Every Wish That We Put Into Motion.... (comments welcome!)

[Herding_Cats]

Race Report:

North Mitten Half Marathon (and 10k and 5k): official time 2:49:41, 12:57 pace. New PR! WOO HOO!
We'll say the average temp was 63 (55 at the start and 69 when i finished) and the dewpoint was 39.5, for a total of 102.5.

I did 0 running in the 2 weeks leading up to the race due to my ankle, and I'm SO SO SO thankful that I had done that 11mi a couple of weeks ago so that I KNEW I could complete the whole race.

This was advertised as "a combination of paved roads, dirt roads and trails." What this was in REALITY was approximately: 5k of paved road, 5k of dirt roads (with a lot of "chatter bumps that were AWFUL to run on), and the rest of the course was mountain bike trail/cross country skiing trail, and 8in high grass with a single-track through old logging road. Basically NOT what I was prepared for at all with my treadmill and road running. I was expecting less "trail" and more road.

There were a couple of spots where the route needed some more markers, and apparently DH and BIL's "group" during the 10k missed a turn and ended up on the golf courses (where they were NOT supposed to be!) and ran an extra 0.37mi. I guess some people were VERY upset about that because they said the race director had clearly been crying when she talked to them about it after the race.....very apologetic, said they were going to figure out something to "make it right."

For the half, the mile markers and my garmin did NOT match up (my watch was usually somewhere in the .87-.93 of a mile when I would pass a marker. This could be because of how much we were "in the woods" running, but it's an observation nonetheless. And there were no mile markers after mile 11 (SIL said she saw the one for mile 12 laying down like it had maybe blown over), and because I was so far in the back, I was definitely wondering if I was still on the course for a little while. I was completely by myself for about 80% of the race.

I attempted to eat more carbs on Saturday, and it was a good thing that I had to drive all over the place on that day and stopped at home to make myself a sandwich, grabbed leftover macaroni and cheese and some veggies because the campground meals that day ended up being taco salad for lunch and nachos for dinner.....which definitely would NOT have been enough to get me through Sunday. Ate more when we got home for the night.

My "goal" for the race was 2:45, and 13min/mi pace just because of not having run in 2 weeks and the number of runs that baseball season ate. Had oatmeal for breakfast and a chocolate gu in the car, about 40min before the race started. I averaged around 12:21 through the first 5 miles. Mile 3 was my best mile at 11:54. And I switched from all running to intervals (2:15 and :30) at mile 4 to help break things up. I also started on my 2nd gu of the day at around this point because I was starting to not feel great and I figured the walk breaks would help buy me time for the gu to kick in. At mile 7 there was between .5 and .75 of a mile of basically sand to run in. Lots of walking happened. What's interesting is that according to my garmin, this was my 2nd fastest mile of the day at 12:05. Miles 8 and 9 I dropped to 13min/mi pace, and adjusted my interval app to 2:00 and :30 because I was getting really tired.

Things just kind of went downhill from there pace-wise. I turned off the interval timer some where between mile 11 and 12 because at that point my only focus was to finish, and I was walking a LOT. Mile 13 was 17:04. My feet were killing me starting at around mile 11. I wasn't sure if I was still on-course. Emotions were all over the place. It's uphill, through really thick grass to the finish. My body was D.O.N.E. My husband gave me a big hug after I crossed the finish line and my legs were ready to buckle....as long as I kept walking I was fine, but standing in one place was NOT going to work. I spent a lot of the afternoon in one of those reclining lawnchairs with my compression socks on, and got up to walk about once an hour. Today I'm a lot more just tired than sore.

I managed to drink ALL of the water in my vest during the race (about 1.5L) and STOPPED to drink gatorade at 3 stations. They only had water and gatorade AND gu/pretzels/m&ms at the LAST aid station (mile 10) which seems really odd to me. The other 3 were water/gatorade only, no "fuel" options. Maybe that's normal?

Anyhow, that's how it went. I'm super proud of myself for DOING THE THING. And since we did our 10k on Saturday, we also "earned" our fairytale challenge medals (so we also took pics with those.)

 

[Herding_Cats]

Aaaand pics from the race...

 

[DopeyBadger]

Way to go! Impressive to overcome all of those obstacles to cross that finish line!

 

[Herding_Cats]

Back to the hardcore "mulling" stage of the October race. Also consulting a few different race search sites to try to come up with mid-training program races that fit our schedule. SIL's last day of school is Friday, so I'm not going to "bug" her about her thoughts on upgrading to the full until next weekend. Price increase doesn't happen until June 30th, so we have a whole month to think about it. My finish time for the half was a LOT slower than I was hoping (but was to be expected with everything going on) and now makes me nervous about the 6 hour time limit for the full. But at the same time, I left a LOT of room for improvement and I could hopefully have a better level of fitness by October. And I'm looking forward to (at some point) running another half and beating my time.

SIL and I also (briefly) discussed how we both had mixed/uncertain feelings about essentially devoting our entire summer to training for a full......is that something we REALLY want to do? This was in the car RIGHT after the race, and we were both exhausted (she only finished 10min before me....I was expecting her to finish at LEAST 30min before me) and having all of the feelings.

I DO vividly remember thinking to myself as I crossed the finish line, "WHY did I want to do this? This is horrible!" So I can only imagine how I would feel after a full.

I guess I also have to consider the summer activities schedule as well. DS2 was invited to play in a summer basketball league on Monday nights (which is also DH's golf league night), DS3 has baseball on Tuesday (practice) and Wednesday(games) nights. And we were just asked to put a team into a Friday night baseball league that DS1 and 2 would play on. Along with all of DS1's summer basketball events. Most of this stuff wraps up by mid-July, but I don't want to end up neglecting my training at the beginning.

