Creation or Evolution - Which side are you on?

[toto2]

Thern why did God invented those product that gives you cancer ?

 

[daisax]

I find that very interesting as I was raised Catholic, attended parochial school from K-12 and went to Mass every Sunday and never once was I taught that the Bible was full of stories....quite the opposite.

Just last year (I think) the Pope issued a very strongly worded message that the bible was NOT to be taken literally, and in fact it was dangerous to do so.

It was considered a slap at Fundamentalists at the time.

Position of the Church vis a vis evolution (from catholic.com)

Concerning cosmological evolution, the Church has infallibly defined that the universe was specially created out of nothing. Vatican I solemnly defined that everyone must "confess the world and all things which are contained in it, both spiritual and material, as regards their whole substance, have been produced by God from nothing" (Canons on God the Creator of All Things, canon 5).

The Church does not have an official position on whether the stars, nebulae, and planets we see today were created at that time or whether they developed over time (for example, in the aftermath of the Big Bang that modern cosmologists discuss). However, the Church would maintain that, if the stars and planets did develop over time, this still ultimately must be attributed to God and his plan, for Scripture records: "By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and all their host [stars, nebulae, planets] by the breath of his mouth" (Ps. 33:6).

Concerning biological evolution, the Church does not have an official position on whether various life forms developed over the course of time. However, it says that, if they did develop, then they did so under the impetus and guidance of God, and their ultimate creation must be ascribed to him.

Concerning human evolution, the Church has a more definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that man’s body developed from previous biological forms, under God’s guidance, but it insists on the special creation of his soul. Pope Pius XII declared that "the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—[but] the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God" (Pius XII, Humani Generis 36). So whether the human body was specially created or developed, we are required to hold as a matter of Catholic faith that the human soul is specially created; it did not evolve, and it is not inherited from our parents, as our bodies are.

Pius took that position back in 1950, so it's hardly a "new" position of the church.

As the Catechism puts it, "Methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things the of the faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are" (CCC 159). The Catholic Church has no fear of science or scientific discovery.

Here's coverage of an encyclical from John Paul II in 1996... and for what it's worth, the encyclical was written/prepared by Cardinal Ratzinger... who is now Pope Benedict.

"In a major statement of the Roman Catholic Church’s position on the theory of evolution, Pope John Paul II has proclaimed that the theory is ‘more than just a hypothesis’ and that evolution is compatible with Christian faith. In a written message to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, the pope said the theory of evolution has been buttressed by scientific studies and discoveries since Charles Darwin . .

" ‘It is indeed remarkable that this theory has progressively taken root in the minds of researchers following a series of discoveries made in different spheres of knowledge,’ the Pope said in his message Wednesday. ‘The convergence, neither sought nor provoked, of results of studies undertaken independently from each other constitutes, in itself, a significant argument in favor of this theory’ . .

"The Pope’s message went much further in accepting the theory of evolution as a valid explanation of the development of life on Earth, with one major exception: the human soul. ‘If the human has its origin in living material which preexists it, the spiritual soul is immediately created by God,’ the Pope said."—Chicago Tribune, October 25, 1996.

As for the argument that life is so miraculous and beautiful that only a God could have created it, I tend to think that an Omnipotent God could have done better, frankly -- we get sick, we die, we aren't really built to last all that long...seems to me that His concerns are spiritual and he kind of half-assed the physical side of things

 

[Bust*A*Stitch]

I don't think anywhere in the bible it says the earth is perfect, thats usually the words of a preacher trying to paint a rosy picture, or parents telling a fairy tale at bed time.

The whole point of the Bible is to teach how to get BACK to a perfect place.

Now Eden was perfect, but Eden was destroyed by God when he evicted Adam and Eve, that was one of many punishments for their disobedience and listening to another of gods creations Satan, a fallen angel.

That was the monkey wrench that through everything off, its like being done with that 1000 piece puzzle and then having your cat run on to the table and slide the thing off into the floor to fall apart.

