DAS changes coming WDW May 20/ DL June 18, 2024

[PrincessV]

What do other races around the nation do? I've never actually thought about something like that especially in the case of service animals or assistive devices. My assumption is that with Disney they have such a controlled environment within their parks that they could do things other races/marathons can't.




Interestingly I looked up what is probably the most notable one in my area which is the Garmin one and they state

• Can I race with a wheelchair or handcycle?
  • Due to the lack of sustainable participation numbers in these divisions, these options have been suspended."

They only allow service animals if they are for visually impaired runners though they also allow human guides via United in Stride (used for visually impaired). None of the paperwork I can find specifies those with visual impairment are able to get any special treatment be it race starting position or leeway on race time (they have a vehicle that follows the course and picks up being who are exceeding the time for their spot on the course).

If you're a walker you start at the back. But the Garmin race is also on public roads (some routes are on public park trails) with no full closure of them for the duration of the race. There are instead closed portions of the race with the rest only having partial closures until a set time so there is a safety component that isn't quite the same as Disney.

But I also know that RunDisney has gotten incredibly popular over the years, two of our Orlando DISers participate in them a good amount of time, so it makes me wonder if part of the adjustment and hard stance towards assistive devices or guides is related to an increase in participants to the point where they can't accommodate/ensure safety those groups the same as in the past. So maybe they aren't outright prohibiting it like the Garmin race for example but they are making is less likely to have a larger group of participants with those needs. Circling back around to the undercurrent vibe of too many users of DAS may be potentially not allowing certain groups within that to have accommodation in a way they did before (likening it to the increase in popularity of RunDisney participants creating issues to properly accommodate certain groups).

I didn’t pay close enough attention to say what other major races allow/provide - I know some AWDs have said, but I just didn’t retain that info. I can say though that the rD race field sizes now are actually smaller than they once were, and overall the number of registered AWDs is a very, very small percentage of the field (plenty of AWDs like me with invisible disabilities don’t register as such and just find a way to participate, so I’m sure there are plenty more actual AWDs, but Avery small number of those registered as such.) Which is what has caused much confusion for the AWDs affected by the change. They’re now much MORE in the way of the rest of the field than they used to be, which has created a LESS safe situation for everyone. It’s all rather odd.

RD definitely isn’t prohibiting AWDs or their assistive devices (there are some rules about what devices can be used, and chair athletes are a totally separate division with its own start group that begins ahead of the elites) - they just aren’t giving them a a separate starting group anymore. It’s hard to explain, but the earlier start did give them a little extra time to finish, but also allowed the field behind them to spread out more before encountering them.

Since start times are based on running pace and anticipated finish time, I wonder if the start time slots between the elite runners and the rest of the field just got too close to accommodate an 'in-between' group