 

[DopeyBadger]

I guess I'd think about three questions/thoughts (many of which you're already pondering):

1) Do you really want to run a marathon, or would you be fine pushing off the marathon until another time? There isn't really a rush to do it if now is not a good time in your life personally.

2) Timing wise, it looks like you've got 17 weeks until race day. If you couldn't start training in earnest until mid-July (say 7/12/21), then that leaves 12 weeks for the real ramp up. Definitely not impossible that if you could get in a few hours of training per week and then ramp up for 12 weeks that you couldn't be prepared. But if you do close to zero training for the next 5 weeks, then it'll make those next 12 weeks near insurmountable.

3) It sounds like it's going to come down to whether you want this for yourself, and whether you've got the time to train for it. So I'd honestly ask yourself on a daily basis/days per week, how much time can you devote to running from now until mid-July? Can you do 20 min on three weekdays, and 30 min on each of the weekend days? Can you do 30-40-60-90-120 min instead? Like what's something that you think you could easily add to your already busy time commitments, but that wouldn't also add undue stress upon your life? And then after mid-July, what are those time limits you think you could do? And if you follow a traditional three week taper, then you're looking at peak weekends of 9/11-9/12, 8/28-8/29, and 8/14-8/15. How do those dates fall in your life?

If you decide you want this, but compare your availability to the Higdon plan you chose earlier (or a different plan altogether) and find it doesn't match up, then let me know. I can see if I can work the numbers in your favor to make it happen.

 

[Herding_Cats]

I guess I'd think about three questions/thoughts (many of which you're already pondering):

1) Do you really want to run a marathon, or would you be fine pushing off the marathon until another time? There isn't really a rush to do it if now is not a good time in your life personally.

Life will only get busier over the next few years. My oldest is well into the HS sports schedule (which means that baseball ended last week and summer basketball starts next week, and runs through July, and soccer starts in August) and the 2nd oldest is going out for cross county this next fall, so he will have a decent amount of summer running to do (which could mean a running partner for me, even though he's pretty fast and I am not.) My schedule will continue to pick up, and the only alleviation will be that my oldest will be able to drive at the end of the year and I won't have to run around picking him and his brother up from practices. If it doesn't happen in the next 18ish months, it's probably not going to happen for 5 years. And the baby is probably going to start losing tolerance for hour+ stroller runs within the next year or so...and get heavier to push.

2) Timing wise, it looks like you've got 17 weeks until race day. If you couldn't start training in earnest until mid-July (say 7/12/21), then that leaves 12 weeks for the real ramp up. Definitely not impossible that if you could get in a few hours of training per week and then ramp up for 12 weeks that you couldn't be prepared. But if you do close to zero training for the next 5 weeks, then it'll make those next 12 weeks near insurmountable.

I'm planning on doing some really light mileage next week, and figuring out what to do for training and start the week after that (6/14.) I am NOT planning on taking 5 weeks off. I can definitely get training done during the day once all of the kids are out of school, it's just a matter of fitting in everyone having a life during the summer (beach days, sand dune days, river days, etc) AND 2 baseball teams, summer Y-basketball, summer HS basketball, DH's golf league, etc.

3) It sounds like it's going to come down to whether you want this for yourself, and whether you've got the time to train for it. Like what's something that you think you could easily add to your already busy time commitments, but that wouldn't also add undue stress upon your life? And then after mid-July, what are those time limits you think you could do? And if you follow a traditional three week taper, then you're looking at peak weekends of 9/11-9/12, 8/28-8/29, and 8/14-8/15. How do those dates fall in your life?

Do I want it? Yes. Do I want it ENOUGH to make it happen? I don't know. Do I technically have the time to do the training? Yes. Will the reality of 4 kids interfere with the time to train? Also yes.

I can definitely say that for the 1/2 training plan, the 60-90 minute runs (and the short ones as well) were not really an issue, but the 2+ hour runs, especially if I didn't want to run them on the treadmill, were a lot more "work" to schedule and complete. I do NOT like how uneven the roads are around my house, so for the longer runs I will have to drive somewhere (and take 4 kids with me) to complete these.

Additionally, DH was grumbling about the fact that my long runs were always on the weekend because that cuts into the family time when he's not working (and him not working was why I had scheduled them for the weekend, so I didn't have to ask the kids continually to watch their sister while I ran.) So I will probably need to look into shifting those to Friday or Monday.


For the peak weeks....the August dates are before school starts, there will probably be a camping trip added in there somewhere, and a back-to-school shopping weekend. I am the "trip planner" in the family, so I would more than likely be able to control the dates of those trips to NOT mess those up. The September dates are the weekend of the first week of school. There will probably be sports stuff, but I would more than likely be able to work things in UNLESS it's the weekend that the basketball program is doing a golf outing fundraiser that DH volunteered to organize. He has no idea how much work that's actually going to be.

If you decide you want this, but compare your availability to the Higdon plan you chose earlier (or a different plan altogether) and find it doesn't match up, then let me know. I can see if I can work the numbers in your favor to make it happen.

I am absolutely going to take you up on this. The Hidgon plan seems to fit with my summer schedule pretty well at this point, but what I WILL need help with on that is how to break up the runs so I'm not doing what I did for the half training which was just running the miles....I know I need to get a LOT better at hills, my pacing is all over the place (this is probably an experience thing?) when I'm not on the treadmill although it tends toward slower which isn't a bad thing, and I likely need to do a HR test so I can see if I'm actually training too "fast" overall.