Take what I say, what anyone says with a large grain of salt people, read the Bible yourself, your curiouse if your reading this thread to begin with, but just realize man is an evil entity, it will do anything, say anything to get what it wants.

Most of the time its with good intentions, but the outcomes can be quite messy, so get off your rear, and do the research yourself, the same is true for any decision you make, be it parenting, political, or simply what movie you want to go see. People lie, so don't take their word for it, read it and make your own decision.

And guys and gals, its not going to be a Harry Potter no sleep till its a done deal, read a chapter, think it over, re read it again, then right the questions down you have, cynical or not, and then start asking, that way you know if the people your asking know what they are talking about or are just full of it.

 

[toto2]

Take what I say, what anyone says with a large grain of salt people, read the Bible yourself, your curiouse if your reading this thread to begin with, but just realize man is an evil entity, it will do anything, say anything to get what it wants.

Most of the time its with good intentions, but the outcomes can be quite messy, so get off your rear, and do the research yourself, the same is true for any decision you make, be it parenting, political, or simply what movie you want to go see. People lie, so don't take their word for it, read it and make your own decision.

And guys and gals, its not going to be a Harry Potter no sleep till its a done deal, read a chapter, think it over, re read it again, then right the questions down you have, cynical or not, and then start asking, that way you know if the people your asking know what they are talking about or are just full of it.

But we, who believe in evolution could tell you the exact same thing: take what we say with a grain of salt and and go read the scientific studies for your self , dont believe what poeple say. Go study the geological data , go read what hundreds and hundreds of scientists have discovered. Dont believe me ! But the data is so big , scientific languge is sometime so difficult to understand that we often take the simple answere : Mud , man , rib women , garden , original sin, all in simple words easy to understand

 

[Bust*A*Stitch]

Thern why did God invented those product that gives you cancer ?

He didn't invent product. He invented flowers and plants to eat ( all animals were vegitarian until the earth populace was to large for the plant life to sustain us) and soil and rock to for us to walk on.

Man chose to put certain seeds and leaves together and smoke it, Man chose to start playing with this thing called crude oil that came out of te ground and that no one in thier right mind would ingest, and now unless you grew it yourself the majority of the food you eat has either been wrapped, slaughtered, cooked, shipped, or spayed with some sort of crude oil item.(plastic and varnishes)

Just last year (I think) the Pope issued a very strongly worded message that the bible was NOT to be taken literally, and in fact it was dangerous to do so.

I don't trust anyone in a place of religouse power, ESPECIALLY the Catholic Church. Thier positions change faster than most politicians do, ohh, sorry they were the politicians for almost the entire last 1500 years.

 

[RC Fan]

I believe that "God" is a creation of man. I also 100% believe in evolution.

Well put--this is my feeling as well.

 

[Bust*A*Stitch]

But we, who believe in evolution could tell you the exact same thing: take what we say with a grain of salt and and go read the scientific studies for your self , dont believe what poeple say. Go study the geological data , go read what hundreds and hundreds of scientists have discovered. Dont believe me ! But the data is so big , scientific languge is sometime so difficult to understand that we often take the simple answere : Mud , man , rib women , garden , original sin, all in simple words easy to understand

Trust me ( haha) its not the simple answer.
The whole problem with this debate is that scientist can only truly study what they can physically study.

And thats the main reason the fast majority of the world's populace still has some form of religion even when they have a scientific understanding in their culture. Thats why most of the post remarks were asking for a both poll answer than the black and white answers that were given.

Big bang theory and creation, You say if their is a God, who created God.
I ask if there was a big bang ( yes their was) were did all the matter come from if that was the scientific beginning of existence. thats the chicken and the egg question.

simple answer : Mud , man , rib women , garden , original sin, all in simple words easy to understand.

Mud= scientific fact that we are made up of earth borne compounds specifically carbon and water mixtures.

Man= I'm typing this aren't I?

Rib= Adam has a lot of them and wont miss one.