I don’t think so - it’s a HUGE variance in paces in any rD race, from 4-5-minute milers up front to 16+-minute milers in the back, and literally everything in between at any given point. The huge majority of the field isn’t remotely close to the elites. Add in people stopping for photos, and you get a lot more variance in speed, if that makes sense. Having the AWDs start earlier than the masses seemed to more effectively give them some extra space, which made it easier for faster runners behind them to see the AWDs sooner and the space to go around safely. What I saw happen in the more recent races was that AWDs - particularly those with guides/dogs - struggled more with the crowdedness and many faster runners didn’t have enough space to safely assess the situation and take avoidable action. There were a lot of near-misses in the couple miles I witnessed, which I’d never seen before.

~~~

It’s an incredibly small fraction that AWDs make up in any rD race, so it’s felt really odd that they made that change and the rD community’s kind of given up trying to understand, because it just feels SO illogical… but coupled with the DAS changes it maybe makes more sense, even if the end result isn’t an increase in safety??? IDK - it still makes no sense to me but suddenly feels less of a random change out of nowhere.

 

[lanejudy]

It’s an incredibly small fraction that AWDs make up in any rD race, so it’s felt really odd that they made that change and the rD community’s kind of given up trying to understand, because it just feels SO illogical… but coupled with the DAS changes it maybe makes more sense, even if the end result isn’t an increase in safety??? IDK - it still makes no sense to me but suddenly feels less of a random change out of nowhere.

Admittedly I know next to nothing about runDisney events. But I do think that trying to connect changes to DAS with changes to runDisney procedures is putting apples and oranges together. DAS is specific to the parks, and even more specifically to attraction access within the parks; it has nothing to do with transportation, restaurants, shopping, resorts, Disney Springs and I honestly can't imagine it is connected to runDisney procedures. There are new buses at WDW with new configuration and loading procedures for ECVs/wheelchairs, but I wouldn't never attempt to say that is related to the upcoming DAS changes. They are completely separate. The only connection might be the word "disability."

Let's keep this thread on-topic about DAS.

 

[BingoJoe]

Neither you nor Disney has any way of knowing how many people are being "dishonourable."

It crazy that anyone thinks the current system is the best it can be and doesn't need reforming.

They quite literally perform zero checks at the moment, you ask you get.

Obviously that kind of system is going to fail over time, its a miracle it has lasted this long.

 

[PrincessV]

Admittedly I know next to nothing about runDisney events. But I do think that trying to connect changes to DAS with changes to runDisney procedures is putting apples and oranges together. DAS is specific to the parks, and even more specifically to attraction access within the parks; it has nothing to do with transportation, restaurants, shopping, resorts, Disney Springs and I honestly can't imagine it is connected to runDisney procedures. There are new buses at WDW with new configuration and loading procedures for ECVs/wheelchairs, but I wouldn't never attempt to say that is related to the upcoming DAS changes. They are completely separate. The only connection might be the word "disability."

Let's keep this thread on-topic about DAS.

No problem and that makes sense! In my mind the commonality was a recent change in what’s being offered as a form of accomodation, but agree completely that there’s not a direct connection. Please LMK if you’d like me to edit my previous post.

 

[Genie+]

I thought that because when we researched going there the main thing that I took away from their website was that it was sensory friendly.

I’d compare it to something like WDW becoming allergy friendly. They didn’t set out to be an allergy friendly destination, rather leaned into it. It was something they could provide that set them apart from many other places, so they built on that.

Sesame Place set out to be a destination geared toward families with younger children. The premise lent itself to other scenarios, like autism/downs/sensory, etc, so they leaned into that as well and built on that.

 

[sprem96]

It crazy that anyone thinks the current system is the best it can be and doesn't need reforming.

They quite literally perform zero checks at the moment, you ask you get.

Obviously that kind of system is going to fail over time, its a miracle it has lasted this long.

I've mentioned that in the past on this thread, most years I applied (I think I have had DAS 7 times over the past 8 years) I was asked about WHY I couldn't wait in lines maybe 2 times (once in person and once with online registration), majority of the time I just said I need it and they gave it with no fuss. If DAS has become a problem, that's where you need to start to resolve the issue, more scrutiny from CM's.

 

[keishashadow]

RunDisney got rid of that accommodation and AWDs now start with the masses in whatever corral matches their running pace. It’s not gone particularly well for many AWDs, and some have decided they just can’t do the runDisney races anymore. The safety concerns for those who run with canine or human guides especially have been problematic and shared with runDisney, but the organization remains committed so far to not offering that accommodation anymore.

? Our experience was totally different. ?

