*Confirmed* G+ Changes to Advanced Lightning Lane

[afan]

I'm about to be going there in October. But from what I understand a large part is cultural differences. They do not mind waiting in line and their rides routinely pack a long wait. I've seen many photos of the queues (orderly as well) for just getting into the park and it's extremely long even though almost all accounts are that morning entry into the parks goes by quickly. I just saw a post elsewhere the other day discussing 60 mins worth of a queue just to get food and it being discussed as normal.

I think we, here in the U.S., used to be more like this as a whole. Many of us remember as kids going to parks (whether it was Disney or not) and waiting in line.

Oh I get that but they used to have free fp before covid and they are used to the lottery. I expected more to use the free fp again, gives you more time to wait in another line.

Plus they are still only selling 1 day tickets, not like it's a bunch of people with APs that go all the time and don't mind waiting.

 

[tjkraz]

You're assuming everyone would want to ride at the exact same time. They wouldn't. The only thing the scheduled genie times do is guarantee people will stay in the parks longer.

It doesn't take "everyone" wanting to ride at the same time to throw the system into a tailspin. It just takes...a large percentage. And that absolutely would happen.

Disney attractions can only accommodate 1500-2000 riders per hour. I don't think it's known how many Genie passes they sell daily, but it's certainly some multiple of that. (As evidenced by Slinky, Remy and others exhausting their daily supply of passes within a few hours.)

Right now, you wake up at 7am and get a pass for Slinky. Let's say the return time is noon. Park opens at 8am so at 10am you can get a second Genie pass. Get one for Millennium Falcon and the return time is 11am. After riding that, get a pass for Runaway Railway with a return at 12pm. By 12pm, ride RR and then go use the Slinky pass. By 12:30 - 1pm, you've used 3 genie passes without using Standby lines for those peak attractions.

Without timed return windows, I think it's rather naive to believe that you could arrive at the park and simply get in the Slinky Genie line at 8am...ride quickly and move on to Falcon...ride and then on to Runaway Railway with no bottlenecks or long waits, and be done sometime before 1pm. There are simply too many people wanting to do the exact same thing.

In a hypothetical world, if nobody has any Genie reservations and they can go to any attraction at any time of their choosing, things absolutely would back up. The system (park) just does not have unlimited capacity. When I'm forced to (virtually) wait 4 hours for Slinky, an hour for Falcon and an hour for RR, it's because other people are utilizing the earlier capacity.

For every hypothetical "win" there's an offsetting loss. In this case, eliminating the timed return windows means that guests would show up at the genie line in inconsistent numbers, and could easily find themselves waiting 30...45...60 minutes if the backlog is greater than the capacity the ride can accommodate.

It's not all that different than standby lines, whose sizes are only limited by guests' willingness to wait. Eliminate G+ return windows and all we're really accomplished is creating two standby lines. Fewer people may have access to one of the lines. But there's nothing preventing 1000+ families from getting in the Slinky Genie line within an hour of opening if it's high on their list.

 

[New Mouse]

It doesn't take "everyone" wanting to ride at the same time to throw the system into a tailspin. It just takes...a large percentage. And that absolutely would happen.

I don't know why you think this. Universal does it without issue. The guests attending these parks are essentially the same. Heck, Universal does it the hard way where the majority of their express passes are unlimited rerides

 

[jade1]

The Universal "math" might get interesting in the near future with a huge new park, and several brand new resorts. Guess we'll see how they handle the Express Pass situation then - they also have some tough decisions!

Well the new Grand is 500 rooms, while the other 3 deluxe are 650, 750 and 1,000. So that one alone will easily fit in, assuming they are all in that same program. Probably the 2 new ones next door even.

