Cruises we cannot take for a legality.

[bobbiwoz]

Please explain this again.

November 26, 2017 Magic Leaves NYC goes to San Juan stops at British Virgin Islands. December 1 it leaves San Juan for Miami stopping at St Maarten, British VI, CC and ending in Miami.

We are not allowed to do both these, so we will pick the first leg. DH asked me to ask here why we cannot do both.

Our hang up is the Panama Canal cruises take you from one American port to another.

Thank you.
Bobbi

 

[PrincessShmoo]

Please explain this again.

November 26, 2017 Magic Leaves NYC goes to San Juan stops at British Virgin Islands. December 1 it leaves San Juan for Miami stopping at St Maarten, British VI, CC and ending in Miami.

We are not allowed to do both these, so we will pick the first leg. DH asked me to ask here why we cannot do both.

Our hang up is the Panama Canal cruises take you from one American port to another.

Thank you.
Bobbi

The law is called the Passenger Vessel Services Act (PVSA). It states that a foreign-flagged ship may not transport passengers from one US port to a different US port without making a call at a distant foreign port.

A distant foreign port is described as any port NOT "in North America, Central America, the Bermuda Islands, or the West Indies (including the Bahama Islands, but not including the Leeward Islands of the Netherlands Antilles, i.e., Aruba, Bonaire, and Curacao)." 19 CFR § 4.80a(a)(2)."

The exception is a cruise that begins or ends in Puerto Rico.

OK, with that background - While the first cruise is allowed, and the second cruise is allowed, together they are not allowed. The PVSA views B2B cruises as one cruise (as it's on the same ship). The B2B would transport you from NY to Miami without a stop in a distant foreign port.

If you're interested in reading all the legal-speak:
https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/documents/pvsa_icp_3.pdf

A Panama Canal cruise typically calls at a distant foreign port (usually Cartegena or Aruba).

 

[Hundredacre]

The law is called the Passenger Vessel Services Act (PVSA). It states that a foreign-flagged ship may not transport passengers from one US port to a different US port without making a call at a distant foreign port.

A distant foreign port is described as any port NOT "in North America, Central America, the Bermuda Islands, or the West Indies (including the Bahama Islands, but not including the Leeward Islands of the Netherlands Antilles, i.e., Aruba, Bonaire, and Curacao)." 19 CFR § 4.80a(a)(2)."

The exception is a cruise that begins or ends in Puerto Rico.

OK, with that background. While the first cruise is allowed, and the second cruise is allowed, together they are not allowed. The PVSA view B2B cruises as one cruise (as it's on the same ship). The B2B would transport you from NY to Miami without a stop in a distant foreign port.

If you're interested in reading all the legal-speak:
https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/documents/pvsa_icp_3.pdf

A Panama Canal cruise typically calls at a distant foreign port (usually Cartegena or Aruba).

Lord, that's ridiculous.

 

[bobbiwoz]

Lord, that's ridiculous.

I agree!


PrincessSchmoo....thank you! That law specifically negates the ports we were counting as foreign. A map proves Columbia is part of SA, not Central. We both understand we need to encourage DCL to do a San Jan, ABC islands, then Miami cruise, so we can do B2B!

Bobbi

 

[PrincessShmoo]

San Jan, ABC islands, then Miami cruise,

Only problem there is - the ABC islands are south of San Juan. That's the wrong direction for heading to Miami.

 

[anricat]

So why doesn't CC count? Because it seems to count for others. There's a 3-night out of PC that only stops at CC (other day is at sea). Since one leg of the cruise stops at CC, is that not a foreign port?

 

[PrincessShmoo]

So why doesn't CC count? Because it seems to count for others. There's a 3-night out of PC that only stops at CC (other day is at sea). Since one leg of the cruise stops at CC, is that not a foreign port?

A DISTANT foreign port is what's required.

As I said:

A distant foreign port is described as any port NOT "in North America, Central America, the Bermuda Islands, or the West Indies (including the Bahama Islands, but not including the Leeward Islands of the Netherlands Antilles, i.e., Aruba, Bonaire, and Curacao)." 19 CFR § 4.80a(a)(2)."

Castaway Cay is not a distant port, as it's in the Bahamas. It's a "near" foreign port.

Any round trip cruise (begins and ends in the same US port) doesn't fall under these restrictions. A closed loop cruise only has to call at any foreign port (near or distant).

 

[bobbiwoz]

Only problem there is - the ABC islands are south of San Juan. That's the wrong direction for heading to Miami.