Women= what Adam wants and is wiling to give freely of himself to get it, literally.

Garden=Its just a location

Original Sin= what messed up the perfect world.

Think of this process as a modern scientist that has intimate knowledge of DNA structure and how to manipulate it.

If you want to make a copy of a subject to manipulate, you would take something from the host subject ( I think they still prefer bone marrow)that had enough info to succeed without permanently damaging the original subject. You would then make the new subject and manipulate it to your desired outcome.

 

[daisax]

Man chose to start playing with this thing called crude oil that came out of the ground and that no one in thier right mind would ingest, and now unless you grew it yourself the majority of the food you eat has either been wrapped, slaughtered, cooked, shipped, or spayed with some sort of crude oil item.(plastic and varnishes)

Technically speaking, people have been healthier and living longer since they started using plastic than before they did. I don't take that to mean that there's a causal relationship, though!

There's a funny look at all the poor design features of the universe and human beings in general here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_nqySMvkcw

 

[ford family]

all animals were vegitarian until the earth populace was to large for the plant life to sustain us.

You were almost credilble up to this point but you blew it big time. Gotta love the mental image of a sabre toothed tiger munching down on alfalfa and bean sprouts whilst wishing his grazing wasn't so hampered by having those huge canines.

ford family

 

[FinallyBoughtDVC]

Where does it say in the Bible that evolution does NOT exist?

I personally believe that God created the world and put his hand in it to start evolution as well.

Catholic dogma allows for the teaching of both. And fwiw, I do not believe that what you see in a human today is exactly what you saw at the beginning of the world. The world back then is not the world we know now.

IMO, to say that only one theory is possible is a bit too narrow minded for my tastes. For all I care, we could have the faith based creationism, mixed with the Big Bang and Evolutionism. All can easily work well together. Nothing has to be that literal and one sided.

Well, I know the Big Bang was responsible for something.

I believe in Evolution. One need only take a look at the relatives on my father's side and realize that we most certainly began from Neanderthals and monkeys...unless of course, god has a ginormous sense of humor (or mean streak - depending on how you look at it...)

 

[Bust*A*Stitch]

You were almost credible up to this point but you blew it big time. Gotta love the mental image of a sabre toothed tiger munching down on alfalfa and bean sprouts whilst wishing his grazing wasn't so hampered by having those huge canines.

ford family

Hey, thats just what the bible says, and I used it to try and prove a point.

Yes the invention of plastics has helped lengthing our lives, Its also allowed us in many ways to become so lazy that we ignore what we need to be doing and start causing life threatening health problems.

But.

The point is at least with toto they were pointing out all of these problems that are most likely caused by are own actions. And people that are in need love blaming God for the little stuff that is directly caused by our own actions.

Read the bible, when God destroys something, he DESTROYES IT to the point of almost nothingness, no trace left.

We are all going to die, deal with it, don't blame God for lung cancer, it was your choice to smoke. it was your choice to work in old buildings with asbestos, It was your choice to drink so much your liver failed, it was your choice to eat so much greasy food that your heart stopped permanently.

Oh my bad, its not you blaming God, YOUR DEAD. its all your family members that in the state of grief start blaming the easiest thing to blame. God he doesn't yell back.

Just because somebody said he created a perfect world, doesn't mean we didn't mess it up.

 

[Bust*A*Stitch]

Well, I know the Big Bang was responsible for something.

I believe in Evolution. One need only take a look at the relatives on my father's side and realize that we most certainly began from Neanderthals and monkeys...unless of course, god has a ginormous sense of humor (or mean streak - depending on how you look at it...)

You must know what my father in law looked like then.

And pretty sure he does have a sense of humor, he gave males nipples and created the platapus...=D

 

[Uuaww]

At my college, all biology majors have to take a class on Evolution when they are upper division, and an ecology and evolution as a lower division class. From my experience in those classes, there is evidence that evolution exists. What people need to realize is that evolution is a VERY slow process. If you want to take a simple example: Butterflies crossing a highway in Northern California. Years ago, the migration pattern/ a new highway being built disrupted the migration flight of a group of monarch butterflies. Many butterflies would just fly across and get it by windshields. A select few flew over the cars and survived. Over the years, fewer and fewer butterflies were hit by cars, and people could see more and more flying over them. Today, it is rare to hit a butterfly on said highway.

