Covid And The Rest of Us

[bavaria]

More positive news out of Germany... Drosten is the top virologist who co-discovered SARS, created the first COVID PCR tests in January of this year, has a podcast with more than a million listeners, and is Mrs Merkel's closest advisor on the COVID crisis. He had a bit of a fit in May because they disagreed about opening Germany, so he went back to his lab at the Charité and hasn't really emerged until today. Turns out he only took a two week holiday, and has been very busy indeed....

"After five days the infectivity is actually over"

According to the virologist, the quarantine period should be reduced from 14 to 5 days. With this proposal, he went "to the pain limit of epidemiology," said Drosten. "That is, let's say, a steep thesis that one says that after five days the infectivity is actually over." But the consideration is: "What can you do in reality so that you don't have a de facto lockdown?", He explained. "It is of no use if you have all kinds of school classes and all kinds of workplaces under quarantine for weeks." Drosten also suggested that the five days should not be "wasted" on tests, but rather only after the end of the test to test whether those affected were infected and were still infectious.

The cases of secondary infections
"This is all just attention-grabbing," said Drosten about a study carried out with extensive public relations work in Hong Kong on the world's first proven re-infection with the corona virus . Such cases are "rarities". "At the moment it is difficult to say how many patients this will affect," said Drosten about the re-infection. Epidemiologically, however, it will probably not be of any consequence for the spread of the virus. "That does not describe the medical reality and the normal case." The case does not mean that a vaccination will not work.

https://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft...avirus-a-8e4bbfcb-9176-41ba-80df-3fedd31f2e94
And for our Canadian posters, Mr Trudeau was not far off the mark with his 'speaking moistly' as the English translation from Drosten comes as "the wet pronunciation"

 

[TLSnell1981]

Okay.
But, where in my post shows that I was criticizing someone who was wanting to get that first dose?

I worked in various parts of the biotech industry, and so I’m well familiar with the rigor of the FDA approval process. Skipping a step without the full information for something that is not life threatening can be dangerous. As you say, this is my opinion. So, obviously, you are free to decide what you want to do.

Didn’t the FDA also give EUA to HCQ?

Not necessarily some will be required to receive the vax fairly soon after it's released.

 

[ronandannette]

...And for our Canadian posters, Mr Trudeau was not far off the mark with his 'speaking moistly' as the English translation from Drosten comes as "the wet pronunciation"

Yeah, great thing to be right about. I only wish our feds had been that "close to the mark" with the decision to partner with China's CanSino on vaccine development. Now being denied access to both the product and the research we paid to develop, this week it was announced that we've inked deals to purchase vaccine from Pfizer, Moderna, Novavax and Johnson & Johnson. We won't get in on the testing phases though, nor will the Health Canada approvals be based on our own primary research.

 

[lisaviolet]

I've followed this thread since it was started but have stayed quiet.

I personally feel there is not enough latitude - or maybe compassion - for the choices of our world leaders. The virus was novel and no one had any clue about so many factors early on. So to err on the side of extreme caution was completely valid in my eyes. No win situation for all of them.

I feel that my province - and premier (who I had numerous choice words for pre-Covid ) - has done an excellent job of balancing safety and life must go on.

I am no conspiracy theorist, but I do suspect that they have a handle on some aspects of the virus that they are not sharing with the general public. And quite possibly for good reasons. I suspect that they have data on time period needed for transmission. I garnered that it literally could be seconds early on in the shutdown. A la just passing someone who emits particles. That's the way our scientists portrayed it. But living downtown and in a condo I no longer believe that. Plus I have the Covid app and certain decisions surrounding it make me wonder. But it does not bother me. I am not a person who believes that the government should have complete transparency.

I have also listened to many voices and changed some of my own hard lines surrounding choices we all make. I go to the Toronto Islands regularly. And we have a nude beach there that has often been a ****show since the pandemic. Not for nudity. For huge crowds at that specific part and a lack of social distancing. I used to get frustrated, mainly selfishly feeling they are all going to get us shut down - no more island fun. And worried about their older loved ones. But I have listened. Hearing other voices about the data on the lack of outside transmission plus the need to unwind, have some freedom and some fun. Do I wish they would be better at social distancing? Yes. Do I worry that they will take their ways indoors soon? Yes. But we can't take everything away. Mental health is an important piece. And the city is working hard at lowering the crowds there. They have a limited ferry service for that part of the island. So that the party goers have to walk or ride a long way off hours.