We are slow, took an hour but finished! used a realistic time upon registering. Figured would be in last corral

Just back from our 1st rundisney 5K. Our entire group of previous runners there on the vacation had a great time. majority did all the races & needed no accommodation

Our 5K group was contacted via phone call after registration completed as to stated need for a guide. long, detailed conversation as to needs & it was determined a guide was necessary, due to safety concerns

Then, received an email a couple of weeks out to confirm, along with instructions upon arrival to race

Were put in first corral with the elites and told to stand on far, right side @ end of corral. Note no ECV or WC utilized. There were several other parties.

Didn’t see canines in that corral. Did in first wave of B

Definitely was a YMMV situation. Nothing to back it up (other than faith in Disney I hope isn’t dashed) that the new version of the DAS will still be individualized as to accommodations

 

[Evita_W]

I DO know that when they changed from GAC to DAS in 2013, Disney did do focus groups get input from multiple disability related groups, including groups some of their many disabled CMs with different conditions/needs.

I don't see any reason that they would not have done the same with this change.

There is a MAJOR difference between using focus groups (yes that step is important too) and having those who have disabilities be the ones to create the policy in the first place.

There are examples of this in other aspects as well, for example thanks to new tools like 3D printers and easier to use software, amputees are now starting to design prosthetics, not all amputees are designing their own, but many are benefiting from those that are by getting less expensive prosthetics that are at the same time more functional for what they actually need them to do. This is becoming such a big issue now that some of the companies that have been making prosthetics are getting nervous about it because it is eating into their profits.

There is an organization that is working to make an open source electric wheelchair, where the schematics for it are all available online for free and everything is modular and where you can literally go and buy most (if not all of it) off the shelf and design any seating system you want for it. The point of the design though is the people designing it are full time users of electric wheelchairs, many of whom have been burned by the manufacturer, such as when a reset switch broke on a $65,000 wheelchair, being told that the part is no longer being made and they need to throw out the wheelchair and get a new one. Anyone who uses such a device knows how absurd of a concept that is over what should be a $20 (or less) part, but the wheelchair manufacturer designed the switch to be proprietary and no other switch would work. They also expect the chair to be much more affordable as well.

The point here is those who need the tools are the best people to design the tools, as they have the best knowledge of what is actually needed. The DAS (or other accommodations) are no different. Yes, focus groups are needed to verify it works for the masses, but the initial concepts should also come from those who need the assistance.

 

[OurBigTrip]

The point here is those who need the tools are the best people to design the tools, as they have the best knowledge of what is actually needed. The DAS (or other accommodations) are no different. Yes, focus groups are needed to verify it works for the masses, but the initial concepts should also come from those who need the assistance.

IMO, that wouldn’t work because again, the same disability can have very different needs.

 

[SueM in MN]

There is a MAJOR difference between using focus groups (yes that step is important too) and having those who have disabilities be the ones to create the policy in the first place.

There are examples of this in other aspects as well, for example thanks to new tools like 3D printers and easier to use software, amputees are now starting to design prosthetics, not all amputees are designing their own, but many are benefiting from those that are by getting less expensive prosthetics that are at the same time more functional for what they actually need them to do. This is becoming such a big issue now that some of the companies that have been making prosthetics are getting nervous about it because it is eating into their profits.

There is an organization that is working to make an open source electric wheelchair, where the schematics for it are all available online for free and everything is modular and where you can literally go and buy most (if not all of it) off the shelf and design any seating system you want for it. The point of the design though is the people designing it are full time users of electric wheelchairs, many of whom have been burned by the manufacturer, such as when a reset switch broke on a $65,000 wheelchair, being told that the part is no longer being made and they need to throw out the wheelchair and get a new one. Anyone who uses such a device knows how absurd of a concept that is over what should be a $20 (or less) part, but the wheelchair manufacturer designed the switch to be proprietary and no other switch would work. They also expect the chair to be much more affordable as well.

The point here is those who need the tools are the best people to design the tools, as they have the best knowledge of what is actually needed. The DAS (or other accommodations) are no different. Yes, focus groups are needed to verify it works for the masses, but the initial concepts should also come from those who need the assistance.

My experience being in and leading focus groups obviously differs from what you are expecting.
