Could 60 Minutes documents on Bush be faked?

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Originally posted by faithinkarma
TANG Typewriter Follies; Wingnuts Wrong
by Hunter
Fri Sep 10th, 2004 at 15:37:04 GMT

(From the diaries -- kos)
Against my own better judgment, but because I believe that the more rapidly charges are countered, the better, I spend a goodly portion of the last day researching -- shudder -- typewriters of the '60s and '70s. As everyone on the planet no doubt knows by now, the hard-right of the freeper contingent -- specifically, LittleGreenFootballs, a site which frequently is cited for eliminationist rhetoric and veiled racism, and PowerLine, a site linked to with admiration by such luminaries as Michelle Malkin and Hugh Hewitt -- discovered that if you used the same typeface, you could make documents that looked almost -- but not exactly -- like the TANG documents discovered by CBS News. This qualifies as big news, of course, so from those two sites, the story has spread into the mainstream media through the usual channels, most notably Drudge, NRO, etc.

I do not believe there is any truly "new" information here, but I hope to condense it in one easy-to-digest reference.

So here are some point-by-point findings re: the "forgeries".

Diaries :: Hunter's diary ::

First Claim (LittleGreenFootballs): "The documents can be recreated in Microsoft Word".
What the LGFer did to "prove" this was to type a Microsoft Word document in Times New Roman font, and overlay it with the original document. As he says:



Notice that the date lines up perfectly, all the line breaks are in the same places, all letters line up with the same letters above and below, and the kerning is exactly the same. And I did not change a single thing from Word's defaults; margins, type size, tab stops, etc. are all using the default settings.

We're going to make this simple.

First, of course, in order to do this, he first had to reduce the document so that the margins were the same, since the original PDF distributed by CBS is quite a bit larger. Then he superimposed the two documents, such that the margins on all sides lined up.

What he then discovered is that Times New Roman typeface is, when viewed on a computer monitor, really, really similar to Times New Roman typeface. Or rather, really really similar to a typeface that is similar to Times New Roman typeface.

Um, OK then.

You see, a "typeface" doesn't just consist of the shape of the letters. It also is a set of rules about the size of the letters in different point sizes, the width of those letters, and the spacing between them. These are all designed in as part of the font, by the designer. Since Microsoft Word was designed to include popular and very-long-used typefaces, it is hardly a surprise that those typefaces, in Microsoft Word, would look similar to, er, themselves, on a typewriter or other publishing device. That's the point of typefaces; to have a uniform look across all publishing devices. To look the same. You could use the same typeface in, for example, OpenOffice, and if it's the same font, surprise-surprise, it will look the same.

So kudos on discovering fonts, freeper guy.

Next, however: do they really match up? Well, no. They don't.

If you shrink each document to be approximately 400-500 pixels across, they do indeed look strikingly similar. But that is because you are compressing the information they contain to 400-500 pixels across. At that size, subtle differences in typeface or letter placement simply cannot be detected; the "pixels" are too big. If you compare the two documents at a larger size, the differences between them are much more striking.

For instance: In the original CBS document, some letters "float" above or below the baseline. For example, in the original document, lowercase 'e' is very frequently -- but not always -- above the baseline. Look at the word "interference", or even "me". Typewriters do this; computers don't. Granted, if you are comparing a lowercase 'e' that is only 10 or 12 pixels high with another lowercase 'e' that is only 10 or 12 pixels high, you're not going to see such subtleties. That doesn't prove the differences aren't there; it just proves you're an idiot, for making them each 12 pixels high and then saying "see, they almost match!"

"This typeface -- Times New Roman -- didn't exist in the early 1970s."

There are several problems with this theory. First, Times New Roman, as a typeface, was invented in 1931. Second, typewriters were indeed available with Times New Roman typefaces.

And third, this isn't Times New Roman, at least not the Microsoft version. It's close. But it's not a match.

For example, the '8' characters are decidedly different. The '4's, as viewable on other memos, are completely different; one has an open top, the other is closed.

So yes, we have proven that two typefaces that look similar to each other are indeed, um, similar. At least when each document is shrunk to 400-500 pixels wide... and you ignore some of the characters.