Here is all of my mental gymnastics/what-if thoughts for races this summer/winter:

In a perfect world with no MW happening:
nearby mid-summer race (B race)
full in October (A race)

In a perfect world where MW happens and DH gets on-board for me to go:
a nearby 1/2 or 10mi this summer for a POT (A race)
1/2 or full in October, depending on if I need a better POT (B/C race)
goofy or full on marathon weekend--goofy if I do the full in October, full if I do the 1/2 in October (HAHA!) (C races)

In a world where I have less time than I want to train:
a nearby mid-summer race (B race)
1/2 in October (A race)
A lot more cross training

Thank you for reading my novel of winding thoughts and indecisive ramblings. I still have no idea what I want to do.

 

[DopeyBadger]

I can definitely say that for the 1/2 training plan, the 60-90 minute runs (and the short ones as well) were not really an issue, but the 2+ hour runs, especially if I didn't want to run them on the treadmill, were a lot more "work" to schedule and complete. I do NOT like how uneven the roads are around my house, so for the longer runs I will have to drive somewhere (and take 4 kids with me) to complete these.

Additionally, DH was grumbling about the fact that my long runs were always on the weekend because that cuts into the family time when he's not working (and him not working was why I had scheduled them for the weekend, so I didn't have to ask the kids continually to watch their sister while I ran.) So I will probably need to look into shifting those to Friday or Monday.

I can definitely write something that accomplishes both of these things. I don't write many (almost none) marathon plans with more than 150 min in a single run. So you won't see many 120+ min runs on the schedule. Usually only 3-4 on the weekends written above (150 min, 140 min, 130 min, 120 min). If we can do enough running on the other days, then we can make it work.

Since the weekend is so desirable, then we can flex around the long run days to a non-traditional 14 day schedule. Something like:

M- 60 min max
T- 90 min max
W- OFF
R- 90 min max
F- 60 min max
Sa- OFF
Su- 60 min max

M- 90 min max
T- 60 min max
W- OFF
R- 90 min max
F- 150 min max
Sa- OFF
Su- OFF

Is that a doable schedule? If no, that's ok. What type of edits would you make from a time commitment standpoint?

I know I need to get a LOT better at hills, my pacing is all over the place (this is probably an experience thing?) when I'm not on the treadmill although it tends toward slower which isn't a bad thing, and I likely need to do a HR test so I can see if I'm actually training too "fast" overall.

You did a recent 5k in 32:35. So your fitness is at least there.



So I feel pretty confident that you're at least at this place for pacing under similar conditions. Your 5k predicts a 2:30 HM under similar conditions.

Pacing definitely comes with experience. Both in training and in racing. For most it takes years to gain that innate ability to hone in on pace. A run type that I use to help there are "blind" runs. Where after learning certain paces, you go out and tell yourself to run the same effort level as those other paces, but never look at the watch until the run is finished. With the expressed goal of having near even splits across the run. But it's a long process to learn paces. For me, I can pretty much know exactly how fast I'm going in any given training run without ever looking at the watch. Racing is different, but my blind pacing in training is dead on. But not everyone's the same in learning this skill and some take longer than others, and even some others never seem to be able to nail this down.

It is important to realize though when it comes to pacing that even splits does not mean 11:55 M Tempo pace on every mile from mile 1 to 8. Because if you have a mountain to climb on Mile 5, then I wouldn't expect 11:55 pace. That's where Grade Adjusted Pacing comes in. Additionally, if you did your 5k in perfect weather conditions, then a super blazing hot summer day isn't going to be the same pace either.

Hills can be a useful workout. My suggestion is to incorporate hills on pretty much every run you do. So rather than a singular focused workout, they're just something that's part of the normal routine. With that being said, there are some hill specific workouts when people find they need them. But learning to hold your effort (and not your pace) over hilly terrain is a useful skill (and that goes back to Grade Adjusted Pacing).

In a perfect world with no MW happening:
nearby mid-summer race (B race)
full in October (A race)

I'd say the odds are far greater that MW is happening, then it is not.

In a perfect world where MW happens and DH gets on-board for me to go:
a nearby 1/2 or 10mi this summer for a POT (A race)
1/2 or full in October, depending on if I need a better POT (B/C race)
goofy or full on marathon weekend--goofy if I do the full in October, full if I do the 1/2 in October (HAHA!) (C races)

In a world where I have less time than I want to train:
a nearby mid-summer race (B race)
1/2 in October (A race)
A lot more cross training

So based on the old POT standards, you're looking at a 2:22 HM or 1:46 10 miler. Based on the 5k, we've got you at a 2:30 and 1:52. So you've got some gains to be made from that 5k performance in order to hit those standards. About 5%, which is a good return on a well written training plan. So if that's the goal, I'd be extremely picky about the race I choose to aim towards. Something that is conducive to a fast performance. Flatish, minimal turns, no out-back, ideal historical weather, ample aid stations, reasonably close to home and doesn't require hotel stay.

In order to make the gains necessary, you'll have to be able to put in at least 5-6 hrs per week of training, be consistent with the training, and incorporate some speed work to try and push the envelope on your capabilities. It's doable if you want it, but by no means a guarantee.

The other consideration is training for MW. Whether you'll have the time and ability to train well into December for it.

 

[Herding_Cats]

I can definitely write something that accomplishes both of these things. I don't write many (almost none) marathon plans with more than 150 min in a single run. So you won't see many 120+ min runs on the schedule. Usually only 3-4 on the weekends written above (150 min, 140 min, 130 min, 120 min). If we can do enough running on the other days, then we can make it work.