And I must say many are still dedicated with their loads of party gear.

 

[ronandannette]

I've followed this thread since it was started but have stayed quiet.

I personally feel there is not enough latitude - or maybe compassion - for the choices of our world leaders. The virus was novel and no one had any clue about so many factors early on. So to err on the side of extreme caution was completely valid in my eyes. No win situation for all of them.

I feel that my province - and premier (who I had numerous choice words for pre-Covid ) - has done an excellent job of balancing safety and life must go on.

I am no conspiracy theorist, but I do suspect that they have a handle on some aspects of the virus that they are not sharing with the general public. And quite possibly for good reasons. I suspect that they have data on time period needed for transmission. I garnered that it literally could be seconds early on in the shutdown. A la just passing someone who emits particles. That's the way our scientists portrayed it. But living downtown and in a condo I no longer believe that. Plus I have the Covid app and certain decisions surrounding it make me wonder. But it does not bother me. I am not a person who believes that the government should have complete transparency.

I have also listened to many voices and changed some of my own hard lines surrounding choices we all make. I go to the Toronto Islands regularly. And we have a nude beach there that has often been a ****show since the pandemic. Not for nudity. For huge crowds at that specific part and a lack of social distancing. I used to get frustrated, mainly selfishly feeling they are all going to get us shut down - no more island fun. And worried about their older loved ones. But I have listened. Hearing other voices about the data on the lack of outside transmission plus the need to unwind, have some freedom and some fun. Do I wish they would be better at social distancing? Yes. Do I worry that they will take their ways indoors soon? Yes. But we can't take everything away. Mental health is an important piece. And the city is working hard at lowering the crowds there. They have a limited ferry service for that part of the island. So that the party goers have to walk or ride a long way off hours.

And I must say many are still dedicated with their loads of party gear.

Hi Lisa - interesting to hear your take. Wow, has Doug Ford ever re-invented himself with his performance over the past 5 months.

I agree very much with your assessment of how governments world-wide (and at every level) have handled the disclosure of information. Like you, I am not an extremist, alarmist or conspiracy theorist, nor do I believe all governments are inherently nefarious - even those who defy my personal ideology. Unlike you though, it does deeply rankle that we are now able to "connect some dots" that make the official positions seem obviously less than frank. I have a great respect for authority and would prefer any day to be constrained by regulation straight-up rather than be manipulated. Increasingly by the day I think the lack of nuance and detail provided in the statistics is purposed to keep everyone at a higher level of alert than necessary - in order to drive compliance.

I'm headed to your neck of the woods in a few weeks. We've decided to spend our 25th Anniversary in Niagara Falls and Ottawa via Toronto. I can promise you, cross-my-heart, I will not contribute to your problematic nude beach situation.

 

[bavaria]

We don't need a beach - a park is just fine for public nudity And yes, the 'mayor's brother' I think has really risen to the occasion. (And probably more of us now know him not as 'they mayor's brother')

It's funny that the American politics means questioning actions is often being branded as ultra right-wing, regardless of where one is located. I'm one who questions, and reads, and pushes for action, but I am a very, very dark shade of pink left.

I do however have empathy for leaders. I said a few months ago that leaders of closed countries would really have a struggle to open the borders (not to the US, but to 'safe' countries) if the population was still fearful of the virus. It's a huge leap of faith to open things, because one is ultimately held responsible for deaths. That is why I said many pages back that philosophy courses are an important part of any political science or international relations degree. The leaders have a very difficult task, and with no clear path ahead they are having to take risks (or not take risks) and in either case deal with the outcomes.

I'm just glad that the risks of opening borders hasn't had a really bad outcome at this point.

 

[lisaviolet]

Increasingly by the day I think the lack of nuance and detail provided in the statistics is purposed to keep everyone at a higher level of alert than necessary - in order to drive compliance.

Once again weirdly I agree with you. Insert wink. We are on the exact same track. Twice in one year!

But I believe we can't be trusted with some information Annette. Sadly I feel that. You have more faith in us. For instance if we knew that it takes a good half an hour, not saying this is true - simply an example, to transmit the virus well many would be doing the "I was only twenty-five minutes" (when they were probably forty!).

I myself am high-risk and unfortunately a stringent rule follower, and I am not sure I wouldn't be pushing the limit if I had more clear data.