My experience with focus groups is involvement at all levels

• beginning the discussion with what the focus group members think about current state, issues, need for change and brainstorming changes from their viewpoint
• representatives of the focus groups participate in writing policies/procedures, reviewing and revising
• focus group members trying out the revisions and suggesting revisions based on their experience
• Repeat as needed.

Cheshire Figment was a Moderator on this board and was a longtime WDW CM with disabilities. He was involved in some focus groups for the change from GAC to DAS

 

[sprem96]

IMO, that wouldn’t work because again, the same disability can have very different needs.

And everyone experiences/handles disabilities differently (emotionally/physically/mentally)

 

[OurBigTrip]

And everyone experiences/handles disabilities differently (emotionally/physically/mentally)

Ok?

 

[gottalovepluto]

I've mentioned that in the past on this thread, most years I applied (I think I have had DAS 7 times over the past 8 years) I was asked about WHY I couldn't wait in lines maybe 2 times (once in person and once with online registration), majority of the time I just said I need it and they gave it with no fuss. If DAS has become a problem, that's where you need to start to resolve the issue, more scrutiny from CM's.

Wow. This backs up the PP whose lying sister just says my kid has ADHD and gets a DAS. I had no idea the CMs were not uniformly enforcing the no diagnosis, discuss actually needs policy

 

[sprem96]

Ok?

You don't agree? I know personally with my disability, I would be considered on the higher end of severity, but when within my first year of diagnosis, I had doctors advising surgery (they did surgery on far less severe situations) but I was very resilient and one doctor actually said he allowed me to keep trying to fighting until they could get me more stable ONLY because I showed very little signs of depression and he noted most patients had already given up sooner and in less severe cases. That is just 1 random situation where I was worse than others with the same condition but I had a higher physical tolerance to pain which allowed me to be more mentally tougher in the whole process. Hence a different experience from someone else, my needs are different from someone else depending on how good they can cope with what they are dealing with.

 

[sprem96]

Wow. This backs up the PP whose lying sister just says my kid has ADHD and gets a DAS. I had no idea the CMs were not uniformly enforcing the no diagnosis, discuss actually needs policy

I can't speak for the consistency of the online process. I went through it once in Aug 2023, but it was more parallel in how Universal was handling me over the years. Asked some surface questions of my disability, and focused on why I couldn't stay in a regular queue. I can only hope that's what it was since it moved online, but you can bet it will be that way starting May 20th for June 19th trips (May has an extra day, hence 19th in June).

 

[Jdavidm]

It likely occurred b/c they got data on how many rides their standby family guests can ever access just using the standby line during their day. 6 different rides was probably the max on a lower crowd day (and a higher crowd day was probably fewer) - remember, those folks with little kids still have to eat, go to the bathroom, possibly rider switch, and deal with naps and little kid meltdowns normally after waiting in lines, so even if ride times say more could happen, the data probably said it never did.

Thus, they likely have rock solid data saying this makes the park ride experience equivalent vs a standby user, and that those who want more rides can all purchase additional fast options. And that's all they need to do.

Valid points. I appreciate you sharing your perspective. I’m glad Sesame Place seems like such a welcoming environment for those on the spectrum!

I honestly rarely ever go on more than 6 rides at any theme park (with an accommodation) in one day but I guess for me the fact that the limitation exists is what feels harsh? If they have a process where you wait the total wait outside the line, then they would achieve the fairness they’re going for without putting a specific number limit from the beginning. However, if it’s true that it’s based on the average number of rides guests achieve via standby then that makes sense but without guests being aware of why the limitation exists it does come off unfair.

It appears to me that there are 2 different accommodations -- the (probably more common) Ride Accessibility Program or RAP, and then the PA park offers a "Special Access Pass" or SAP which is the one limited to 6 dry rides and 3 water rides. The CA park appears to only offer RAP, though it's possible they simply don't advertise the SAP.

The RAP sounds to be similar to the old paper DAS in that you go to the ride entrance and obtain a boarding time. In the CA parks it appears this is only offered at 6 attractions; with others referred to as "smaller attractions." Not being familiar with either park, it's possible those are the only attractions with longer waits -- thus the limit on the SAP in PA.

The SAP provides "priority boarding" which sounds like FOTL. The limit is 6 actual rides (not attractions), which can include the same attraction up to 2 times. It is likely they can limit the number of rides because this is "special access" and not the standard RAP.

The last time I looked at the Sesame Place Phila program, it was listed as the RAP. It appears that SAP is a different level of accommodation.

I do find it very interesting that Sesame Place does not utilize the IBCCES card, though Sea World does and I believe they are related companies.