"Documents back then didn't have superscripted 'th' characters"

That one was easy. Yes, many typewriter models had shift-combinations to create 'th', 'nd', and 'rd'. This is most easily proven by looking at known-good documents in the Bush records, which indeed have superscripted 'th' characters interspersed throughout.

"This document uses proportional spacing, which didn't exist in the early 1970s."

Turns out, it did. The IBM Executive electric typewriter was manufactured in four models, A, B, C, and D, starting in 1947, and featured proportional spacing. An example of its output is here. It was an extremely popular model, and was marketed to government agencies.

"OK, fine, but no single machine had proportional spacing, 'th' characters, and a font like that one."

No, again. The IBM Executive is probably the most likely candidate for this particular memo. There is some confusion about this, so to clear up: the IBM Selectric, while very popular, did not have proportional spacing. The Selectric Composer, introduced in 1966, did, and in fact could easily have produced these memos, but it was a very expensive machine, and not likely to be used for light typing duties. The proportional-spacing Executive, on the other hand, had been produced in various configurations since the 1940's, and was quite popular.

(Note: However, it is not immediately clear that the Selectrics and Selectric IIs could not in fact emulate "proportional" spacing. There is skepticism in some circles that these memos really show "proportional" spacing. Looking at the blowups, it appears pretty obvious to me that there is, but still researching.)

Did they have a font that looked like Times New Roman? Unclear; they apparently were manufactured in a range of configurations, and with different available typefaces. Note that these were not "typeball" machines, like the Selectrics; they had a normal row of keys. But it is worth noting that IBM had what we will call a "close" relationship with Times New Roman:



Courier was originally designed in 1956 by Howard Kettler for the revolutionary "golfball" typing head technology IBM was then developing for its electric typewriters. (The first typewriter to use the technology was the IBM Selectric Typewriter that debuted in 1961.) Adrian Frutiger had nothing to do with the design, though IBM hired him in the late 1960s to design a version of his Univers typeface for the Selectric. In the 1960s and 1970s Courier became a mainstay in offices. Consequently, when Apple introduced its first Macintosh computer in 1984 it anachronistically included Courier among its core fonts. In the early 1990s Microsoft, locked in a font format battle with Adobe, hired Monotype Typography to design a series of core fonts for Windows 3.1, many of which were intended to mirror those in the Apple core font group. Thus, New Courier--lighter and crisper than Courier--was born. (In alphabetized screen menus font names are often rearranged for easier access so now we have Courier New MT in which the MT stands for Monotype Typography.)
Courier's vanquisher was Times New Roman, designed in 1931 by Stanley Morison, Typographical Advisor to the Monotype Corporation, with the assistance of draughtsman Victor Lardent. The Times of London first used it the following year. Linotype and Intertype quickly licensed the design, changing its name for their marketing purposes to Times Roman. Times Roman became an original core font for Apple in the 1980s and Times New Roman MT became one for Windows in the 1990s. (Ironically, at the same time IBM invited Frutiger to adapt Univers for the Selectric Typewriter, they asked Morison to do the same with Times New Roman.)

So, as you can see, both IBM and Microsoft specifically obtained the typeface "Times New Roman" from the designers of that font; neither was the creator of it. And, as we said before, typeface includes not just the "shape" of the letters, but the size and spacing between those letters.

One of the differences between the Times New Roman as implemented on the IBM machines, as opposed to Microsoft Word? The IBM machines apparently had the alternative '4' character that matched these memos, while Microsoft Word's TNR does not.

Oops.

Now, would the 111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron have extravagantly purchased typewriters that contained the th superscript key? Would the military want or require typewriters with the 'th', 'nd', and 'rd' characters? Hmm. Ponder, Ponder. What would the 111th need with a th character... I'll leave that to the enterprising among you to deduce.

This is not the final word on this, and it is certainly possible that any documents are forgeries. But the principle argument of the freepers -- that it would be impossible for a TANG office in 1972 to produce documents that look like these -- is simply false. Within a few days, however, we should know for sure either way; these typewriters still have a following, and type samples should be forthcoming.

Update [2004-9-10 4:26:25 by Hunter]: Also see kj's diary just after this one, for evidence on the IBM Selectric Composer, first marketed in 1966. This machine definitively had all the features necessary to produce these documents. Because it was apparently very expensive and difficult to use, the argument is that a TANG office would never have had one. Unclear. Nonetheless, it strikes down the theory that a 60s-70s era machine could not have produced these docs.

