Could 60 Minutes documents on Bush be faked?

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If what is purported never happened, the president would know they were fake immediately would he not?
You're confusing "fake" with factual. I could write a memo about Kerry being the love child of space aliens It would be a genuine document, but that doesn't mean the contents are true. The WH wasn't in a position at the time of knowing for sure whether or not Killian penned such a memo. That doesn't mean they've accepted the contents as factual. The WH has maintained from the beginning of all this that Bush fulfilled the requirements of his service in the eyes of the military and was honorably discharged.
 
Wow, the bad news just keeps pouring in for W! The AP has poured over Bush's flight logs and discovered this: "The records also show Bush required two passes to land an F-102A fighter on March 12 and April 10, 1972. " Recent polling clearly showed that a candidate's ability to land a jet cleanly on the first attempt 32 years ago was a burning issue with the electorate!
 
Originally posted by Geoff_M
Wow, the bad news just keeps pouring in for W! The AP has poured over Bush's flight logs and discovered this: "The records also show Bush required two passes to land an F-102A fighter on March 12 and April 10, 1972. " Recent polling clearly showed that a candidate's ability to land a jet cleanly on the first attempt 32 years ago was a burning issue with the electorate!

Maybe he was just getting back from the bar.
 
This morning's Globe.
The print edition, page A1:

Kerry team, DNC hit Bush on Guard issue

NEW ORLEANS - The Kerry campaign and leading Democrats yesterday launched a new line of attack aimed at President Bush's character, using military veterans and political allies to accuse him of skirting his National Guard service requirements during the Vietnam War and charge that such behavior foreshadowed Bush's "dishonesty" in justifying the invasion of Iraq.

Advisers to Democratic nominee John F. Kerry said they helped craft the battle plan with the Democratic National Committee, but were leaving it to the DNC to execute to keep Kerry publicly above the fray and focused on criticizing the incumbent's leadership - as he did in a speech in New Orleans yesterday where he compared Bush's policies to racist "Jim Crow" laws.


Current online version:

NEW ORLEANS -- Democrats launched a new round of criticism yesterday aimed at President Bush's character, accusing the incumbent of skirting his National Guard service requirements during the Vietnam War and charging that such behavior was similar to Bush's ''dishonesty" in justifying the invasion of Iraq.

Campaign advisers to Democratic presidential contender John F. Kerry said he will remain publicly above the fray, sticking to criticism of Bush's leadership -- as he did in a speech in New Orleans yesterday in which he compared Bush's policies to racist ''Jim Crow" laws.

The Democratic National Committee and military veterans will take the lead in questioning the president's Guard service in the late 1960s and early '70s, Kerry's aides added.
 

My father was an active duty Air Force pilot who flew F86's in the 50's. He says there were a number of times he, and everybody he flew with, required multiple passes for a number of maneuvers, including landing, and it didn't disqualify them from flying.
 
The funny thing is, I don't care whether they're faked our genuine.
 
This morning's Globe.
The print edition, page A1:
Teejay32,

Darn... So much for Bush's chances in Mass.!
 
The language in the memo bothers me to a certain degree. "Sugar coat?".

Other than that...I went back and looked at my ROTC documents (from the mid 70's). I know the office at the college had selectrics and the fonts on my copies on my contract appear to be proportional to me. The letter of acceptance from the commandant is non-proportional.

Also...having worked in an insurance company in the early 80's we had old selectrics for our use. On some of them you could make the superscripted th but it is unlikely someone would bother to do it as a matter of course. A secretary might but most of us clerks wouldn't have...unless the document was going to the state or legal or something (oh and we had some really old typewritten original contracts with superscripting...these would have been done on manual machines).

Now...how about this...since I don't think of either campaign as being as pure as the driven snow...the release of disinformation is a rather common practice around the world. The SOURCE of the documents is just as interesting as whether or not they were forged. Who gains from discrediting 60 minutes?
 