I am already carrying beer on my bike and assuming it can be opened in a park, beside a downtown police station. You know - being outside for the greater good.
(One of my friends texted me an article that Ford himself thinks I haven't lost all my morals! )

---------

Have a wonderful time Annette. You might be a tad chilly at that beach anyway.

 

[ronandannette]

Once again weirdly I agree with you. Insert wink. We are on the exact same track. Twice in one year!

But I believe we can't be trusted with some information Annette. Sadly I feel that. You have more faith in us. For instance if we knew that it takes a good half an hour, not saying this is true - simply an example, to transmit the virus well many would be doing the "I was only twenty-five minutes" (when they were probably forty!).

I myself am high-risk and unfortunately a stringent rule follower, and I am not sure I wouldn't be pushing the limit if I had more clear data.

I am already carrying beer on my bike and assuming it can be opened in a park, beside a downtown police station. You know - being outside for the greater good.
(One of my friends texted me an article that Ford himself thinks I haven't lost all my morals! )

---------

Have a wonderful time Annette. You might be a tad chilly at that beach anyway.

Those are $1 beers, I presume? As for being cold in Ontario, what's your weather like? Here in the shadow of the Rockies we're already getting a touch of frost at night, which is typical for this time of year. Winter, as they say, is coming.

 

[Karin1984]

In the category: A government is run by humans. Humans who make mistakes.

The Dutch minister of Justice, the one who is in charge of the officers who can fine people for not obeying the rules, decided to get married.
While not obeying the rules for keeping distance.... Several pictures were retrieved where they do not social distance. First it was just the official wedding pictures, now also some regular pictures of the event where the minister isn't exactly distancing. The second set of pictures show that it wasn't an accident for the official wedding pictures.
Initially he apologized, and thought that was it. Only then the officers working for him don't hand out as many fines since the news broke. They say they cannot explain it to the people who are fined.

This afternoon there is a debate about his positio. He will really have to fight for his position, and I wouldn't surprised if he has to go.
Before the minister had been quite vocal about the people who not obeyed to the measures, with colorful choice of words.

 

[penn19]

In the category: A government is run by humans. Humans who make mistakes.

The Dutch minister of Justice, the one who is in charge of the officers who can fine people for not obeying the rules, decided to get married.
While not obeying the rules for keeping distance.... Several pictures were retrieved where they do not social distance. First it was just the official wedding pictures, now also some regular pictures of the event where the minister isn't exactly distancing. The second set of pictures show that it wasn't an accident for the official wedding pictures.
Initially he apologized, and thought that was it. Only then the officers working for him don't hand out as many fines since the news broke. They say they cannot explain it to the people who are fined.

This afternoon there is a debate about his positio. He will really have to fight for his position, and I wouldn't surprised if he has to go.
Before the minister had been quite vocal about the people who not obeyed to the measures, with colorful choice of words.

We have that here. A Mayor of a major city eating indoors at a restaurant in another state, where its legal to do so but in his own city it’s not. The optics just look bad. And another major political figure getting her hair done indoors, no mask, where it’s not legal to do so. For me, but not for thee....

 

[mousefan73]

More positive news out of Germany... Drosten is the top virologist who co-discovered SARS, created the first COVID PCR tests in January of this year, has a podcast with more than a million listeners, and is Mrs Merkel's closest advisor on the COVID crisis. He had a bit of a fit in May because they disagreed about opening Germany, so he went back to his lab at the Charité and hasn't really emerged until today. Turns out he only took a two week holiday, and has been very busy indeed....



https://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft...avirus-a-8e4bbfcb-9176-41ba-80df-3fedd31f2e94
And for our Canadian posters, Mr Trudeau was not far off the mark with his 'speaking moistly' as the English translation from Drosten comes as "the wet pronunciation"

I read that too and hope for Lufthansa's sake the government goes off facts and not fears.

 

[ronandannette]

...This afternoon there is a debate about his positio. He will really have to fight for his position, and I wouldn't surprised if he has to go.
Before the minister had been quite vocal about the people who not obeyed to the measures, with colorful choice of words.

Neat! I’m not sure how your government works or if it’s just a little thing called personal integrity that will compel him to resign, but I wish it was that easy to be rid of a politician in this country. For generations we have had leaders of every stripe and at the highest levels perpetrate ethics violations and acts of outright corruption far more egregious than your example. Even when found guilty through the established channels of Commons investigation or the occasional RCMP probe, there are rarely any consequences. Oh wait...sometimes they say they are sorry...

