Credit Card fraud vent - Update pg 5 #61

[AKL_Megs]

All I know is that DH's debit card number (a Visa-branded debit card...) was stolen and used to make online purchases (as a CREDIT card, obviously), and it was a PITA for him to get his money back. Not so much that they didn't want to do it, but rather, the time it took to get it done.

Of course, this was with Charter One bank, and they are TERRIBLE.

I think it took something like a month for them to refund his money. A month, and many, many calls and visits to the bank.

 

[jlewisinsyr]

You did--in your first post.

It seems anytime someone has a bank card issue--someone has to chime in on how horrible debit cards are and how credit cards are better for protection against fraud.

It isn't true.

I specified DEBIT cards and what I said was true, it was not false, in your words, thank you for playing. I did make a mistake as the OP mentioned/implied cobranded cards, but what I said although not specifc to the OP still applies.

The best card is a charge card to use for purchases, it keeps your charges seperate from your true cash and doesn't incur interest as it must be paid in full, a contested charge is seperated away from the rest of your purchases and it doesn't effect your current cash on hand. The next best would be a credit card (due to non-fraud related protections), followed by a co-branded card and lastly a pure debit card.

Ask a bank which card you should use when you travel, especially internationally, they will say a charge or credit card because of the protections and seperating your cash from your expenses.

 

[C.Ann]

The worst card you can carry in your wallet is a debit card, it offers limited protections unlike a credit card and your limits of liability is much higher on a debit card versus a credit card.

Nope..

---------------------------------------

That's not true, but thanks for posting.

They have the exact same coverage as a credit card when used as a credit card.

Their policy applies to credit AND debit cards used as credit. ( a stolen debit used as a debit means that someone gave them their pin code and thus implied authorization)

http://usa.visa.com/personal/security/visa_security_program/zero_liability.html#anchor_4

The protections aren't limited to any dollar amount.


OP--unrelated to fraud, I keep a separate account for spending. Mostly so I don't accidently take too much out and then the account is short for the mortgage payment. I only transfer funds as needed.

Some people opt to do that as an extra layer of protection in case of fraud.

But it is the card I use for everything form airplane tix, to hotel, to grocery shopping and gas.

And never had a problem.

You can quote whatever you want, but VISA (and MC) maintain an identical policy.

I'm not painting CC's with a big brush--but please stop glorifying them as something fabulous and safer than a debit card.

Visa (and MC) REQUIRE instititutions utilizing their logo to follow thier posted rules--bit it a credit card or a debit card.

FTC has minimum requirements, VISA and MC exceed them. Until which time that they change their policy--claiming they are different is a falsehood.

And no--you are not out of money until it is resolved. But again--thank you for playing.

When a debit/credit is used fraudulently (or not-fraudulently), the bank automatically knows how it was ran.

These were credit charges--and thus is no different than a credit card branded under Visa or Mastercard.

Note--FWIW, at anytime they can change yoru magical credit card policies as well.

No need to demonize debit cards.

Correct..

ONCE AGAIN to I reiterate, DEBIT cards, not co-branded are not covered by the same rules as credit cards.

I have never heard of - or even laid eyes on - a debit card that is not "co-branded".. Not only are all of mine co-branded, but the individual banks involved with my cards offer protection above and beyond what the major credit card companies do..

Where would one even acquire a debit card that isn't co-branded?

 

[jlewisinsyr]

Nope..

Please explain why a DEBIT card is not the worst (note, I didn't not say co-branded debit card or debit/credit - figured I'd again clarify this because it seems no one is picking up on this).

Where would one even acquire a debit card that isn't co-branded? [/B]

There are tons out there, most banks offer them, they just don't market them as much.

 

[sunnyday123]

OP, before it gets really ugly here, PM me if you need help. I work in the fraud area of a credit card company, so I can help you with the dispute process, and let you know what they'll be doing and how they'll get your money back. There have been a lot of changes recently, and things have to be done quickly on their end so make sure you follow all of their directions. And follow up with a written letter to protect your rights.

You might want to also look up the Fair Credit Billing Act and become familiar with it.

 

[manning]

Is this what you mean when you refer to a co-branded card?