Latest story on this from CBS.com

Bush Guard Memos Questioned
NEW YORK, Sept. 10, 2004


Questions are being raised about the authenticity of newly unearthed memos that say President Bush's National Guard commander believed Mr. Bush was shirking his duties.

The memos, which were obtained by CBS News' 60 Minutes, say Mr. Bush ignored a direct order from a superior officer and lost his status as a Guard pilot because he failed to meet military performance standards and undergo a required physical exam.

The network defended the autheniticity of the memos, saying its experts who examined the memos concluded they were authentic documents produced by Lt. Col. Jerry Killian.

But Killian's son, one of Killian's fellow officers and an independent document examiner questioned the memos.

Gary Killian, who served in the Guard with his father and retired as a captain in 1991, said he doubted his father would have written an unsigned memo which said there was pressure to "sugar coat" Mr. Bush's performance review.

"It just wouldn't happen," he said. "No officer in his right mind would write a memo like that."

The personnel chief in Killian's unit at the time also said he believes the documents are fake.

"They looked to me like forgeries," said Rufus Martin. "I don't think Killian would do that, and I knew him for 17 years." Killian died in 1984.

Independent document examiner Sandra Ramsey Lines said the memos looked like they had been produced on a computer using Microsoft Word software. Lines, a document expert and fellow of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences, pointed to a superscript — a smaller, raised "th" in "111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron" — as evidence indicating forgery.

Microsoft Word automatically inserts superscripts in the same style as the two on the memos obtained by CBS, she said.

"I'm virtually certain these were computer generated," Lines said after reviewing copies of the documents at her office in Paradise Valley, Ariz. She produced a nearly identical document using her computer's Microsoft Word software.

In the Wednesday broadcast, 60 Minutes said the memos were "documents we are told were taken from Col. Killian's personal file. The program says it consulted a handwriting analyst and document expert who believes the material is authentic.

"As is standard practice at CBS News, the documents in the 60 Minutes report were thoroughly examined and their authenticity vouched for by independent experts," CBS News said in a statement. "As importantly, 60 Minutes also interviewed close associates of Colonel Jerry Killian. They confirm that the documents reflect his opinions and actions at the time."

The White House distributed the four memos from 1972 and 1973 after obtaining them from CBS News. The White House did not question their accuracy.

Robert Strong was a friend and colleague of Killian who ran the Texas Air National Guard administrative office in the Vietnam era. Strong, now a college professor, also believes the documents are genuine.

"They are compatible with the way business was done at the time. They are compatible with the man that I remember Jerry Killian being," says Strong. "I don't see anything in the documents that is discordant with what were the times, what was the situation and what were the people involved."

The documents were described in a 60 Minutes that featured a retired Texas politician's claim that he pulled strings to get young Mr. Bush, then a college graduate at the height of the Vietnam War in 1968, into the Guard — a posting that made service overseas unlikely.

Former Lt. Gov. Ben Barnes — then the 29-year-old speaker of the Texas House — told CBS News Anchor Dan Rather that he used influence on Mr. Bush's behalf at the request of a Houston businessman friendly with the Bush family, oilman Sid Adger.

Mr. Bush has denied he received special treatment. The White House ascribed Barnes' remarks to political motives. Barnes is an adviser to Democratic presidential nominee Sen. John Kerry.

The president's service record emerged as an issue during the 2000 race and again this winter. The Killian documents revived the issue of Mr. Bush's time in uniform after weeks in which Kerry, a decorated Vietnam combat veteran, has faced questions over his record as a Navy officer and an anti-war protester.

In May 1968, Mr. Bush signed a six-year commitment to fly for the Air Guard. Mr. Bush was honorably discharged from the Guard in October 1973 and left the Air Force Reserves in May 1974.

Early in his military career, Mr. Bush received glowing evaluations from Killian, who called Lt. Bush "an exceptionally fine young officer and pilot" who "performed in an outstanding manner."

Documents released this week show Mr. Bush with scores of 88 on an airmanship test, 98 on aviation physiology and 100 on navigational abilities.