Evolution is progress. Now what this class has taught me is that evolution exists. It DOES NOT say that there is no God. I grew up going to catholic school and go to church, but I am a firm believer in evolution. Everything comes from something, nothing can just "appear". If you would like more examples or more information you can let me know; be forwarned, I am not an expert by any means, I only got a B in the class.

 

[Maybelle]

At my college, all biology majors have to take a class on Evolution when they are upper division, and an ecology and evolution as a lower division class. From my experience in those classes, there is evidence that evolution exists. What people need to realize is that evolution is a VERY slow process. If you want to take a simple example: Butterflies crossing a highway in Northern California. Years ago, the migration pattern/ a new highway being built disrupted the migration flight of a group of monarch butterflies. Many butterflies would just fly across and get it by windshields. A select few flew over the cars and survived. Over the years, fewer and fewer butterflies were hit by cars, and people could see more and more flying over them. Today, it is rare to hit a butterfly on said highway.

Evolution is progress. Now what this class has taught me is that evolution exists. It DOES NOT say that there is no God. I grew up going to catholic school and go to church, but I am a firm believer in evolution. Everything comes from something, nothing can just "appear". If you would like more examples or more information you can let me know; be forwarned, I am not an expert by any means, I only got a B in the class.

What you are speaking of here is "micro-evolution" or changes within species over time (adaptation). This is proven scientific fact, and can be readily seen, as in the example you stated. I believe the question is more one of a belief in "macro-evolution" or that one species is derived from another. Or maybe even if an intelligent designer could have played a part in the process.

I rarely get involved in these discussions, because one side rarely can sway the other to their way of thinking. This is simply because the way you view this topic is very often tied to your individual world view. I have met no self proclaimed athieists who claim belief in "Intelligent Design." Neither have I met any self-proclaimed "born again" believers who do not insist on some form of it. In my experience, and this is only my opinion, those who are undecided one way or another on whether God exists or not, and those who claim that he exists, but only in a nominal way, tend to believe in some form of species to species evolution. My feeling is that this is due to the way evolution is taught in all arenas of society as fact and not as theory.

In other words, when you start out with a world view that says there is/was a creator, you find facts to support that view, and vice versa, and have a tendency to overlook those accurate or even plausible arguments put forward by the opposite side.

For me, I always grew up believing evolution (species to species) as fact, because that is what I was taught both in school and what I took in from the world around me. I have studied science and taken evolution classes, but as I have gotten older I have also studied the bible and many other books on the subject, because I am not the type to take something at face value just because someone says so. To me, species to species evolution simply does not make sense. I could give lots of scientific reasons and go into lengthy explanations, but the point is that I have studied both sides at length. I get the sense (again only my opinion, no flames please) that those who believe in creation have often come to that conclusion in much the same way I have. I often wonder if those who so strongly (and often harshly) espouse evolutionary views have really taken the time to assess the inconsistencies in evolutionary theory, or given any serious consideration of the other side, rather than simply labeling creationists as "religious wackos." (my term, not quoted form anyone in this thread, but I know what many of you think of us ceationists )

My point is that while this issue can sometimes be fun to debate, it is so tightly tied to world view that good, educated, well intentioned people will continue to debate it until the end of time, or until Christ returns (as dependant on your world view, of course!), often allowing it to turn into a meanspirited fight because neither is willing to budge in their basic starting premise.

JMO

 

[Bust*A*Stitch]

If only I were so eloquent...=D

Thank you Maybelle.

Busta

 

[TwitterMouse]

I believe in evolution.
Anything past this that I type isn't coming out very nicely (I've got quite a grudge against any sort of religous ideas), so I'll stop here.