Co-branded credit cards are co-sponsored by two companies and have benefits and rewards designed specifically for their joint customers. For example, the American Express Delta SkyMiles Card is a co-branded credit card for people who travel frequently on Delta Airlines that offers Cardmembers exclusive travel discounts and other benefits. Other popular co-branded cards are available to owners or prospective owners of automobiles, investors in mutual funds and credit union members.

 

[jlewisinsyr]

Is this what you mean when you refer to a co-branded card?

Cobranded also used to reference debit cards with a Visa or Mastercard logo...there is probably a more modern term for this now...(although often they say Visa Debit or Mastercard Debit cards).

 

[laurie31]

No, that is something different. That is about credit cards.

What's being discussed is co-branded debit cards. Like a Visa debit. Not just a plain ol' debit card from your local bank. I would NEVER have a plain debit card for the reasons that have been posted here. Lots of people do have them though, and that's their business. I see nothing wrong with a co-branded debit card. (in other words a debit/credit card), although I personally don't use one.



Actually, what the OP meant to discuss is the frustration over having your card - no matter what type of card it is - compromised. It's a HUGE PITA!!

It's happened to us, twice. Once with our Discover Card. I bought airline tickets and somehow the charges got run twice. That was actually sorted put pretty easily. Obvioulsy I didn't buy TWO identical sets of airline tickets. There was no actual fraud and we didn't have to cancel the card.

The other time was with our MasterCard (a credit card only). This was horrible, because it was true fraud. I had not been a victim of phishing but the fraud department said sometimes thieves would try numbers at random and luck up on a valid one. Someone in another country tried to buy tires with my card number. So we had to get a new number and all the bills I had set up to auto-pay on that card had to be totally redone. Oh my gosh, it took the better part of forerver. OP, I feel your pain. It is SUCH a nightmare to spend all that time on the phone. Even though our card's fraud protection department was very nice and professional, getting everything switched over was just...horrible. (I had to re-set each account individually. The card people couldn't help me do that, which I understand, but it was a loathsome experience). I hope we never go through that again!

OP -

 

[manning]

Maybe we can stop this bickering contest with this bit of info.


This is from Kiplinger a Washington, D.C.-based publisher of business forecasts and personal finance advice,

http://www.kiplinger.com/columns/fitness/archive/2001/ff20010808.htm

Debit or Credit: Which Card is Safer?
Even though they can look and act the same, debit and credit cards have different legal protections.
By Ronaleen Roha

August 8, 2001

few years ago it was easy to tell the difference between a credit card and a debit card. You used your debit card at the ATM with a personal identification number, and you used your credit card for purchases. But today both types of cards carry familiar credit company logos, both can be swiped at the checkout counter and both can be used to make online purchases.

But even though debit and credit cards look and act the same, legal protections and the steps to settle problem purchases are quite different.

To protect and serve
Government regulations and voluntary industry policies will protect you if a credit or debit card is used to make unauthorized purchases. But the protections for credit cards are much broader.

•Credit cards. Under federal law, if someone steals your credit card you're only responsible to pay the first $50 of unauthorized charges. And, says FTC lawyer Carol Reynolds, if you notify the issuer before the thief makes any charges, you may not be out anything. You're also free from liability if unauthorized purchases occur when the card is not physically present, say in an Internet purchase, she says.

Zero-liability policies, like those offered by Visa and MasterCard, add a second layer of protection. Under these programs you won't pay anything if someone fraudulently uses your credit card online or off.


•Debit cards. The rules are similar for debit cards, but there are a few restrictions. For example, your liability under federal law is limited to $50, but only if you notify the issuer within two business days of discovering the card's loss or theft. Your liability could jump to $500 if you put it off. And even this cap is lifted if you wait more than 60 calendar days from the time your bank statement is mailed.

Federal protections are a bit more generous if a thief just steals your debit card number (and not the actual card), but you still have 60 days after receiving your bank statement to report any unauthorized transactions.


The Visa and MasterCard zero-liability policies also apply to debit cards, but only to non-PIN transactions. If a thief steals your card and your PIN, the federal rules are your only defense.