 

[kc51570]

I don't know why you think this. Universal does it without issue. The guests attending these parks are essentially the same. Heck, Universal does it the hard way where the majority of their express passes are unlimited rerides

Universal has millions of less visitors per year and their rides have more height restrictions than what Disney has. Most of the rides at Disney can accommodate smaller kids. There may be some overlap in the demographic, but they are two different audiences. A preschooler or kindergartner may be able to ride Slinky Dog or Mine Train, but they can’t ride Harry Potter. Forget about the big coasters. Plenty of adults won’t ride the Universal coasters either but have 0 problem with the Disney coasters. And I would also add that you are much more likely to trip over or get run over by a stroller at Disney than Universal. There are only a handful of rides little kids can go on at Universal.
When Covid was winding down and Disney had ramped up capacity but had no skip the line system in place, there were thousands upon thousands of people entering before rope drop thinking they would have some kind of advantage. Yes, there are still crowds of people at rope drop, but it’s not like it was in the summer of 2021. The return windows with Genie or old preselected times with FP helps to spread those people out.

 

[Minnie1222]

Heck, Universal does it the hard way where the majority of their express passes are unlimited rerides

Even with the unlimited rerides, how many times can an average person go on a coaster like Hulk or Velocicoaster in a day? Simpsons back to back? No thanks.

 

[Minnie1222]

Well the new Grand is 500 rooms, while the other 3 deluxe are 650, 750 and 1,000. So that one alone will easily fit in, assuming they are all in that same program. Probably the 2 new ones next door even.

That's going to be a lot of people with EP if each room has 4 occupants. I'm curious to see what the rack rates will be for these rooms.

I believe they already announced that the other two hotels are "Values". No EP there.

 

[tx911]

It doesn't take "everyone" wanting to ride at the same time to throw the system into a tailspin. It just takes...a large percentage. And that absolutely would happen.

Disney attractions can only accommodate 1500-2000 riders per hour. I don't think it's known how many Genie passes they sell daily, but it's certainly some multiple of that. (As evidenced by Slinky, Remy and others exhausting their daily supply of passes within a few hours.)

Right now, you wake up at 7am and get a pass for Slinky. Let's say the return time is noon. Park opens at 8am so at 10am you can get a second Genie pass. Get one for Millennium Falcon and the return time is 11am. After riding that, get a pass for Runaway Railway with a return at 12pm. By 12pm, ride RR and then go use the Slinky pass. By 12:30 - 1pm, you've used 3 genie passes without using Standby lines for those peak attractions.

Without timed return windows, I think it's rather naive to believe that you could arrive at the park and simply get in the Slinky Genie line at 8am...ride quickly and move on to Falcon...ride and then on to Runaway Railway with no bottlenecks or long waits, and be done sometime before 1pm. There are simply too many people wanting to do the exact same thing.

In a hypothetical world, if nobody has any Genie reservations and they can go to any attraction at any time of their choosing, things absolutely would back up. The system (park) just does not have unlimited capacity. When I'm forced to (virtually) wait 4 hours for Slinky, an hour for Falcon and an hour for RR, it's because other people are utilizing the earlier capacity.

For every hypothetical "win" there's an offsetting loss. In this case, eliminating the timed return windows means that guests would show up at the genie line in inconsistent numbers, and could easily find themselves waiting 30...45...60 minutes if the backlog is greater than the capacity the ride can accommodate.

It's not all that different than standby lines, whose sizes are only limited by guests' willingness to wait. Eliminate G+ return windows and all we're really accomplished is creating two standby lines. Fewer people may have access to one of the lines. But there's nothing preventing 1000+ families from getting in the Slinky Genie line within an hour of opening if it's high on their list.

I would like it if they let you pick your time slot like they do on ILL.

They could have the time slots “sell out” and become unavailable once a certain number of riders chose that particular slot.

 

[Jrb1979]

I don't know why you think this. Universal does it without issue. The guests attending these parks are essentially the same. Heck, Universal does it the hard way where the majority of their express passes are unlimited rerides

They also limit the amount of guests buying it at the parks. A lot less people have Express Pass compared to Genie+. I recall on one earnings call they said about 50% of guests buy Genie+ each day. I bet at Universal its closer to 25% of daily guests that have Express Pass

 

[Jrb1979]

Even with the unlimited rerides, how many times can an average person go on a coaster like Hulk or Velocicoaster in a day? Simpsons back to back? No thanks.