The questions about Mr. Bush's service center on how Mr. Bush got into the Guard and whether he fulfilled his duties during a period from mid-1972 to mid-1973.

After taking his last flight in April 1972, Mr. Bush went for six months without showing up for any training drills.

That May, Mr. Bush skipped a required yearly medical examination. In response, his commanders grounded him on Aug. 1, 1972.

In September 1972 he received permission to transfer to the Alabama unit so he could work on a political campaign there.

What the Killian memos purported to show is that Mr. Bush defied a direct order to appear for the physical, that his performance as an officer was lacking in other ways and that Mr. Bush used family connections to try to quash any inquiry into his lapses.

In a separate revelation, the Boston Globe this week reported that Mr. Bush promised to sign up with a Boston-area unit when he left his Texas unit in 1973 to attend Harvard Business School. Mr. Bush never signed up with a Boston unit.

Bartlett claimed in 1999 that Mr. Bush had joined a Boston unit. Bartlett told the Globe this week that he "misspoke."
 
A senior CBS official, who asked not to be named because CBS managers did not want to go beyond their official statement, named one of the network's sources as retired Maj. Gen. Bobby W. Hodges, the immediate superior of the documents' alleged author, Lt. Col. Jerry B. Killian. He said a CBS reporter read the documents to Hodges over the phone and Hodges replied that "these are the things that Killian had expressed to me at the time."

"These documents represent what Killian not only was putting in memoranda, but was telling other people," the CBS News official said. "Journalistically, we've gone several extra miles."

The official said the network regarded Hodges's comments as "the trump card" on the question of authenticity, as he is a Republican who acknowledged that he did not want to hurt Bush. Hodges, who declined to grant an on-camera interview to CBS, did not respond to messages left on his home answering machine in Texas.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A9967-2004Sep9?language=printer
 
All I can see now is that those that want to believe they are real will do so because of the damage it can do.

And those that want to believe that they are fake will do so because of the damage it can do.


So, now what?
 
Someone refresh my memory. Was Dan Rather the newscaster back when Bush 41 was running that had a verbal altercation with him. I remember a heated exchange between Bush 41 and a reporter and I'm thinking it was DR. There is certainly no love lost between Rather and Bush if I'm remember correctly. It just gives me pause that Rather was the one to report this "new" old story about Bush 43.

GeoffM, did you notice we've finally made it to double digits? We started planning last October and it's finally getting close!! While I have your attention, lol, is that a reference to Joseph & the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat in your sig? I love, love, love that musical!
 
EB, do you really believe these documents cannot be verified one way or the other? I'm having trouble believing it cannot be proven definitively one way or the other. Experts have been able to date artifacts hundreds and thousands of years old but cannot determine if 4 memos originated in 1972??? ROFL
 
Originally posted by disney4us2002
EB, do you really believe these documents cannot be verified one way or the other? I'm having trouble believing it cannot be proven definitively one way or the other. Experts have been able to date artifacts hundreds and thousands of years old but cannot determine if 4 memos originated in 1972??? ROFL

When you have one "expert" saying they "believe" them to be original and another person saying the opposite and another saying that their father would never have kept a private memo like that and still another person saying it was consistent with what they knew at the time of the author.......

You can see making a decision on who to believe is quite difficult right now.
 
Originally posted by ToriLammy
Can't help you with the early 70's (and I seriously doubt AFR can either she would have been an infant I think ;) ) but when I joined the AF in 1978 they were just introducing electric typewriters. I took my first week of typing class (Jun 78) on a manual typewriter ;) When I got to my base we had a few electric ones, don't remember them being able to do proportional spacing or superscripts either but it was a long time ago. I do remember how excited we all go when they introduced the Selectrics that could correct mistakes.

I have some questions about the formatting of the memos but then if they really were just for this guys' personal records maybe he typed them himself and that's why the formats look strange. Them being his personal memos also explains why the Pentagon and the White House didn't have copies of them (but one does have to wonder how they turned up now). My biggest thing during all this crap has been that no one has taken the time to research and learn that most of this is not unusual - backdating OMG that happens all the time - falsified - well if that's the case I've falsified a few reports in my time....those poor folks will never be able to run for office ;)

Was it common for officers to write MEMOs to themselves and file them?
 