For additional protection check your homeowners or renter's insurance policy. Most cover up to $500 for losses from unauthorized card use. And no matter which card is stolen, always follow up with a certified letter to your issuer -- return receipt requested.

Which card when?

Signature or PIN?
One difference between using a PIN and signing your debit card receipt is the speed at which the funds are removed from your checking account. PIN transactions usually clear within 24 hours; signature transactions can take two to three days, on average.

Check with your bank to see if there are any fees associated with either type of transaction (such as foreign-use fees or surcharges).


Your best bet is to "limit your use of debit cards to cash-and-carry types of purchases," says Susan Grant, vice president for public policy at the National Consumers League, such as for groceries, at the gas station or dry cleaners.

But for expensive or sight-unseen purchases (those made over the Internet or by phone), credit cards offer much more protection. For instance, you can contest a credit card charge for a product that arrives broken, or if the product you bought stops working after two weeks.

To get the rules on disputing a charge, check with your credit card issuer or download the Federal Trade Commission brochure, "Facts for Consumers: Fair Credit Billing."

"With a credit card, if you dispute a charge, it is taken off the record," says Ken McEldowney, executive director of Consumer Action, in San Francisco. "With a debit card purchase you are fighting to get your funds back into your account."

This gives you less leverage. You can contact your card issuer to see if they'll handle the dispute, but you'll probably have to take on the merchant yourself. And even if you succeed, you may be stuck with whatever the store policy is for cash or check returns

 

[ferris198]

Actually what I did post is true, a DEBIT card (not a co-branded card) is not covered under the same limit's to liability as a co-branded debit card. The Federal Trade Commission states that a person can be liable for up to $500 of fraudulent debit card charges while the maximum for credit card charges is $50 (banks can choose to reduce or eliminate liabilities, but they do not have to). PINS can be obtained many ways, from hacked ATMs and PIN Terminals or stolen wallets, so do not assume all PIN transactions carry some sort of valid or implied authorization.

That said, I didn't catch that she had written debit/credit, which would imply a co-brand card. Credit cards still offer more protections (even outside of fraud), like travel protections, extended warranty protections, damage protections, etc, these usually (there are a few exceptions) do not carry over to debit cards. For some reason many people like to paint credit cards with this big negative brush when it's not the credit card that is the problem, it's overspending that is. A credit card (or charge card) can be great tools in your financial tool kit.

Another negative about using a cobranded debit card is that you are leaving yourself at risk until the fraud is investigated (sometimes things will be resolved immediately, other times it could take days to weeks for research to be finished). With a credit card, the risk is contained, with a debit card, you're out the money until it's resolved (again in most cases).

You can wax as poetically as you wish, but it doesn't matter if they take
your number or debit card info.
I am currently dealing with an issue were a person went into my bank and has been able to change and access my info;.

 

[bumbershoot]

I have never heard of - or even laid eyes on - a debit card that is not "co-branded".. Not only are all of mine co-branded, but the individual banks involved with my cards offer protection above and beyond what the major credit card companies do..

Where would one even acquire a debit card that isn't co-branded?

Think back 15 or more years ago. That's all that was out there.

They do still exist, I've heard of people specifically requesting them. They only want something that will work with a PIN or at the ATM, and that's IT.

Cobranded also used to reference debit cards with a Visa or Mastercard logo...there is probably a more modern term for this now...(although often they say Visa Debit or Mastercard Debit cards).

I don't hear it anymore, but "check card" is what they were called when I first got a Visa/MC debit card.



Now while I don't think that the basic, ancient, hard to come by "debit" card is what should come to mind during conversations like this, jlewis is correct. A true, old fashioned debit card has nearly no protections.

The newfangled thing with the logo on it, however, does have protections.

Everyone's right, everyone wins, but everyone's rules were worded just slightly differently.


OP I'm sorry that happened to you!!!!!!!!!

 

[luvthatdisney]

OP, I just wanted to let you know there are alot of us out here that have gone through the same thing. It is a big PITA and also instilled a fear in me about carrying any kind of debit and/or credit card.