I know, but it would work.

With lots of sea days!

 

[saxmangeoff]

First off, props to PrincessShmoo for one of the best explanations I've seen of this fairly confusing law.

Second, it sounds convoluted, because it is. The law was passed in 1886, and is intended to protect American passenger vessels from having their business taken by foreign vessels. These days, passenger ships are almost all foreign. But Disney is American, you say. True, but the DCL ships sail under the flag of the Bahamas. (I assume that is also for various technical, legal, and/or tax reasons.)

So, in essence, in 1886, it was determined that U.S ships should be preferred to transport U.S. citizens between U.S. cities. In that context, it makes some sense. There is the loophole of visiting a foreign port, so you'll notice that's what cruises do.

For example: Alaska cruises usually originate from Vancouver, B.C. or Seattle. From Vancouver, no problem, since you start in a foreign country. But for Seattle, sailing to ports in Alaska, the cruise has to stop in a foreign port, so the Seattle cruises all stop in Victoria, B.C. (Some even have very short port times in Victoria. They're just fulfilling the technicality. Since they're returning to the same port they started, they can visit any foreign port, no need for a distant foreign port, and Victoria isn't too far out of the way.)

Example #2: Norwegian Cruise Line sails under the Bahamian flag as well. Except for one ship. Their "Pride of America" sails under the U.S. flag, so it can do Hawaiian cruises without needing to visit a foreign port.

There's a pretty good write-up at Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_Vessel_Services_Act_of_1886

 

[SuperDry]

Any round trip cruise (begins and ends in the same US port) doesn't fall under these restrictions. A closed loop cruise only has to call at any foreign port (near or distant).

The reason that there's a distinction between closed-loop and other cruises that begin and end in different US ports is their perceived nature. It's pretty clear that a closed-loop cruise is being done just for leisure. However, a cruise that begins and ends in different US ports is providing transportation between those two points in addition to whatever leisure component there may be. It might prove difficult to distinguish in the law between a utilitarian ferry-type service that is mainly transport but provides some amenities (such as food and perhaps overnight accommodations) and a cruise ship which is mainly leisure but also provides transportation. So, they just prohibit it altogether for trips between US points for foreign-registered vessels.

It's very similar as to the rules for airlines: while there are lots of foreign airlines and foreign-registered aircraft that fly in and out of the US every day, only US-registered aircraft, operated by a US-based airline, may fly passengers or cargo between points in the US. This is what ensures that there is a vibrant domestic airline industry. As saxmangeoff pointed out, that was the original idea between having the rules apply to ships as well, although unlike airlines, it ended up making the domestic cruise market almost non-existent.

 

[bumbershoot]

And it's been explained to me on cruisecritic that if you switched ships/lines to do this, then it's totally legal. Er, well, I think they said ships. Maybe they just said cruiselines. I really should take notes.

 

[PrincessShmoo]

And it's been explained to me on cruisecritic that if you switched ships/lines to do this, then it's totally legal. Er, well, I think they said ships. Maybe they just said cruiselines. I really should take notes.

Yes, if you switch ships, it works. The point is the same ship is not transporting you from one US port to a different US port. That's why I said that each one of those cruises (NY/San Juan & San Juan/Miami) are allowed, even though San Juan is technically a US port. Puerto Rico is an exception to the law.

But, of course, there's no second DCL ship to switch to, so in this case it would have to be a different cruise line as well.

 

[Flossbolna]

It's very similar as to the rules for airlines: while there are lots of foreign airlines and foreign-registered aircraft that fly in and out of the US every day, only US-registered aircraft, operated by a US-based airline, may fly passengers or cargo between points in the US. This is what ensures that there is a vibrant domestic airline industry. As saxmangeoff pointed out, that was the original idea between having the rules apply to ships as well, although unlike airlines, it ended up making the domestic cruise market almost non-existent.

I also think the domestic ferry service market is more or less non existent. While people might have still had interest in travelling from New York to Miami by boat in the late 19th century, really only 0.0000001% of the population today would actually view this trip as "transportation" as compared to a leisure cruise.

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

And it's been explained to me on cruisecritic that if you switched ships/lines to do this, then it's totally legal. Er, well, I think they said ships. Maybe they just said cruiselines. I really should take notes.

The Jones acts, can be complicated.........I am wondering ........the Magic is starting a new voyage with new passenger list.....The OP is leaving the vessel totally....signing off and clearing customs.........would this be enough avoid a legal problem?...............Yes I know I am stretching things thin here.