I agree. For the most part the average guest is happy with riding most rides just once per day

 

[New Mouse]

They also limit the amount of guests buying it at the parks. A lot less people have Express Pass compared to Genie+. I recall on one earnings call they said about 50% of guests buy Genie+ each day. I bet at Universal its closer to 25% of daily guests that have Express Pass

But they also have 2x the amount of parks for guests to use it at.

It doesn't work at Disney simply because they don't want to give up the control, same as they hung onto park reservations and park hopping restrictions for so long when they were completely unnecessary.

0 actual operational reason behind why it has to be that way.

Considering they've swapped recently as far as guest satisfaction goes, Disney may want to take a page or two out of Universals book.

 

[MJJME]

I am the only one on here who doesn't have a big problem with the 7am thing? If you're getting in the park for rope-drop (which let's face it, if you're shelling out $25-$35 for G+, you want to make the most of it surely?) then chances are you'll be awake long before 7.

When I was staying on-site last year, I was already waiting at the bus stop for a ride to Magic Kingdom when 7am rolled round as our plan was to get to the park at least 45 minutes before they let us in at 8:30, so we could be near the front of the crowd. So having already purchased it back in my room, I started booking my first rides while we were already on the move (thanks Disney Transport Wi-Fi!).

Even on days where we were having a more relaxed start, typically at least one of us would still be up and about or having breakfast at or near 7, especially given how long we know it takes to get everyone ready and out the door in the mornings. The days we'd lie-in would be days where we weren't going to a park at all, or ones where we knew in advance we weren't going to buy Genie+ (e.g. an afternoon half-day at Epcot).

If you really think about it, only about 10% of the guests that go to the parks go for rope drop....MK averages about 60k people per day and only about 6k of those are there for rope drop.....So the vast majority do not........The best part of Genie+ is that you dont have to rope drop........stacking is much more efficient then any other illiteration of line skipping that WDW has had........We never get up early on vacation............Epcot has been great using Genie+ for us...........We would buy ILL for GOTG and also get a VQ so we could ride 2x......Then stack TT, Soarning, Remys, Frozen, get to the park around 3pm and not wait in one single line.........So worth the $25 to us

 

[MJJME]

That's similar to my opinion as well.

It's been pointed out in various threads that Disney has too many of these to effectively do this. Of course they could but from the discussion of what makes Genie+ better overall it would just lead to too many having this benefit.


They don't need incentives to stay deluxe. More than enough people are willing to do this even with limited to no benefits.

This is not true....hotel bookings are down in 2024 and thats with current promotions

 

[MJJME]

I'm pretty sure Disney never releases the number of Genie+ sales. I don't think I've seen that type of info anyway.

They did verbally comment that about half of the guests were using it at the beginning of last year

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

This is not true....hotel bookings are down in 2024 and thats with current promotions

What's not true? That people will book Deluxe (and DVC since it was mentioned) without much perks? Yes indeed that is true. They do not need to provide a perk, most especially exclusive Genie+ access, to have people book at those levels.

People do presently, have in the past, and will in the future book the highest level without much, if any, perks. Historically Disney's levels are based primarily in location and type of hotel. Proximity, dining locations, inside vs outside entry, theming, etc all are at the core of what Deluxe resorts at Disney are.

What I stated was factually correct...maybe you wouldn't stay at a Deluxe (or DVC) but plenty will.

 

[tjkraz]

I don't know why you think this. Universal does it without issue. The guests attending these parks are essentially the same. Heck, Universal does it the hard way where the majority of their express passes are unlimited rerides

Portofino Bay, Hard Rock and Royal Pacific have fewer than 2000 rooms combined. With an average occupancy of maybe 3 guests, we're talking 6000 people who get "free" express pass, spread across 2 parks. And some unknown number of guests paying $150-300 each as an add-on.

The genie cost is 1/5 to 1/10 of that, and they're undoubtedly selling to many thousands more.

Personally, I don't see how anyone could look at the current state of Disney Genie and standby lines, and assume that it would flow like Universal Express Pass if all of the restrictions were lifted. It would be a logjam of Genie+ buyers flooding one queue after another, expecting to ride every attraction in the park. (Something that there simply isn't enough capacity to happen.)

The only way this works is with a much lower cap on G+ purchases, and thus much higher price. And the net impact would be Genie+ buyers riding even more, while standby lines grow and negatively impact all others.