Since the weekend is so desirable, then we can flex around the long run days to a non-traditional 14 day schedule. Something like:

M- 60 min max
T- 90 min max
W- OFF
R- 90 min max
F- 60 min max
Sa- OFF
Su- 60 min max

M- 90 min max
T- 60 min max
W- OFF
R- 90 min max
F- 150 min max
Sa- OFF
Su- OFF

Is that a doable schedule? If no, that's ok. What type of edits would you make from a time commitment standpoint?

That actually seems pretty reasonable to me. Just based off what I’ve been running time/distance-wise it looks like 25-30mi/week.

You did a recent 5k in 32:35. So your fitness is at least there.

View attachment 579268

So I feel pretty confident that you're at least at this place for pacing under similar conditions. Your 5k predicts a 2:30 HM under similar conditions.

To be fair, that was on the treadmill.

Hills can be a useful workout. My suggestion is to incorporate hills on pretty much every run you do. So rather than a singular focused workout, they're just something that's part of the normal routine. With that being said, there are some hill specific workouts when people find they need them. But learning to hold your effort (and not your pace) over hilly terrain is a useful skill (and that goes back to Grade Adjusted Pacing).

That might be interesting because the park I did several of my outdoor runs at is pretty flat. The path there is sort of a figure 8 that is “high” on both ends and drops down on the sides of the bottom 1/3 of the 8. But according to my garmin I only change elevation by about 60 feet. Probably not enough to be a “hill.” This may be worth a message to the cross country coach to ask about places to run...

So based on the old POT standards, you're looking at a 2:22 HM or 1:46 10 miler. Based on the 5k, we've got you at a 2:30 and 1:52. So you've got some gains to be made from that 5k performance in order to hit those standards. About 5%, which is a good return on a well written training plan. So if that's the goal, I'd be extremely picky about the race I choose to aim towards. Something that is conducive to a fast performance. Flatish, minimal turns, no out-back, ideal historical weather, ample aid stations, reasonably close to home and doesn't require hotel stay.

In order to make the gains necessary, you'll have to be able to put in at least 5-6 hrs per week of training, be consistent with the training, and incorporate some speed work to try and push the envelope on your capabilities. It's doable if you want it, but by no means a guarantee.

The other consideration is training for MW. Whether you'll have the time and ability to train well into December for it.

Yeah a corral placement might be a stretch. One I’m willing to at least attempt though, if I get the green light to spend all of the money on yet another trip to Disney

Looking at local-ish races, there are only 2 10-milers, and they don’t have great timing. Both are about 2 hours away. One is 9/19, so 13 days before my October race. And the other is 8/28.

There is a half on 8/8 about 30min from my house, an out and back on a converted/paved railroad bed. It crosses 11 roads, but I’m really familiar with that area and most of them are residential and see very little traffic. And it would be really easy for DH or my parents even to do “aid stations” so I could ditch my hydration vest. (It says there are aid stations but not how many or where they are located.) It gains just under 100ft of elevation in the “out” portion. The issue I see with this race is that it starts at 8am, and it’ll probably be HOT by the time I finish. These are bare-bones events and aren’t usually super crowded or busy from what I can tell.

As far as December running....winter here can arrive in the middle of November, but the last few years it’s still been brown outside until about Christmas.

 

[DopeyBadger]

That actually seems pretty reasonable to me. Just based off what I’ve been running time/distance-wise it looks like 25-30mi/week.

Yea, I'd agree. It would seem to peak around 30 miles. It might seem pretty minimal, but based on my experience with others, it's been enough.

To be fair, that was on the treadmill.

That's fair. The temps have gone up for the summer, but if you get a morning in the 50-60s it may not be a bad idea to see how fast you could do a 5k out on the roads on a "normal" route around your neighborhood.

But according to my garmin I only change elevation by about 60 feet.

Is that 60 feet per loop or per the entire run? What's it come out to on a per mile basis? My route is about 35 feet per mile on average for my 4.08 mile loop. I'd consider it enough given the hills I see here in WI races. A good thing would be to compare your average gain per mile of your training routes to the races you're considering.

Yeah a corral placement might be a stretch. One I’m willing to at least attempt though, if I get the green light to spend all of the money on yet another trip to Disney

Alright then, sounds like a plan.

Looking at local-ish races, there are only 2 10-milers, and they don’t have great timing. Both are about 2 hours away. One is 9/19, so 13 days before my October race. And the other is 8/28.

You'll get an advantage because it's a shorter distance (thus less endurance needed to be a good converter of short distance capabilities to long distance capabilities), but you gain nothing in terms of how runDisney converts your times for you towards the marathon. Whereas HM runDisney runners, see a significant boost in conversion when using a 10 miler to HM POT. So I'm not sure the 10 milers are worth it. That being said, if you do the 10/2 race as a HM, then having the 9/19 race as a 10 miler is not impossible to both off both. But if it were a marathon on 10/2, then I wouldn't race on 9/19.

There is a half on 8/8 about 30min from my house, an out and back on a converted/paved railroad bed. It crosses 11 roads, but I’m really familiar with that area and most of them are residential and see very little traffic. And it would be really easy for DH or my parents even to do “aid stations” so I could ditch my hydration vest. (It says there are aid stations but not how many or where they are located.) It gains just under 100ft of elevation in the “out” portion. The issue I see with this race is that it starts at 8am, and it’ll probably be HOT by the time I finish. These are bare-bones events and aren’t usually super crowded or busy from what I can tell.

