions of dollars by just saying "NO" and don't bother me again.

 

[foodiddiedoo]

Has anyone actually seen anything on the credit we're due to be issued? My check in date for Aulani is 4/18 and while I can log into the Aulani website and see I have a reservation with a confirmation number, they are very clearly closed. I already received refunds for luau, Pearl Harbor, my upgrades for my flight (still working on figuring out what's up on the base ticket), and yet NOTHING came from David's. Originally I thought I would be a jerk if I issued a chargeback on my credit card, but is now the time to go ahead and do that? A week at Aulani is some serious money even on David's and I would like to recoupe my almost 4700 dollars that I paid in advance last September. I am starting to feel like over the next few years booking ahead isn't going to be something that people really will be able to do (I foresee scheduled lock downs on certain areas as cases flare up and need to be contained) so being a planner will be out the window. A business that thrives on people making requests 11-6 months out from check in dates won't be able to handle people saying "I just don't want to risk not having where I want to go be open". Any suggestions?

 

[toniosmom]

Exactly this! Some of you don't understand that insurance policies have very specific terms for what they cover and do not cover. That is how your risk gets priced accurately and reserved for potential losses by the insurance companies. Just because you think this pandemic should be covered by business interruption coverage does not make it so. Read your insurance policies! Don't put insurance companies on the hook after the fact because you didn't know what you were signing up for.

I agree. I just booked our airline flight for November and bought the insurance. I got an email from the carrier indicating that the policy does NOT cover COVID19 or pandemics unless you get sick from it before (and can't travel) or during the trip. Insurance companies are fast and furiously updating their policies now.

 

[toniosmom]

Has anyone actually seen anything on the credit we're due to be issued? My check in date for Aulani is 4/18 and while I can log into the Aulani website and see I have a reservation with a confirmation number, they are very clearly closed. I already received refunds for luau, Pearl Harbor, my upgrades for my flight (still working on figuring out what's up on the base ticket), and yet NOTHING came from David's. Originally I thought I would be a jerk if I issued a chargeback on my credit card, but is now the time to go ahead and do that? A week at Aulani is some serious money even on David's and I would like to recoupe my almost 4700 dollars that I paid in advance last September. I am starting to feel like over the next few years booking ahead isn't going to be something that people really will be able to do (I foresee scheduled lock downs on certain areas as cases flare up and need to be contained) so being a planner will be out the window. A business that thrives on people making requests 11-6 months out from check in dates won't be able to handle people saying "I just don't want to risk not having where I want to go be open". Any suggestions?

Disney is cancelling reservations on a weekly basis. My guess is that your reservation will be cancelled by them by some time next week. Not sure if you should initiate the chargeback until then.

 

[Matty B13]

Insurance companies are fast and furiously updating their policies now.

Yep, soon they won't cover anything for any reason........

 

[toniosmom]

I heard from David's.....finally! I took the advice of someone here and sent them an email from a non-Comcast account. They responded the next day with the updated rental agreement! They did say they are having a problem with Comcast email accounts, so if you fall into that category like me, try sending them an email from a non-Comcast account.

 

[foodiddiedoo]

I heard from David's.....finally! I took the advice of someone here and sent them an email from a non-Comcast account. They responded the next day with the updated rental agreement! They did say they are having a problem with Comcast email accounts, so if you fall into that category like me, try sending them an email from a non-Comcast account.

And what did they say? Just another plate email about giving a credit?

 

[Dracula]

Has anyone actually seen anything on the credit we're due to be issued? My check in date for Aulani is 4/18 and while I can log into the Aulani website and see I have a reservation with a confirmation number, they are very clearly closed. I already received refunds for luau, Pearl Harbor, my upgrades for my flight (still working on figuring out what's up on the base ticket), and yet NOTHING came from David's. Originally I thought I would be a jerk if I issued a chargeback on my credit card, but is now the time to go ahead and do that? A week at Aulani is some serious money even on David's and I would like to recoupe my almost 4700 dollars that I paid in advance last September. I am starting to feel like over the next few years booking ahead isn't going to be something that people really will be able to do (I foresee scheduled lock downs on certain areas as cases flare up and need to be contained) so being a planner will be out the window. A business that thrives on people making requests 11-6 months out from check in dates won't be able to handle people saying "I just don't want to risk not having where I want to go be open". Any suggestions?

I don't think you have any grounds to charge back the payment to David's until your reservation is canceled, and even then you should first make a bona fide effort to obtain a refund from David's. US airlines have been recently requested by DOT to give cash refunds for canceled flights, but Canadian and European airlines are currently issuing credit vouchers, just like David's.

 

[LAX]

Yep, soon they won't cover anything for any reason........

Well, as long as you are willing to pay the premium, they will cover anything. The point I am trying to make is whether the cost of insurance would actually be worth the potential risks.

LAX

 

[DebbieB]

I work for a major insurance company. Business Interruption covers income loss after a covered property claim (like a fire). There’s no property claim with this for Business Interruption to apply. There has to be a direct physical loss to the premises described.

 

[Matty B13]

Well, as long as you are willing to pay the premium, they will cover anything. The point I am trying to make is whether the cost of insurance would actually be worth the potential risks.

Yeah, for the cost of the insurance for renting DVC points would probably make it the same as a cash reservation.