Update [2004-9-10 5:48:19 by Hunter]: Here is an excellent article explaining the recent history of Times New Roman in particular. Note that Adobe, Microsoft, Apple, and other firms redesigned their "Times [New] Roman" typefaces in the 80s-90s specifically to more accurately match the original design of Times New Roman:

When Microsoft produced its version of Times New Roman, licensed from Monotype, in TrueType format, and when Apple produced its version of Times Roman, licensed from Linotype, in TrueType format, the subtle competition took on a new aspect, because both Microsoft and Apple expended a great deal of time and effort to make the TrueType versions as good as, or better than, the PostScript version. During the same period, Adobe released ATM along with upgraded versions of its core set of fonts, for improved rasterization on screen. Also, firms like Imagen, now part of QMS, and Sun developed rival font scaling technologies, and labored to make sure that their renderings of Times, licensed from Linotype in both cases, were equal to those of their competitors. Hence, the perceived quality of the Times design became a litmus for the quality of several font formats. Never before, and probably never again, would the precise placement of pixels in the serifs or 's' curves etc. of Times Roman occupy the attention of so many engineers and computer scientists. It was perhaps the supreme era of the Digital Fontologist.
So as you can see, it has indeed been a primary design goal of Microsoft and other firms to make their Times New Roman font match the original 1930's typeface design as closely as possible.
Update [2004-9-10 6:47:49 by Hunter]: Here is an actual manual for an IBM Selectric Composer, circa 1966, itself created using a Composer.

Update [2004-9-10 14:26:41 by Hunter]: This is from a commenter at Kevin Drum's Washington Monthly site:

Kevin, I worked in the IBM Office Products Division field service area fixing typewriters in NYC for over 13 years in the 70s. I can tell you that the Model D can produce those documents, not only did it do proportional spacing, you could order any font that IBM produced AND order keys that had the aftmentioned superscripted "th." Also you could order the platen, thats the roller that grabs the paper, in a 54 tooth configuration that produced space, space and a half and double spacing on the line indexing, this BTW was popular in legal offices. The Model D had to be ordered from a IBM salesmen and was not something that was a off the shelf item, typical delivery time were 4-6 weeks. Also, typewriter keys were changed in the field all the time, its not that hard to do. I wish I had saved my service and parts replacement manuals to backup this claim but I'm guessing a call to IBM with a request for a copy of their font and parts replacement manuals would put this to rest ASAP. Posted by: BillG NYC on September 10, 2004 at 12:24 PM | PERMALINK
FYI, but I have found nothing that contradicts this information. It would appear you could order the humble IBM Executive with a wide variety of typestyles and characters, especially if you were a large, important client.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/9/10/34914/1603

Thank you for the info, and food for thought. Could you tell me what a freeper is?

Tony
 
I hesitate to answer because I am not sure. But I believe it is someone who posts on a board called the free republic. I imagine someone will step in to correct me if I am wrong.
 
faithinkarma,

You are correct, "freeper" is the term used for people that use the "Free Republic" web site.

I read the fogery rebuttal earlier today, but it doesn't come close to answering all the questions. It's true that some of the early clues mentioned in the forgery allegations weren't correct... proportional spacing did exist in a couple makes of typewriters in 1972, the advent of the TNR font did pre-date 1972. However, the BEST the Kos piece can claim is that it either was from Word or a typewriter. But here's what it doesn't address:

1) Auto-centering, as I posted above. Anybody that ever had to make centered cover pages for school papers on a typewriter will understand how unlikely it would be to get the CBS and MS-Word copies to identically match... particularly with proportional spacing.

2) Auto-word wrapping what are the odds that MS-Word, with the default margins, and the person that supposedly typed the CBS memo just happened to choose the exact same words to hit the carriage return key as MS-Word does?

3) The author is correct, there are Selectric devotees out there. Here's that the owner of www.selectric.org has to say on the matter:
For those who want my opinion...the documents appear to be done in Word, and then copied repeatedly to make them "fuzzy". They use features that were not available on office typewriters the 1970s, specifically the combination of proportional spacing with superscript font. The IBM Executive has proportional spacing, but used fixed type bars. The Selectric has changeable type elements, but fixed spacing (some models could be selected at 10 or 12 pitch, but that's all). The Selectric Composer was not an office typewriter, but apparently did use proportional spacing. These were very expensive machines, used by printing offices, not administrative offices.
http://www.selectric.org/selectric/index.html
He also posts examples of the machines and fonts mentioned in the Kos piece.