A few years ago, DH and I ate at a local restaurant and I paid with my Visa branded debit card. The waitress had to run it as credit as they did not have a keypad for my pin. At the time, I noticed nothing strange, but she did walk off with my card and brought it back to the table so i could sign the receipt. A few weeks later, I noticed 3 charges in my checking account online. They were still pending and I did not recognize them so I called the bank. They said that since they were so new, they did not have all of the information yet and they could not stop them. They did tell me the names of the stores making the charges. After I verified I did not make them they switched me to the fraud department at our bank and I had to fill out paperwork and fax it to them.

Our account did go into the negative due to this and could have caused many more bounced checks if I would not have seen it as soon as I did. The bank did not deny any outstanding checks (I had to tell them what I still had outstanding) and they returned all of my funds within 2 days. BIG PITA. We wracked our brains trying to figure out who stole our number, so Dh called one of the stores and found out one of the charges was made to a rent to own furniture store. The person called in and made a credit card payment on their account over the phone, she tried one card and it would not go through, so ours was the second card she tried. The store clerk thought it was weird she was doing that so he kept all of the card numbers just in case. She also charged $300 on a phone order for Avon, I think she must have bought Christmas presents (this was in December) and ordered something else via the phone (cant remember that store name).

We called the police from that store and the clerk gave them all the information from her credit line with that store. That included her employer which was the restaurant we ate at. Come to find out she had done this numerous times and had just written down all the info from the card, name, exp date, card number and the 3 digit code on the back of the card and she was good. I do recall that she asked us just in conversation we thought, if we lived in a certain town, and we replied no we live in this town, so she had our zip code too!

I say all of that just to tell you it is very easy to get your card number stolen, it never leaves my hands now. I use cash alot more than I used to. Granted we were not out our money for an extended time, but it was very frustrating and a big hassel to deal with. I still get updates from the court regarding her trial, as of now she has received no punishment (2 years later).

OP I feel your pain

 

[laurie31]

OP, I just wanted to let you know there are alot of us out here that have gone through the same thing. It is a big PITA and also instilled a fear in me about carrying any kind of debit and/or credit card.

A few years ago, DH and I ate at a local restaurant and I paid with my Visa branded debit card. The waitress had to run it as credit as they did not have a keypad for my pin. At the time, I noticed nothing strange, but she did walk off with my card and brought it back to the table so i could sign the receipt. A few weeks later, I noticed 3 charges in my checking account online. They were still pending and I did not recognize them so I called the bank. They said that since they were so new, they did not have all of the information yet and they could not stop them. They did tell me the names of the stores making the charges. After I verified I did not make them they switched me to the fraud department at our bank and I had to fill out paperwork and fax it to them.

Our account did go into the negative due to this and could have caused many more bounced checks if I would not have seen it as soon as I did. The bank did not deny any outstanding checks (I had to tell them what I still had outstanding) and they returned all of my funds within 2 days. BIG PITA. We wracked our brains trying to figure out who stole our number, so Dh called one of the stores and found out one of the charges was made to a rent to own furniture store. The person called in and made a credit card payment on their account over the phone, she tried one card and it would not go through, so ours was the second card she tried. The store clerk thought it was weird she was doing that so he kept all of the card numbers just in case. She also charged $300 on a phone order for Avon, I think she must have bought Christmas presents (this was in December) and ordered something else via the phone (cant remember that store name).

We called the police from that store and the clerk gave them all the information from her credit line with that store. That included her employer which was the restaurant we ate at. Come to find out she had done this numerous times and had just written down all the info from the card, name, exp date, card number and the 3 digit code on the back of the card and she was good. I do recall that she asked us just in conversation we thought, if we lived in a certain town, and we replied no we live in this town, so she had our zip code too!

I say all of that just to tell you it is very easy to get your card number stolen, it never leaves my hands now. I use cash alot more than I used to. Granted we were not out our money for an extended time, but it was very frustrating and a big hassel to deal with. I still get updates from the court regarding her trial, as of now she has received no punishment (2 years later).

OP I feel your pain

I have read that most cases of fraud and identity theft happen from someone physically getting the number, rather than from internet or phishing scams. That is really scary! The 3 digit number is gone from the back of my card. It just rubbed off over time, but now I'm really glad it's gone! Maybe someone would think twice about stealing my card info if they couldn't get that number.

That was really savvy of the girl to think to get your zip code too!