The best thing to do would be to call DCL and ask.

AKK

 

[FigmentSpark]

What if you got off in San Juan and waited for the next time the ship was going back to Miami? It's the same thing with a vacation in San Juan first.

 

[OKW Lover]

Interesting discussion. I wonder why the cruise lines (jointly or severally) haven't mounted a campaign to repeal the act. It would seem to me that getting the act repealed would open up a lot more interesting itineraries for them, attracting more customers. Not sure who would be harmed by repealing the act, with the possible exception of NCL's Pride of America in Hawaii.

 

[PrincessShmoo]

The Jones acts, can be complicated.........I am wondering ........the Magic is starting a new voyage with new passenger list.....The OP is leaving the vessel totally....signing off and clearing customs.........would this be enough avoid a legal problem?...............Yes I know I am stretching things thin here.

The best thing to do would be to call DCL and ask.

AKK

First, it's the Passenger Vessel Services Act. Not the Jones Act (that deals with cargo)

No, just getting off and reboarding doesn't work. It's often been suggested (particularly on the first Alaska season DCL did sailing out of Seattle) whether that would work. The answer is no. PVSA rulings have always been that as long as the trip is continued on the same ship, immediately, it's considered one cruise, regardless if the passengers actually debark, clear customs/immigration, reboard into a different room.

It's been asked before. By other cruiselines besides DCL.

What I'm referring to was when DCL booked many people B2B on the LA to Vancouver repo cruise and the first Alaska cruise which was Vancouver to Seattle. I tried to put up flags here and on other boards, to all people who booked that to call DCL and push the issue up to chain of command. That this was illegal. At first DCL said "it's no problem". But, about 2 months out from the first one of those cruises DCL found out that they were going to be fined $300 per guest that did that B2B and notified everyone that they had to cancel one leg or the other. It was a mess. I guess DCL felt that the laws that applied to all other cruise lines (the ones who've been doing those cruises for years and had already learned their lesson) didn't apply to them. Surprise!

 

[PrincessShmoo]

What if you got off in San Juan and waited for the next time the ship was going back to Miami? It's the same thing with a vacation in San Juan first.

Yes, that would work. As long as the 2 cruises are not B2B, it's not considered a single cruise. Is the ship returning to San Juan?

Interesting discussion. I wonder why the cruise lines (jointly or severally) haven't mounted a campaign to repeal the act. It would seem to me that getting the act repealed would open up a lot more interesting itineraries for them, attracting more customers. Not sure who would be harmed by repealing the act, with the possible exception of NCL's Pride of America in Hawaii.

It's been proposed several times to change the PVSA. However, the proposed "new" law was often more restrictive. For example one recent proposal meant that the ports of call for a ship had be include more than 50% of them being a foreign port, plus visits to the foreign ports must be 24-48 hours minimum in length.

I doubt that the shipping industry would ever be behind a total repeal of the law. Or even any changes.

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

First, it's the Passenger Vessel Services Act. Not the Jones Act (that deals with cargo)

No, just getting off and reboarding doesn't work. It's often been suggested (particularly on the first Alaska season DCL did sailing out of Seattle) whether that would work. The answer is no. PVSA rulings have always been that as long as the trip is continued on the same ship, immediately, it's considered one cruise, regardless if the passengers actually debark, clear customs/immigration, reboard into a different room.

It's been asked before. By other cruiselines besides DCL.

What I'm referring to was when DCL booked many people B2B on the LA to Vancouver repo cruise and the first Alaska cruise which was Vancouver to Seattle. I tried to put up flags here and on other boards, to all people who booked that to call DCL and push the issue up to chain of command. That this was illegal. At first DCL said "it's no problem". But, about 2 months out from the first one of those cruises DCL found out that they were going to be fined $300 per guest that did that B2B and notified everyone that they had to cancel one leg or the other. It was a mess. I guess DCL felt that the laws that applied to all other cruise lines (the ones who've been doing those cruises for years and had already learned their lesson) didn't apply to them. Surprise!

Hi Shmoo,

I was just wondering is all.............seems this issue as been hashed over pretty good!

As to the Jones acts.............in the industry, all the Jones acts and the PVSA are usually grouped together and referred to as the Jones Acts......after all.............passengers are cargo! .


AKK

 

[PrincessShmoo]

after all.............passengers are cargo! .

Sometimes it feels that way.