If there’s different pass options then that’s great! It’s very possible. Sea World San Diego uses RAP and essentially only requires you to get a return time for the more popular rides (the rest you can access through the exit by waiting 1 or 2 ride cycles). I would understand limiting the front of the line privilege with SAP and allowing them to access all rides with RAP.

To make things even more odd, Sea World San Diego doesn’t utilize IBCCES either. It’s only the one in Orlando at the moment.

 

[lanejudy]

starting May 20th for June 19th trips

Actually, it's starting May 20th for ANY trips. Since people can pre-register "up to" 30 days out, there may well be folks pre-registering for trips that start May 22nd, May 30th, June 5th, June 19th or any other date.

June 19th will be the first date that EVERYONE using accommodations will be under the new system, since up to June 18th some folks could have registered 30 days prior under the old rules.

From May 20th - June 18th there will be a mix of guests who qualified for accommodations under both the old or the new rules.

 

[HyperspaceMountainPilot]

I suspect Disney already has a lawyer (or 2 or 3) who "specialize" in ADA who have been involved already. The new position may be hiring for someone whose primary responsibility will focus on anticipated litigation so as not to pull their other counsel away from broader responsibilities within the organization.

Yes, exactly. Didn’t mean to imply they didn’t have ADA attorneys already (as well as outside counsel they consult with).

I was actually thinking they might be hiring someone internally to handle the anticipated deluge of complaints stylized as legal threats/demands, instead of just caving or spending $5000 each time someone puts a threat on legal letterhead.

 

[Kgrace1989]

This is interesting to learn and I find it fascinating that this ride limit is only in place at Sesame Place in Pennsylvania and does not exist at Sesame Place San Diego (or any SeaWorld park for that matter) despite being run by the same company. I’m guessing this relates to state law differences? Or maybe they just never received enough push back about the rule…

But for a park that pushes being autism friendly that just seriously seems like an odd limit and far from reasonable when that person will likely not be able to access the other rides they don’t use their six RAP rides on. I’d agree that a limit of once per ride (but every ride) would feel at least somewhat more fair.

I simply can’t imagine being told “you can’t handle waiting in our queues so you’re only allowed to access six rides today” when paying the same entry fee as everyone else. Because telling someone that truly can’t wait standby that they only get to use their accommodation on six rides is the same as telling them they can only go on six rides. At least this information is available on their website so people can make an informed decision of whether it’s worth going with the accommodation the park is willing to offer.

I’ve certainly never heard of theme/amusement parks in CA or FL limiting the number of times/number of rides someone can access with their disability pass. I could be wrong and they exist but I think there’s a reason it’s not a thing here…

I feel like CA & FL are much more experienced in making their parks accessible to those with a disability since they are big vacation destinations that get a lot of out-of-state (and country) guests with disabilities versus a state like PA that probably gets mostly in state or neighboring state visitors (I say this as someone who grew up in Pennsylvania…people really don’t travel there for vacation… unless it’s to pass through on their way to New York ).

I really don’t think we would ever see something this limiting in CA or FL (especially at Disney). I think they would choose to limit all accommodations to disabled guest + 1 caregiver guest before they considered going this route of limiting the number of rides the disabled guest can access. Hopefully they never need to make either of those drastic change to accommodations though.

Just crazy to think this limitation exists anywhere!

It really is crazy… I had no idea that sort of set up would be legal . I’m stilll not sure how it is honestly, I mean if the line is only reachable by an alternate exit, it’s insane to tell someone they have to pick witch things to experience unlike a park guest that can experience all of it?…

Even though, I’ve been in the park… so I do wonder if perhaps some of the attractions are more like some of the attractions at another theme park for small kids in PA called Dutch Wonderland … some of them are sort of “walk up and ride” in the sense that there are a couple of slides there (water slides and then another like large twisty slide built Into a tree)… and then another attraction is this area with large building blocks (like oversized) and the kids just walk up and build with it (at least they did 10 years ago when I was there lol…
So maybe some of the attractions don’t even require a line

 

[lanejudy]

I was actually thinking they might be hiring someone internally to handle the anticipated deluge of complaints stylized as legal threats/demands, instead of just caving or spending $5000 each time someone puts a threat on legal letterhead.

Disney isn’t going to waste legal fees or a lawyer’s salary responding to complaints threatening a lawsuit. They’ll respond in court. I also don’t expect them to “cave” and settle out of court on this - they’ll want the official ruling.

Not all lawyers are “litigators” — those specialize presenting a case in court during a trial. Most lawyers don’t actually spend much time in a courtroom.