 

[Karin1984]

Neat! I’m not sure how your government works or if it’s just a little thing called personal integrity that will compel him to resign, but I wish it was that easy to be rid of a politician in this country. For generations we have had leaders leaders at the highest levels perpetrate ethics violations and acts of outright corruption far more egregious than your example. Even when found guilty through the established channels of Commons investigation or the occasional RCMP probe, there are rarely any consequences. Oh wait...sometimes they say they are sorry...

Last few years it happened more often, when something like this happens the politician gets a debate and has to defend himself. You need a strong personality, will and people to support you to survive. Some do, some don't. Saying sorry or admitting you were wrong is not a big thing here, if you don't your chances of staying get smaller.

Furthermore, it really depends on the issue. I am convinced that Clinton-Lewinsky would never had happened here. Yes, embarrassing, but in the end a case between man and wife. In the current case, if it had been any other minister, it wouldn't have been an issue. Even our king made a mistake during his holiday in Greece.
But as the minister is the one in charge... that changes everything. Also because he was really vocal in March & July on press conference about people not obeying. There wasn't much understanding.
So those are two big things that are not in his favour.

What also didn't help was that the story went from bad to worse.
- Minister gets married, a photographer makes pictures and sells it to a tabloid. They publish the nice pictures and write a nice story about the groom and that the last few months when he visited his children, it was outside in the garden and with 1.5m distance. And that it was no different at the wedding. So all looks good.
- A few days later there is a tv show showing pictures, made by the same photographer, which show a slightly different story.
- The next day, the minister tweets that he is sorry, mistakes were made, and in his position he should have behaved better.
- 2 days later the prime minister says that it happened, but it's done. The minister and his wife both will donate the fine they ought to have gotten to the Red Cross.
Only then more reactions come from the opposition who do not agree with that just saying sorry is enough. But also a column writer in a national newspaper writes about it and the double standard, and the wedding industry also reacts saying that it's undoable in social situations to keep 1.5m distance. More and more people have an opinion about it.
- 2 days later we get the announcement that officers fine less people because they cannot explain it. The minister announces he wants to talk to the officers.
- Yesterday they announce today's debate.
And later a newspaper announces that 2 of the minister's children had covid.
And in the tv show from earlier has another item in their show about the wedding, with new pictures where it's clear the minister wasn't behaving as he should.

 

[lisaviolet]

Those are $1 beers, I presume? As for being cold in Ontario, what's your weather like? Here in the shadow of the Rockies we're already getting a touch of frost at night, which is typical for this time of year. Winter, as they say, is coming.

Frost? I just can't.

We have had the most incredible summer. Most days 80s and sun. Still warm here but some cooler forecasts on the way. But by cooler I mean low seventies, laughing.

 

[lisaviolet]

The leaders have a very difficult task, and with no clear path ahead they are having to take risks (or not take risks) and in either case deal with the outcomes.
I'm just glad that the risks of opening borders hasn't had a really bad outcome at this point.

Absolutely.

Here I have been very impressed with the single focus - for the most part - of the parties within this pandemic. Of course the claws will appear soon but regardless it has been impressive.

Good news on the latter. Progress.

We are in a difficult situation with the States. No easy answers.

And yes, the 'mayor's brother' I think has really risen to the occasion. (And probably more of us now know him not as 'they mayor's brother')

A UK psychic, who apparently has no clue who Doug Ford is, said before our last election that Ford will be Prime Minister but not until the next election.

I thought he was bonkers. Well besides it being a psychic thought. One he is a premier, two his French, and three the country has a brand new federal leader of Ford's party. And at the time of the proclamation Ford was hated by many.

But the man has risen to the occasion. Strange times.

 

[lisaviolet]

Well this is interesting news for the day. Will have to read up on it later. But it seems like a positive choice in mitigating the virus.

As long as people are educated on the importance of timing with testing.

 

[bavaria]

Good news on the latter. Progress.

We are in a difficult situation with the States. No easy answers.

Germany had said that it will open to Japan, and to China (who would have thought that a few months ago!) if they open reciprocally. That is of course driven by business, but I do think it makes sense for 'safe' countries and of course business has to resume.

Japan now has five 'safe' countries in its bubble, albeit not that big of a market.