Originally posted by Geoff_M
Teejay32,

Darn... So much for Bush's chances in Mass.!

Ya think? :p

No, my post was for us news junkies who fully expect all links between Kerry and the documents to be quietly buried today. I don't see how Kerry benefits from this and it's fully possible that the DNC is doing him more harm than good. I have trouble seeing Kerry as planner...but I have no trouble seeing a partnership between DNC + some major media outlets. That's easy.

FTR on old machines I remember using st, nd, rd, th supercripts (maybe not all of them) but I also remember having to count out spaces at the end of lines for word breaks and stuff. The memos are too neat.
 
Originally posted by faithinkarma
I don't remember the name. It was on the news last night. Apparently the interview took place at a lunch with a third person present and they have backed up the statement.

How many tequila shooters were consumed during that lunch?
 
Originally posted by jrydberg
The funny thing is, I don't care whether they're faked our genuine.

I agree. These things were not part of his "military record" to begin with. I can write down anything I think about one of my employees, sign it, put it in a file and accomplish the same thing. Utterly meaningless.
 
I care if they're fake or genuine. It's a disgrace to build a "news" story upon faked documents. I think it smacks of CBS trying to manipulate the election, and that infuriates me! The press is out of control, and it needs to be held accountable.

I also think it's quite apparent AND believable that the documents are fake. There's nothing that I've read (and I've read lots on this subject) that strongly supports the theory that these documents are real. The man's wife and his son (a retired Captain) say that they've never seen them, yet the documents supposedly came from his "personal files?" Yeah, right. :rolleyes: CBS won't name its alleged "experts" that verified the documents. Hmmm, why not? :scratchin
 
faithinkarma,

Several years back a German magazine announced that they'd procured Hilter's diaries. They looked like they were in his handwritting, contained passages that were consistent with the things that Hitler was known to have said and things that he did. But alas, they turned out to be a modern hoax and the magazine was disgraced... rightly so. Killian may, or may not, have said such things about Bush... but you simply can't put forged documents forward to support claims that such things happened.


Elwood,

Short of a forger coming forward, all we're left with are the facts and clues. From what I've read, here's what we have:

1) You can use MS-Word to create an exact duplicate of the memo.

1a) The indentation of the date also happens to match a default tab stop in Word.

1b) The line breaks in the document CBS proports to be from 1973 are identical to the automatic line breaks when the memo is typed in Word using the default margins. On typewriters one must manually determine the line breaks. The odds that a computer and a human would select the same line breaks are very slim.

1c) The centered address at the top of one of the CBS "memos" is identical to the centering one gets by typing the address into MS-Word and using the auto-center feature. The odds of the address alignment when typed manually on a 1972 vintage typewriter with proportional spacing matching the same address as typed into MS-Word is, again, very slim.

2) Though typewriters did exist in 1972 that were able to create many of the characteristics of the memo, the most likely candidate would be an IBM model that was large, expensive, and designed for the publishing industry and not normal office clerical use.

3) The memo appears to use vertical proportional spacing as well as vertical. Not something that was introduced until the advent of word processors.

4) The memo format, style, etc. doesn't match known authentic ones from that unit of that era.

5) On the ones that are signed, there appears to be differences to documents known to be actually signed by Killian.

6) The family says the memo is inconsistent with Killian's methods of recording and keeping information. They've never seent the memos before.

7) CBS isn't saying who their document experts are or the reasons behind the experts' conclusions.

8) You'd think someone on the left leaning blog sites would have been able to reproduce a similar memo using an old Selectric typewriter (there's still enough of them around) and posted it for all to see by now.


disney4us2002,

Yes, Bush 41 shot down Rather during an interview and rendered him uncharacteristically silent for a couple of seconds during the '88 campaign.

(Yes, it's getting close... and I'm still looking for some good rental car prices!)
 
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