3) There is yet, that I've read, a single document expert that people like the AP and ABC News, etc. have talked to on the record who thinks the CBS documents were done on a typewriter. Their analysis is the same: it was almost certainly done on a computer, and it looks like MS-Word. CBS is refusing to mention the names or give the reasoning of their document exports.
 
Did you watch the CBS news tonight? Rather did a pretty good job of backing up his story. Hard to explain if you did not see it. The transcript will be available later this evening.
 

Yeah, he did a pretty good job of not addressing most of the problems with these documents. The formatting errors alone call these documents into question. I sure liked his reference to attacks from "partisan political operatives". Like CBS and 60 Minutes? This story isn't over.
 
From AOL news:

WASHINGTON (AP) - CBS News mounted an aggressive defense Friday of its report about President Bush's service in the Air National Guard, with anchor Dan Rather saying broadcast memos questioned by forensic experts came from "what we consider to be solid sources."

On Friday's "CBS Evening News," Rather said that "no definitive evidence" has emerged to prove the documents are forgeries. "If any definitive evidence comes up, we will report it," Rather said.

The show also showed excerpts of interviews with Marcel Matley, a San Francisco document expert, who said he believed the memos were genuine.

CBS can state "with absolute certainty" that the disputed memos could have been produced on typewriters available in the early 1970s when the memos are purported to have been written, the network said. Rather said the typeface and style of the memos were available on typewriters since well before the 1970s.

Some forensic experts were quoted by news organizations, including The Associated Press, saying the memos appeared to have been computer-generated with characteristics that weren't available three decades ago.

But CBS News said in a statement: "The documents are backed up not only by independent handwriting and forensic document experts but sources familiar with their content." Matley was the only expert cited, and he focused on signatures on the memos.

Matley and Rather acknowledged the memos were difficult to definitively authenticate because CBS has only photocopies, not the originals. Matley did not return a telephone message left at his office immediately after Friday's report.

At question are memos that carry the signature of the late Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, who was the commander of Bush's Texas Air National Guard fighter squadron. They say Killian was under pressure to "sugar coat" Bush's record, and Bush refused a direct order to take a required medical examination and discussed how he could skip drills.

"60 Minutes" relied on the documents as part of a Wednesday segment - reported by Rather - on Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard from 1968 to 1973.

Former colleagues of Killian disagreed Friday on the authenticity of the documents.

One, who appeared in the TV newsmagazine segment, said Friday he did not see anything in the memos that made him think they were forgeries. Robert Strong noted he's not a forensic expert and isn't vouching for the documents.

"I didn't see anything that was inconsistent with how we did business," Strong said in an interview. "It looked like the sort of thing that Jerry Killian would have done or said. He was a very professional guy."

Both Wednesday and Friday, Strong was the only associate of Killian quoted by CBS as supporting the memo's contents.

Retired Col. Maurice Udell, the unit's instructor pilot who helped train Bush, said Friday he thought the documents were fake.

"I completely am disgusted with this (report) I saw on '60 Minutes,"' Udell said. "That's not true. I was there. I knew Jerry Killian. I went to Vietnam with Jerry Killian in 1968."

Killian's son also questioned some of the documents, saying his father would never write a memo like the "sugar coat" one.

Several of the document examiners said one clue that the documents may be forgeries was the presence of superscripts - in this case, a raised, smaller "th" in two references to Guard units.

Rather said typewriters were available in the early 1970s which were capable of printing superscripts. CBS pointed to other Texas Air National Guard documents released by the White House that include an example of a raised "th" superscript.

That superscript, however, is in a different typeface than the one used for the CBS memos. Document examiner Sandra Ramsey Lines of Paradise Valley, Ariz., who examined the documents for the AP, said she was "virtually certain" they were generated by computer.

Lines said that meant she could testify in court that, beyond a reasonable doubt, her opinion was that the memos were written on a computer.

CBS has not revealed its source or sources for the documents or the names of experts besides Matley it said examined the memos before Wednesday's report.