I think that the challenge we all face with the US (and Canada way more than most) is that any move is seen with emotion, rather than logic. If decisions to open to a country are based on numbers, then of course the US right now should remain isolated. But as we know, when emotion drives instead of logic, then the challenge becomes even greater on how to deal with them... (And I still hope as ever that they get healthy soon, because they are one of the big reasons that the world cannot progress economically)

 

[bavaria]

View attachment 523304

Well this is interesting news for the day. Will have to read up on it later. But it seems like a positive choice in mitigating the virus.

As long as people are educated on the importance of timing with testing.

I read a few weeks ago that in a short time anyone can pick up a testing kit from Edeka (supermarket) or Amazon....

And sorry, more on the good news front, from a previously rather conservative health minister:

Spahn goes "really confident in autumn and winter"

The German economy seems to be gradually recovering from the consequences of the corona crisis and the lockdown at the beginning of the pandemic. Health Minister Jens Spahn has now made it clear that there should not be a second lockdown.

"We know how to protect ourselves", says Health Minister Jens Spahn and sees himself confirmed in the current RKI figures. The situation will also be under control in the coming months - on one condition.


Together out of the corona crisis: Federal Health Minister Jens Spahn is optimistic for the next few months. "We have really achieved quite a lot so far," said the CDU politician on Wednesday in Berlin.
“The numbers are low, the health care system can handle them well, and we know how to protect ourselves.” We have learned a lot in the past few months: “And with that we can go really confidently into autumn and winter.” Even with higher numbers of infections, you will react regionally and locally.
We will certainly not do it again across the board as in March. "In certain areas, such as in retail, things are under control," said Spahn, who admitted in Bochum on Tuesday that some measures from March and April were disproportionate. In particular, Spahn had mentioned the closure of hairdressers and the retail trade and refrained from any new contact bans in old people's and care facilities. The situation there is also under control.

The balance between security and everyday life is becoming increasingly better. "I am very sure that in three or six months we will be even better than today."

Spahn said that despite the corona demonstrations in recent days, he had the impression that the vast majority of people were behind the course of the federal government. The distance and hygiene rules are the decisive instrument in the fight against the virus and are largely accepted. Spahn said he had no answer to the situation that triggered such hatred and frustration over the past few months.

 

[Karin1984]

The debate about our minister of Justice is still ongoing (for 2.5 hours now), everyone agrees he was stupid, but his resignation isn't really on the table. The opposition isn't really pushing for it. It's more about the fines and that it gets on your criminal record.

In other news:
- NL's R number is under 1 again! Woohoo!
We are at 0.99

Oh, and Silvio Berlusconi (former prime minister of Italy) also has covid.

 

[ronandannette]

Absolutely.

Here I have been very impressed with the single focus - for the most part - of the parties within this pandemic. Of course the claws will appear soon but regardless it has been impressive.

Good news on the latter. Progress.

We are in a difficult situation with the States. No easy answers.

A UK psychic, who apparently has no clue who Doug Ford is, said before our last election that Ford will be Prime Minister but not until the next election.

I thought he was bonkers. Well besides it being a psychic thought. One he is a premier, two his French, and three the country has a brand new federal leader of Ford's party. And at the time of the proclamation Ford was hated by many.

But the man has risen to the occasion. Strange times.

Wow, just imagine all the crazy circumstances that would have to come together for that to happen. I wonder if he's secretly planning to run for leadership of the Green Party?

Regarding the idea of the parties making political hay out of Covid, well, I'm not sure what traction there is to gain. As you rightly mentioned, there's been very little ******* amongst them on the general gist of the federal Covid response. It is inevitable though that "discussions will be had" eventually on the state of the national economy and financing all our relief measures.

Germany had said that it will open to Japan, and to China (who would have thought that a few months ago!) if they open reciprocally. That is of course driven by business, but I do think it makes sense for 'safe' countries and of course business has to resume.

Japan now has five 'safe' countries in its bubble, albeit not that big of a market.

I think that the challenge we all face with the US (and Canada way more than most) is that any move is seen with emotion, rather than logic. If decisions to open to a country are based on numbers, then of course the US right now should remain isolated. But as we know, when emotion drives instead of logic, then the challenge becomes even greater on how to deal with them... (And I still hope as ever that they get healthy soon, because they are one of the big reasons that the world cannot progress economically)

Safe country to safe country (whatever that even means) perhaps, but as I've said before, I hate the idea of borders being opened or closed based on diplomacy and/or foreign policy. The ONLY thing that should matter is the science, regardless of what countries are involved.