Using Weather Underground, look at the historical weather for the last five years on that date and the times the race normally runs. What is the temp and dew point of each of the five years? Greater than T+D of 130 isn't great, 100-130 is manageable, and less than 100 is ideal.

 

[Herding_Cats]

Is that 60 feet per loop or per the entire run? What's it come out to on a per mile basis? My route is about 35 feet per mile on average for my 4.08 mile loop. I'd consider it enough given the hills I see here in WI races. A good thing would be to compare your average gain per mile of your training routes to the races you're considering.

I went back and double checked my garmin info, and it looks like it's *actually* about 23ft per mile. I have a screen shot on my phone that I'll come back and add when I'm not on the computer.

if you do the 10/2 race as a HM, then having the 9/19 race as a 10 miler is not impossible to both off both. But if it were a marathon on 10/2, then I wouldn't race on 9/19.

So I was misunderstanding the corral stuff and I thought it was possible to use a 10 miler as a POT for the MW full. Since it's not, I won't worry about running one.

Using Weather Underground, look at the historical weather for the last five years on that date and the times the 8/8 race normally runs. What is the temp and dew point of each of the five years? Greater than T+D of 130 isn't great, 100-130 is manageable, and less than 100 is ideal.

Using 9am as the reference point since the race starts at 8am....

2020: 68 + 60.73 = 128.73
2019: 71 + 58.93 = 129.93
2018: 67 + 59.46 = 126.46
2017: 64 + 54.25 = 118.25
2016: 64 + 53.54 = 117.54

in most cases the temperature is about 5 degrees cooler at 8am and about 8 degrees warmer by 11am, FWIW.

 

[DopeyBadger]

I went back and double checked my garmin info, and it looks like it's *actually* about 23ft per mile. I have a screen shot on my phone that I'll come back and add when I'm not on the computer.

23 ft/mile isn't nothing for sure. How does that compare to some of the races you're considering?

So I was misunderstanding the corral stuff and I thought it was possible to use a 10 miler as a POT for the MW full. Since it's not, I won't worry about running one.

You can use a 10 miler for a runDisney marathon/Goofy/Dopey POT submission. It's only that the data collected thus far has not shown that a 10 mile race POT is any more advantageous than a HM race POT for a Marathon when runDisney does the conversions. Such that the only advantage gained by you running a 10 miler as a POT is from it being a lesser distance needing less endurance to accomplish it. But the difference between a 10 miler and HM is minimal. So if it's a matter of a hot/hilly/far away 10 miler vs a cool/flat/close to home HM, then go with the HM.

Whereas a person running a runDisney HM who submits a 10 miler as a POT receives a significant advantage over someone who submits a 10k, 12k, or 15k for a runDisney HM POT. It has to do with the calculation of converting other race distances to the runDisney race distance. runDisney appears to use a calculation that is not standard across all the possible submittable distances.

Using 9am as the reference point since the race starts at 8am....

2020: 68 + 60.73 = 128.73
2019: 71 + 58.93 = 129.93
2018: 67 + 59.46 = 126.46
2017: 64 + 54.25 = 118.25
2016: 64 + 53.54 = 117.54

in most cases the temperature is about 5 degrees cooler at 8am and about 8 degrees warmer by 11am, FWIW.

It's not ideal, but it's not bad. It seems like a reasonable choice to me given the alternatives.

I'd say my mindset right now if I were in your shoes is:

8/8 HM for a shot at POT (2:22 or under)
10/2 HM for a shot at POT (2:22 or under)
Jan 2022 Marathon Weekend

That's probably how I would approach it.

 

[Herding_Cats]

I don't write many (almost none) marathon plans with more than 150 min in a single run. So you won't see many 120+ min runs on the schedule. Usually only 3-4 on the weekends written above (150 min, 140 min, 130 min, 120 min). If we can do enough running on the other days, then we can make it work.

Since the weekend is so desirable, then we can flex around the long run days to a non-traditional 14 day schedule. Something like:

M- 60 min max
T- 90 min max
W- OFF
R- 90 min max
F- 60 min max
Sa- OFF
Su- 60 min max

M- 90 min max
T- 60 min max
W- OFF
R- 90 min max
F- 150 min max
Sa- OFF
Su- OFF

Is that a doable schedule? If no, that's ok. What type of edits would you make from a time commitment standpoint?

I definitely need to get going on something so that my "rest weeks" don't turn into a rest MONTH.

Would this 2 week schedule just be on repeat, or was that just a sample of what 2 weeks of the schedule would look like? I sat down and kind of mapped out what i KNOW is going on this summer as far as BIG stuff goes (camping trips, back to school shopping trips) and races I'm considering (a July 5th 5K, the half in August, and whichever race I decide to do in October.) I will say that the Higdon plan fits what we already have going almost perfectly.....the weeks we are not at home are usually the "cutback" long runs, which would probably be the biggest issue for time-sucks-while-on-vacation.

I've been really thinking about MW stuff, and at this point, I don't think 2022 is going to happen for me from a budget/timing standpoint, although I'll probably change my mind about that if they announce something before July. So what I *THINK* I want to do is a slightly more aggressive half plan for August (shooting for a 2:22 finish.....which would potentially get me a POT and make me feel a lot better about not getting swept if I decide to go for the full in the fall), training with running the October FULL in mind, but not committing to the bib at this point....wait and see how the training actually goes with everything else that's going on this summer. If that sounds realistic.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Would this 2 week schedule just be on repeat, or was that just a sample of what 2 weeks of the schedule would look like? I sat down and kind of mapped out what i KNOW is going on this summer as far as BIG stuff goes (camping trips, back to school shopping trips) and races I'm considering (a July 5th 5K, the half in August, and whichever race I decide to do in October.) I will say that the Higdon plan fits what we already have going almost perfectly.....the weeks we are not at home are usually the "cutback" long runs, which would probably be the biggest issue for time-sucks-while-on-vacation.