Bush spokesman Scott McClellan said Friday the White House, which distributed the memos after obtaining them from CBS News, was not trying to verify their authenticity. "We don't know if the documents are fabricated or authentic," McClellan told reporters traveling with the president to West Virginia.

McClellan suggested the memos surfaced as part of "an orchestrated effort by Democrats and the Kerry campaign to tear down the president."

Associated Press Correspondent Kelley Shannon contributed to this report from Austin, Texas.
 
specifically which problems do you feel he did not address?
Per CBS, the critics are wrong because:

1) Typewriters did exist in 1972 that could do superscript.
Ra<sup>th</sup>er: MANY OF THOSE RAISING QUESTIONS ABOUT THE CBS DOCUMENTS HAVE FOCUSED ON SOMETHING CALLED SUPERSCRIPT... A KEY THAT AUTOMATICALLY TYPES A RAISED "TH". CRITICS CLAIM TYPEWRITERS DIDN'T HAVE THAT ABILITY IN THE 70S. BUT SOME MODELS DID....IN FACT, OTHER BUSH MILITARY RECORDS ALREADY OFFICIALLY RELEASED BY THE WHITE HOUSE ITSELF SHOW THE SAME SUPERSCRIPT.

2) The NTR font did exist in 1972
Ra<sup>th</sup>er: SOME ANALYSTS OUTSIDE CBS SAY THEY BELIEVE THE TYPEFACE ON THESE MEMOS IS NEW TIMES ROMAN.... WHICH THEY CLAIM WAS NOT AVAILABLE IN THE 1970S.

BUT THE OWNER OF THE COMPANY THAT DISTRIBUTES THIS TYPING STYLE.... SAYS IT HAS BEEN AVAILABE SINCE 1931.

3) The image quality isn't good enough for the critics to make judgement calls.
Ra<sup>th</sup>er: HE (the expert CBS contacted) SAYS HE BELIEVES THEY ARE REAL...BUT IS CONCERNED ABOUT EXACTLY WHAT IS BEING EXAMINED BY SOME OF THE PEOPLE QUESTIONING THE DOCUMENTS....BECAUSE DETIORATION OCCURS EACH TIME A DOCUMENT IS REPRODUCED.....AND THE DOCUMENTS BEING ANALYZED OUTSIDE OF CBS HAVEBEEN PHOTOCOPIED, FAXED, SCANNED AND DOWNLOADED.... AND ARE FAR REMOVED FROM THE DOCUMENTS CBS STARTED WITH WHICH WERE ALSO PHOTOCOPIES.

Here's what Ra<sup>th</sup>er DIDN'T address (and it pretty much the same thing for the Kos piece):

a) What about the word wrapping that matches Word?

b) What about the apparent auto-centering that matches Word?

c) Pretty coincedential that the position of the date marks the exact location of a default Word tab stop, isn't it? Particulary given points a & b.

d) Most of the examples that the critics looked at were downloaded off of CBS's website. So as far as being "detiorated", they were at most one generation removed from the copies that CBS used. Detioration also doesn't impact the word wrapping, auto-centering, and tab stop issues.

e) So proportional spacing, superscripted "th's" and fonts similar to TNR existed in 1972 in typewriters... so what model contained all these features? At least one collector of Selectrics, the model foisted as the most likely culprit, says no such combination existed at the time in the IBM line-up.

f) Signatures... well this guy seems to be the first guy that thinks the handwritting passes muster. I'm no expert, but when I see pen strokes shooting off in different directions, it mades me go "Hmmmm."

Ra<sup>th</sup>er: The "60 Minutes" report was based NOT solely on the recovered documents .. but on a preponderance of evidence ..
After making a strong defense of the "memos", Dan seems to be hedging his bets here. My translation: "Well, even if they are forgeries we still think we got the goods on W!"
 
Another interesting issue was addressed by a man I saw interviewed on the news tonight. He questioned why Bush would have been ordered to report for a physical on the 14th of May. He said back then that you had a 3 month window before the last day of your birth month to get a physical. Bush's birthday is in July. He wondered why an order was issued only 14 days into the window.
 
I find this whole thing very amusing due to Rather's connection. I was wondering how many other personal memos from Killian's file exist that were typed in the same font, with the same spacing, and using the same type of language (i.e. sugarcoat). Can anyone produce a large quantity of memos from Killian which would confirm it was his practice to type his memos in the same manner with the same type? His wife and son claim it was not his practice to do so. If this is not true, there should be plenty of evidence in his files.