 

[DebbieB]

I would like it if they let you pick your time slot like they do on ILL.

They could have the time slots “sell out” and become unavailable once a certain number of riders chose that particular slot.

Yes, that’s my big request. I was at AK last Tuesday and planned to go to DHS in the evening. I wanted to do Tower of Terror around 6:00-7:00. It was a gamble picking rides at AK so that I would be able to book Tower when 6:00 came up. Luckily it worked out. I got on Safari around 1:15, then Tower was open for 6:15.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Personally, I don't see how anyone could look at the current state of Disney Genie and standby lines, and assume that it would flow like Universal Express Pass if all of the restrictions were lifted. It would be a logjam of Genie+ buyers flooding one queue after another, expecting to ride every attraction in the park. (Something that there simply isn't enough capacity to happen.)

If I had to guess you're thinking along these lines because you know Disney wouldn't limit it enough both by price and by raw numbers of people able to buy it. That is probably true because Disney doesn't know how to work their programs no matter which program they go with lol.

 

[tjkraz]

If I had to guess you're thinking along these lines because you know Disney wouldn't limit it enough both by price and by raw numbers of people able to buy it. That is probably true because Disney doesn't know how to work their programs no matter which program they go with lol.

I think Disney is very afraid to make their line-skipping option a $150-300 product which is only available to a few thousand guests per day. Specifically, concerned about the public outcry. In terms of the impact on Standby lines, it could end up being the best implementation for everyone. But cries of "Disney is only for the ultra rich" would grow exponentially.

Personally, I think Disney probably takes a very thoughtful approach to projecting how changes impact the overall guest experience. Disney SHOULD be able to come off the 7am reservation time and probably offer better ability to chose ride times. Those are my biggest beefs, and the pain points they can seemingly most easily address.

But in terms of capacity, the core problem is that you've got an average of 30,000 people per day visiting parks like DHS and Epcot, and rides like Slinky + Remy only being able to accommodate 50-60% of those guests. (Less if there's a breakdown.) That includes both standby and Genie. So every change is really just a matter of shuffling the deck. They aren't putting any more butts in seats, it's just changing the way of doling-out existing capacity, making it more or less painful for certain groups.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I think Disney is very afraid to make their line-skipping option a $150-300 product which is only available to a few thousand guests per day. Specifically, concerned about the public outcry. In terms of the impact on Standby lines, it could end up being the best implementation for everyone. But cries of "Disney is only for the ultra rich" would grow exponentially.

Personally, I think Disney probably takes a very thoughtful approach to projecting how changes impact the overall guest experience. Disney SHOULD be able to come off the 7am reservation time and probably offer better ability to chose ride times. Those are my biggest beefs, and the pain points they can seemingly most easily address.

But in terms of capacity, the core problem is that you've got an average of 30,000 people per day visiting parks like DHS and Epcot, and rides like Slinky + Remy only being able to accommodate 50-60% of those guests. (Less if there's a breakdown.) That includes both standby and Genie. So every change is really just a matter of shuffling the deck. They aren't putting any more butts in seats, it's just changing the way of doling-out existing capacity, making it more or less painful for certain groups.

Most def. PR-issues is why they haven't gone the route they have. They however pinned themselves in that corner. I don't even know that hindsight is 20/20 here because they have past precedent but the best time to have done this was during the pandemic when they launched their product. They have known in the past countless times when they price things too low. I don't actually think Disney takes a very thoughtful approach unless by that you mean they look at short-term vs long-term.

Remember the special bus that would take you into a different entrance into the park? That started low priced and quickly raised and then eventually they stopped doing it. It was very well received but my hunch is they figured out it was unsustainable for the pricing they had it for.

MaxPass started at $10, then went to $15, then went to $20.

And so on and so on.

I don't disagree about shuffling the deck but I don't know that any poster has stated anything differently. You can't just create more capacity out of an existing attraction. What people are talking about is adjusting the Genie+ line. No one has argued anything differently when discussing existing attractions. Most of us recognize Disney needs more people-eating attractions that aren't attracting newer guests but providing a break for existing attractions.