I can work around everything. You just have to tell me when the camping trips, back to school shopping trips, etc. is. Then I can make sure that everything flows with that including any other races along the way.

The schedule is an outline, but not set in stone. So in order to avoid a trip, or whatever, then I adjust around it accordingly. That may mean repeating Week A twice in a row, or it may mean doing something completely different in order to work around a weekend adventure. Once I know the deets, then I write a first draft and you can let me know where the pitfalls are, and I can rewrite it again. And even then it's not set in stone, things come up, and then I rewrite the plan again to adjust for it.

So what I *THINK* I want to do is a slightly more aggressive half plan for August (shooting for a 2:22 finish.....which would potentially get me a POT and make me feel a lot better about not getting swept if I decide to go for the full in the fall), training with running the October FULL in mind, but not committing to the bib at this point....wait and see how the training actually goes with everything else that's going on this summer. If that sounds realistic.

It's realistic. Although the bulk of training for the 8/8 HM will be during the summer which always makes it challenging to be aggressive. And the timeframe between the HM and 10/2 date is such that we would train like you're running the M in October. Although given your paces, you're not going to see much of a difference between the volume of a HM plan and M plan from me. Given that your LR will cap out around 11.5-12 miles. The difference will be in the training pace focus, although after the 8/8 HM we can adjust if needed.

So all I need to know in order to write something is the dates of any trips or potential hiccups in the plan between now and 10/2. Then I can pre-plan around them. Additionally, during these dates/hiccups what would be a realistic limit on running (for example, no more than 30 min per day, or zero running per day, or 90 min per day). And those limits don't have to be the same for every trip. I guess I'd also need to know how many hours per week you ran for in each of the last six weeks (for example, 2 hours the week of 5/17, 4 hours the week of 5/24, etc.). This allows me to set a baseline for where the plan starts and sets the ramp rate towards the volume you can maximally accomplish by 10/2.

 

[DopeyBadger]

For example, without knowing the dates, the attached is an outline. The weeks with the double OFF on Sat/Sun would be your presumed peak weeks (150 min on Friday). So that would be the week of 9/6, 8/23, and 8/9. Although, I'd probably be wary of the 8/9 peak week coming off the HM on 8/8, but I'd wait to see how it plays out.

 

[Herding_Cats]

I was running somewhere between 150 and 180min per week before my ankle got screwy and made me nervous about being able to complete my race.

here's what I KNOW we are doing:

Camping June 17-20 (Thursday-Sunday.) Could do a 90min or less run on Friday or Saturday. Could do a 30min run on Thursday am, up to a 60min run on Sunday.

Race: July 4th 5k. It's local, would be for fun (assuming I can talk DH/kids and possibly the SIL/BIL into doing it with me.)

Camping: July 24 - August 1. (Saturday-Sunday) No running on the 24th or the 1st for sure. Would be good to keep most runs during this trip to 60min or less. Might be able to do one longer one depending on how hot is is, and how the baby sleeps (or doesn't sleep, based on our 2 trips this year.)

Race: August 8th Half. These races are super low-key, and it doesn't LOOK like they have heavy attendance/crowding.

Potential "shopping" weekend (ahh the joys of living in rural America with picky kids that are growing like....well, kids.)
August 21-22. Probably no running on either day since it'll be a combined total of around 8 hours in the car that weekend.

 

[DopeyBadger]

ok here's what I KNOW we are doing:

Camping June 17-20 (Thursday-Sunday.) Could do a 90min or less run on Friday or Saturday. Could do a 30min run on Thursday am, up to a 60min run on Sunday.

Race: July 4th 5k. It's local, would be for fun (assuming I can talk DH/kids and possibly the SIL/BIL into doing it with me.)

Camping: July 24 - August 1. (Saturday-Sunday) No running on the 24th or the 1st for sure. Would be good to keep most runs during this trip to 60min or less. Might be able to do one longer one depending on how hot is is, and how the baby sleeps (or doesn't sleep, based on our 2 trips this year.)

Race: August 8th Half. These races are super low-key, and it doesn't LOOK like they have heavy attendance/crowding.

Potential "shopping" weekend (ahh the joys of living in rural America with picky kids that are growing like....well, kids.)
August 21-22. Probably no running on either day since it'll be a combined total of around 8 hours in the car that weekend.

And how much running in terms of hours run per week have you done in each of the last six weeks?

 

[Herding_Cats]

With the ankle weirdness, I haven't run at all except for my race in 3.5 weeks.

The week of May 9 I ran about 2:40
The week of May2 I ran about 3:40
The week of April 25 I ran about 3:00

 

[DopeyBadger]

With the ankle weirdness, I haven't run at all except for my race in 3.5 weeks.

The week of May 9 I ran about 2:40
The week of May2 I ran about 3:40
The week of April 25 I ran about 3:00

And how did the ankle feel during the race and since?

 

[Herding_Cats]

and if those numbers make what i "want" to do not a great idea from a health/injury standpoint, i'm not super attached to my aspirations at this point. I'm very much in the curiosity/see what i can do phase of things right now. If i need to pump the breaks this year and build a better fitness base, then that's OK too.

the ankle wasn't really an issue during the race (until the end where EVERYTHING hurt and I was dying.) it gets tight when i've been sitting around, but i haven't had any "i pushed off throwing a baseball and then limped for the rest of the night" incidents.