Edit: I mistakenly posted this message under my wife's name. She wants nothing to do with it. Mike B63
 
Here's some images to drive the point home. Charlie, the owner of Little Green Footballs, decided to take things a step further. He used a Mac and used the TextEdit word processor to see if he could make a copy of the CBS memo. He set the font to TNR and used default settings for tabs, margins, and such. Here's what he got:

aug181973memo-txted.gif


Compare it with the CBS memo:

aug-18-1973-memo.gif


Here's an overlay of the Mac and CBS memos:
aug181973txted-over.gif


Major differences in word wrapping, spacing, tab stops, etc.

OK, now here's an animated GIF that toggles between the CBS memo and his copy of the CBS memo as keyed into MS-Word with the defaults:
aug181973-overlay.gif


Take the Word version of the document, run it through a copier a couple of generations to inject a little distortion to the image... and "presto" CBS memo!

(And before people start to hyperventalate about the position of the "th". This is a screen shot from Word. When you actually print it, the superscripted "th" aligns just fine with the CBS memo.)

So, come again Dan?
 
Originally posted by faithinkarma
specifically which problems do you feel he did not address?

I was civil service, worked as a secretary for the Air Force. Here are my problems with the documents.

1. Why aren't these on letterhead? Everything I typed was on letterhead, with the seal in the left hand corner.

2. A military signature block looks like this:

JERRY B. KILLIAN, Lt Col, TX ANG
Commander


66243943.jpg


4. You do not put periods in acronyms in the military, i.e. 111th F.I.S. That's a big mistake.

5. And CYA? No Lt Col would put that in a file.
 
Olaf - good points.

I find this all very interesting not so much from the political point most of you do but from a mystery point of view. How to detect the documents are false. And then who set CBS up because that is what it appears to me and why CBS wants to fight it so much. If it is false then they and their entire news division looks like fools. Forget the politics and think of it as a mystery.

I know those type of documents well as I was a clerk in the division HQ's for the 1st Armored division during this same time period. I had those type of military documents in my hands every day, hundreads of them. I never saw any military documents with this sort of thing. I typed all sorts of documents as I was a clerk. You never centered anything. No army clerk at least knew how or had the time to do it. Now remember this was a Divisin HQ and we had all the new equipment. Certainly, no most certainly there was never an documents with that small th. That just was impossible. Just absolutely no. CBS's claim that there were typewritters that were capable is just unbelieviable to me and really looks like a CYA for sure.



I thought NBC did a good job tonight in the news with an expert that said that no real expert would conclude these documents as real.
 
Originally posted by snarfer1
Do you SIGN the memos you write to yourself?

I usually use a post-it note myself......

Plus is the Th of your screen name the same th superscript that started this whole mess????? I smell a conspiracy!

Are you pulling my leg or have you really gone crazy? What the hell is happening to this country? Have we all gone nuts?

Enough of the frigging fonts and spaces and th's and periods and commas. Jesus Christ, get a grip.
 
Originally posted by dmadman43
Thanks for the random reference. But, I asked if it was common for OFFICERS in the military to write Memos to themselves. Can you tell me if you wrote Memos to yourself when you were in the military? Was it common practice for you then? I also note that there does not appear to be any watermark on the copies. Didn't the military use paper with watermarks on them for official memos?

I don't give a crap what you asked. That's the way I answered it. When you become board moderator, then you can complain about how I answer a question.

Btw, if you don't like how I answer a post, you can either crawl back in the spider hole you came out of or put me on your ignore list.
 
Originally posted by ThAnswr
Are you pulling my leg or have you really gone crazy? What the hell is happening to this country? Have we all gone nuts?

Enough of the frigging fonts and spaces and th's and periods and commas. Jesus Christ, get a grip.

Ok.
 
Originally posted by Elwood Blues
Ok.

Thank you for answering my rant. ;)

Truly, I think we've all gone nuts in this country. It's like a collective madness has come over us. This has got to end.

Yanno what the scariest thing is. No matter who wins this election, we'll still be at each other's throats. What's going to be the end result of all of this bickering and suspicion? Civil war?

Good Lord!
 
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