 

[golfgal]

ONCE AGAIN to I reiterate, DEBIT cards, not co-branded are not covered by the same rules as credit cards. PLAIN AND SIMPLE! I made it clear I did not notice the OP indicated "debit/credit" in their post, implying a co-brand, which again I AGREE carry some of the same fraud protections. I do not think I CLAIMED anything different, please READ before you jump down someone's throat!

ALSO, to reiterate, fraud protections are guaranteed to carry over from Credit Card to Co-Branded Debit, but other coverages DO NOT necessarily carry over, like extended warranty protections, etc, so in that case, CREDIT CARDS can offer features and protections that ARE NOT covered by co-branded DEBIT cards.

To answer your FWIW, rules can be changed on co-branded debit cards just as much as on credit cards (well in line with the new CARD act - which limits changes). Banks have been raising fees, adding fees, etc to both types of cards, and will probably continue to do so. So in contrast, NO NEED TO DEMONIZE CREDIT CARDS!

Does anyone even have a debit card that isn't cobranded these days? I haven't seen one in YEARS that isn't a Visa/Mastercard.

 

[Maridw]

My DH called me this morning and the last charge for just over $500 was able to be stopped. He is working with the bank and we contacted the fraud alert department at DHL to see what information we can get from them. He has also contacted UPS to see what they can tell us about who used our card.

We filled out a fraudulent use form and explained the last time we used the card and when we found out that someone had the number.

As I said, thankfully the bank was able to stop the last charge. Now we will have to wait and see how long it will take us to get the other money back.

Thank you for all the good thoughts.

SunnyDay123 I will probably be PM'ing you if I do have questions.

PS - ours is a Visa branded debit/credit card. We got rid of all our other cards as a personal choice for both of us. We really didn't need them and so got rid of them.

 

[Took]

My DH called me this morning and the last charge for just over $500 was able to be stopped. He is working with the bank and we contacted the fraud alert department at DHL to see what information we can get from them. He has also contacted UPS to see what they can tell us about who used our card.

We filled out a fraudulent use form and explained the last time we used the card and when we found out that someone had the number.

As I said, thankfully the bank was able to stop the last charge. Now we will have to wait and see how long it will take us to get the other money back.

Thank you for all the good thoughts.

SunnyDay123 I will probably be PM'ing you if I do have questions.

PS - ours is a Visa branded debit/credit card. We got rid of all our other cards as a personal choice for both of us. We really didn't need them and so got rid of them.

Maridw, good for you! I do want to add, based on our recent experience with fraud, that you should triple check the debit statements to make SURE the payment was stopped. We were told my our Mastercard that they had done this twice over but the charge was allowed to go through anyway. We were livid and it took two months to get it straightened out.

 

[DancingBear]

The debit card rules reflect two things--one is tha that you have to report a loss of a card within two days of when you discover the loss. Not really that big a deal, I assume any of us would do that.

The OP's situation was about unauthorized charges rather than someone using a lost card. Those are dealt with like they would be if someone did any other fraudulent transaction with respect to your bank account, like if they stole your checks and forged your name, or changed the amount on a check you wrote. That is, you are not generally responsible for those fraudulent transactions, but you have a responsibility to review your bank statements and report any issues in a timely manner (within 60 days).

 

[merryweather20]

Your credit line can be gone for several days--FTC doesn't say that it has to be restored instantly.

To some--they would panic and squirm when they don't have access to plastic and they need to by gas or groceries.

To insinuate otherwise is dishonest.

And yes, we still have credit cards. I just don't feel the need to go and shame someone with falsehoods when their co-branded debit card got hacked.

The charge on the account could be up for several days, but my money is still in the bank account.

To insinuate otherwise is dishonest.

If someone was using plastic there is no need to panic and squirm because they can still use the money thats in the bank. That hasn't left, even for two days.

To insinuate otherwise is dishonest.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

NM.

Zipping it.

 

[scrapquitler]

Does anyone even have a debit card that isn't cobranded these days? I haven't seen one in YEARS that isn't a Visa/Mastercard.

You mean a 'regular atm card'? I do. It can't be run thru as a credit card, and you have to use the pin number to make it work.