My PT looked at it yesterday and said there's no tendonitis or anything, try these stretches and strengthening exercises.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Hi HerdingCats,

This is a first attempt. If you see something you don't like let me know. A training plan is only as good as how willing you are to do it. So if you don't like something, I want to change it because I want you to maximize getting better. Please let me know if I got your scheduling correct for the weekends both pre and post.

This is a normal length plan between now and the potential Marathon, so I anticipate we might make changes along the way. Paces up or down, switching up days and such. What we need to see is how your body reacts and adapts to the training as designed. So the more feedback you can give me the sooner we can pivot if necessary. We need to be very cognizant of any "feelings" that go awry because they could be early signs that something is amiss. Primarily, I try and stick to 25-30% or less for the longest run of the week as the % total of the weekly mileage.

Training Plan
Alright, here is my training plan for you. I am always open to changes as this is my first attempt. Please let me know if you feel it is too much or too little (either in pacing, time, mileage, days of the week, etc.) Now for my explanations.

My philosophy on developing a training plan is based on these principles:

1) Keep an 80% Easy / 20% Hard split.
2) Have the longest run in a week not exceed 35%.
3) Never exceed 2:30 hours in a training run.
4) Use Arthur Lydiard method of specialization.

So, some logistics.

How to read the schedule

The "Pacing Code" describes all of the different paces used for different types of runs. The dates are written with Monday-Sunday. The codes next to the listed days correlate with the pacing code. The prescribed training for the day appears underneath the "Sunday date". If it just says 4 mi, then do 4 miles at the prescribed pace. The easy/hard columns are the separation of types of workouts to help visualize the balance in the plan. The % easy/hard are represented near the end of the line.

The yellow boxes represent the total miles for the week. The red number represents the % of the longest run of the week relative to the total miles completed.

Red runs - These are blinded runs. You are to only use your watch/treadmill as a guide to new intervals or distance completed. However, you may not use the watch as a means to pace yourself. Your goal on these days is to try and match the effort needed to run this pace. These are important exercises to teach your body to become more in tune with your internal GPS. So during non-blind days always be cognizant of memorizing what the effort feels like. What does EA feel like? What does EB feel like? Over time you'll build a data bank of memories from which you can draw on for these blind running days. The end results of the blind runs are neither inherently good or bad but an assessment of your internal GPS. For a treadmill blind run, try covering the treadmill console with a towel and pushing up and down on the pace based on feeling (if possible). Ideally blind runs are done outside to get the "feeling" of effort. *None in this plan

Green runs - These are nutrition strategy runs. These are the only runs that you should take in any carb source. If the run is warm/hot you are allowed to take in (and suggested to do so) electrolytes. But keep the carbs to only the runs in green. Taking in any carbs when the training run is less than 90 minutes is a dampener of adaptations because it doesn't teach your body to run on fat. However, runs longer than 90 minutes require carbs because you start to increase necessary recovery time the more you starve the muscles.

The description is the key box telling you exactly what you should do on a given day.

Pacing

The pacing prescribed is solid. As an example, If I said to run 5 miles @ Long Run, then the goal is to run each individual mile at 13:00. If you were to start this workout and the 1st LR mile was completed in 14:00, the goal is to run the 2nd in 13:00. We don't want to sacrifice the 2nd mile to make the average 13:00 (i.e. don't run 12:00 to make up for the 14:00). I give myself windows based on the type of run:

M Tempo - +/- 10 sec
Daniels T - +/- 5 sec
Long Run - +/- 10 sec
Daniels R - +/- 1 second (so your 100m should be between 35.0-37.9 seconds)

Keep in mind though that these paces are based on your treadmill time trial. So when you encounter hills I expect the pace will be slower. Additionally, going downhill does not make up for the uphill portions. You will be slower on a hilly route than scheduled and that is ok. I want the effort of flat, uphill, downhill to be equal regardless of pace.

I also give myself a +30 second buffer on the first post-WU interval. I view each interval as a mini-goal. Can I run this mile in 10:53? Can I run this split in 11:55? If I'm too fast it's a failed goal. If I'm too slow I can live with it, but I missed the mark on the workout. Doing every workout at the prescribed paces maximizes the benefits received.

I try to hit 80% of intervals in a "hard" workout and 70% of intervals for the week. I stopped scoring easy intervals, because the easy days should be easy no matter what.

I tend to pay attention more to "lap pace" than "instantaneous pace". Because your pace smoothed out over 800m is more accurate than an immediate assessment on pace (instantaneous) which is based on satellites really really far away.

Something to keep in mind with the "easy" days. They should be EASY. They should almost never require that much effort. It is NOT a failure to run these 30-40-60 seconds slower if that feels right. Take easy days easy no matter the pace. Just don't let easy days get too fast because then they won't be easy anymore.

One thing to keep in mind as we move through changes in weather. These paces are scheduled based on your recent races (which may or may not be the same weather conditions as the upcoming training cycle). So use the following chart to give you an idea about pace adjustments necessary because of temperature changes.

http://maximumperformancerunning.blogspot.com/2013/07/temperature-dew-point.html




Why each workout

The Daniels T should be comfortably hard. They are not easy, but push you just enough to maximize benefits. Make sure to do these on as flat a stretch of road you can find. Elevation will make this more difficult than intended. These are also "hidden" HM Tempo workouts (2:22 pace). Your goal HM pace is around the same as your predicted fitness Daniels T pace. We'll find out based on these how realistic a 2:22 HM finish within this plan is. If the Daniels T pace is correct, then under a race setting you're expected to only maintain this pace for about 60 min.

Long Run teaches you to go the distance and what the end of the race should feel like.

M Tempo should help ingrain in your body what goal pace feels like.

Daniels R is a neurological pace. It helps increase efficiency in stride. Make sure to focus hard on form during these. Head up, good breathing, short/quick steps, etc. I don't trust GPS devices, so I recommend measuring this distance out using man made objects with google maps.

Strides are short bursts of speed that last no more than 10 seconds. They shouldn't be a sudden burst, but rather a controlled increase in speed (3 sec), maintain (4-5 sec), and then controlled decrease (3 sec). Do no less than 30 seconds (but certainly longer in-between is fine) of continuing the easy run until doing the next stride. You should feel fully recovered between strides before considering doing the next one. The strides should be saved until the last mile of the easy day, or after the easy day is over and post a short stretch (I prefer within my easy run). You should do about 4-5 strides in total.

Memorize the effort needed to complete each run. When weather dictates that the run needs to be slower, then continue to run at the effort equivalent to a different day that had good weather. This may mean that what was suppose to be 10:53 becomes 11:35. That's ok, because effort based running trumps paced based running. However, if you're feeling good and the weather is great doesn't give you the liberty to run faster. If prescribed 10:53, but equivalent effort feels like 9:30, run 10:53 and pull back.

As time progresses, we can re-evaluate your paces. But as we start out let's try these first. If you give the appropriate performance related indicators, then we'll make changes.

Important Techniques
One of the most important aspects of running long distance races is your running form.

Foot strike - The general recommendation is to have about 180 steps per minute or more. To have this many steps per minute, it forces you to take smaller, shorter strides and quicker foot movements. You can measure this with a phone app metronome or have someone watch you run and count. Many Garmins can measures this. Foot strike during the easy running (LR or EA) is still important for reducing injury risk by making sure it is light-footed. Don't force this too much. Gradually over time find your happy place for cadence with a nice quick stride. Having your foot fall underneath your torso is the most important part because overstriding tends to lead to injuries. So the 180# is more of a recommendation to try and move the feet quicker and more efficiently than the number itself.

Breathing - Ultra important during long distance racing. The body needs the maximum amount of oxygen you can deliver during long distance running. During all of your runs try to breath in a 1 in + 1 in + 2 out pattern (i.e. in on left foot, in on right foot, out on left/right foot). In addition, these breaths in should be from as deep in your lungs as you can. Relax your stomach and this will allow for deeper breathing. You can also try a 1 + 1 + 3 pattern if you find yourself with injuries developing only on one side of your body as this might be related to extra force during exhaling/inhaling. I highly recommend forcing this breathing technique on easy days so that it becomes natural.

Shoulders - Try this right now. Stand up with your feet shoulder width apart. Interlock your fingers in front of your body and turn your hands so that you see the top of your hands. Lock your elbows, and slowly swing your arms in front of you until they are now above your head. Memorize how your shoulders/chest feel. Now release your interlocked fingers, but try to not move your chest or shoulders. This is your proper upper body running form. It may seem awkward now, but over time it will feel normal.

Arms - Arms should stay tight to the body with your hands closed but relaxed.

Eyesight - Keep your eyes up. Your eyes should stay at eye level or higher. As your eyesight drops to look at your feet you reduce your lung capacity by as much as 30%. Since oxygen is so important to running, this decrease in oxygen can have a large effect on finishing time. I find this to be the biggest culprit when people say breathing is holding them back. Try to think of your jaw as jelly.

The warm-ups are key for anything faster than "long run" pace which includes HM Tempo, Daniels T, and Tempo. Essentially, there are two main pathways for the body to use oxygen to produce energy. The aerobic pathway is mostly used in slower running. The closer you get to the point where it becomes harder to breathe (Ventilatory Threshold) the more you use the anaerobic pathway. The aerobic pathway is more efficient and faster at creating energy, whereas the body uses anaerobic when the aerobic can't keep up (because you're going too fast).

The most interesting part between the aerobic and anaerobic pathway is that even though the aerobic is used mostly during slow running it takes about 6 minutes of running before it can be used. This means for the first 6 minutes we're stuck with the slow, inefficient anaerobic pathway. So if you don't do a warm-up, and you're running faster than "long run" pace you push the anaerobic pathway too hard. This creates a deficit in energy within the first 6 minutes that becomes harder to overcome. As this deficit starts to catch up with you in later miles, it causes our running form to suffer. When we get closer to your first race we'll talk about a detailed warm-up routine done prior to the race which is extra important in races.

So for you, the EA, EB, and Long Run paces can all be started without doing any type of slow jog warm-up. I do dynamic stretching before all of my workouts and static stretching after my workouts. However, I don't like to make recommendations on stretching because the research I have read is that you're more likely to get hurt changing your stretching routine than if you did nothing/stayed the same.

Fueling

Just ask questions if you've got them. The key to remember is 2g carbs needs 1 oz water to absorb.

Diet

Just ask questions if you've got them.

What can I expect?

A training plan is a fluid process. The more you keep me in the loop the more I can help you. The gains you make will be dependent on how well you can stick to the plan. Making adjustments is not a bad thing. If we have to shift the paces up/down, or the duration up/down it's not a sign of failure. It's a sign that we missed the mark on the plan. The number one thing to watch in your training is you should always feel like at the end of every workout you could have done "one more". That's one more mile or one more interval. This plan should not push you so hard you can't finish a day's workout, or start to see a "fade" at the end of a workout. If you see this let me know. We can always make changes.

Alright, that's all I can think of at the moment. Let me know what you think about the training plan and my ideas.

Billy