Commerical Use Policy Update - New Thread!

[Mouseforward]

Given that we saw entire months (I think I can mention this now that it's long gone?) dropped at one or more Crescent Lake Resorts for certain room types, I would think it had to be DVC, or the big commercial renters are even bigger than I realized... but if it because DVC didn't sell them, that doesn't bode super well for the general WDW hotel/resort occupancy.

Sort of a bummer for this BCV and later resorts owner, but BWV is where enforcement is needed most of all.

However it is very telling that they said " hey lets delete that part" I would have thought that it would have been in RIV and not in the early DVCs

 

[Sandisw]

However it is very telling that they said " hey lets delete that part" I would have thought that it would have been in RIV and not in the early DVCs

It also could be that it didn’t make sense to even have it.

Speculation here but I doubt the board will do anything in terms of rules and enforcement that don’t apply to all resorts.

One thing that I didn’t check is whether or not any amendments were ever done to remove that from those resorts that have it.

 

[Sandisw]

Given that we saw entire months (I think I can mention this now that it's long gone?) dropped at one or more Crescent Lake Resorts for certain room types, I would think it had to be DVC, or the big commercial renters are even bigger than I realized... but if it because DVC didn't sell them, that doesn't bode super well for the general WDW hotel/resort occupancy.

Sort of a bummer for this BCV and later resorts owner, but BWV is where enforcement is needed most of all.

The other possibility is it was a glitch? That happened a few years ago with VGC when all of a sudden entire months showed available and turned out it was not real.

 

[lowlight]

The other possibility is it was a glitch? That happened a few years ago with VGC when all of a sudden entire months showed available and turned out it was not real.

I hope not. That’s gonna be a real bad time for DVC member services then. There were quite a few people saying they were able to grab a room both here, and on FB. Not to mention the ones grabbed by the renters and people who don’t even use message boards. It happened twice in a week at a different variety of resorts.

 

[sndral]

Why would Disney release inventory back to DVC? Even if the rooms haven't rented yet, I can't see Disney being that altruistic. Why wouldn't they just offer discounts on the rooms?

I'm not arguing, just curious. I don't know if DVC is enforcing anything, just trying to understand what might be going on.

Inventory ‘abnormalities’ pop up occasionally at WDW including DVC.
Sometimes it’s a computer malfunction which shows more inventory than is there - ala VGC - twice, sometimes all the inventory that should load doesn’t - I remember this happening at AKV at least once, sometimes it’s refurb scheduling adjustments. Disney has the ability to pull anticipatory breakage inventory for cash rentals, so maybe the algorithm that predicts breakage adjusted showing less anticipated breakage & some of the anticipatory breakage was put back into DVC for points reservations.
Maybe Disney vacations are like the canary in the coal mine for economic indicators & owners are deciding a WDW vacation is one item of discretionary spending they’ll cut this year, general WDW attendance is reportedly softening so it wouldn’t be surprising for DVC bookings to be down as well.
&, finally, maybe some of the bigger players in the rentalverse got cease & desist letters, saw a decline in demand from risk averse potential renters who read about DVC’s heightened scrutiny of rentals, or ran into trouble modifying their existing reservations, & are pivoting to a new MO resulting in more inventory popping up.
Given all of the possible reasons, I don’t think the tea leaves are telling us much w/ there suddenly being more inventory .

 

[Sandisw]

I hope not. That’s gonna be a real bad time for DVC member services then. There were quite a few people saying they were able to grab a room both here, and on FB. Not to mention the ones grabbed by the renters and people who don’t even use message boards. It happened twice in a week at a different variety of resorts.

I hope not either but I do know that it wasn't very fun for those who grabbed them at VGC only to have them canceled on them because it wasn't real availablity.

Just was trying to think of possible reasons. At least in this case, it sounds like it was more than one resort which seems more like someone who had rooms, either DVC or other owners dropped them....

 

[Sandisw]

I tried to look up the revisions to POS at resorts I don't own https://dvcfieldguide.com/
but they don't go back that far. For BWV, it only includes back to 2016....its possible that those that own there can see if they have revisions from further back?

 

[JackosinDIS]

I tried to look up the revisions to POS at resorts I don't own using www.dvcfieldguide.com, but they don't go back that far. For BWV, it only includes back to 2016....its possible that those that own there can see if they have revisions from further back?

The boardwalk POS insert that is provided in my ‘collateral documents’ section only goes back to 12/2016. Although presumably there will have been updates prior to that to accommodate the addition of later resorts.

 

[Sandisw]

The boardwalk POS insert that is provided in my ‘collateral documents’ section only goes back to 12/2016. Although presumably there will have been updates prior to that to accommodate the addition of later resorts.

Thanks! They do them every year with the updated budget. So, it may be they do t have digital before 2016.

At least we know it was removed from BCV and on!

 

[Sandisw]

I got another response from DVC management. I am posting a few quotes from the email:

"The term "family and friends" referenced in the 2011 policy and the booking Terms and Conditions is in the context of providing an example of appropriate "personal use".

"While the Board and Management company have discretion to determine what use or activity reasonably constitutes commerical use, their focus on commerical rentings is on whether there is a pattern of rental behavior"

"Occasional renting is okay and when you rent occasionally in a manner that is not a pattern, you can rent to anyone, it is not limited to family and friends"

"....there is always a chance that the 2011 policy may be changed or updated. Should that occur, the Board and Management company will determine at that time how to best communicate the changes or updates to DVC members"

Since I have have now asked three times about posting the official policy on a public forum, and they have not answered that, I am not comfortable doing so.....

Summary:

1. The 2011 policy is still the official policy of record and that policy included the presumption when you are making more than 20 reservations in a 12 month period you are engaging in commerical behavior.

2. There have been no changes to limit renting to family and friends and that renting to anyone is still allowed as it always has been.

3. Any policy changes will be communicated to DVC members in some way.

*I was asked by some posters there to start a new thread because this one is long and hard to keep track of all I have gotten, but I am going to let the conversation continue here...." I did post a thread with a link directly to this one!

 

[DL1WDW2]

I got another response from DVC management. I am posting a few quotes from the email:

"The term "family and friends" referenced in the 2011 policy and the booking Terms and Conditions is in the context of providing an example of appropriate "personal use".

"While the Board and Management company have discretion to determine what use or activity reasonably constitutes commerical use, their focus on commerical rentings is on whether there is a pattern of rental behavior"

"Occasional renting is okay and when you rent occasionally in a manner that is not a pattern, you can rent to anyone, it is not limited to family and friends"

"....there is always a chance that the 2011 policy may be changed or updated. Should that occur, the Board and Management company will determin at that time how to best communicate the changes or updates to DVC members"

Since I have have now asked three times about posting the official policy on a public forum, and they have not answered that, I am not comfortable doing so.....

Summary:

1. The 2011 policy is still the official policy of record and that policy included the presumption when you are making more than 20 reservations in a 12 month period you are engaging in commerical behavior.

2. There have been no changes to limit renting to family and friends and that renting to anyone is allowed.

3. Any policy changes will be communicated to DVC members in some way.

*I was asked to start a new thread, but I am going to let the conversation continue here...."

Obviously, they have not further defined what "occasional" means in the context of what is officially part of the documents.....so, as owners, we have to try to interpret that and make decisions from there....

Did the disboards ask you to start a new thread or Disney Vacation Club ?

I suggest making plans to attend the Annual Condo Meeting in December this year!
I expect it to be discussed !

 

[Sandisw]

Did the disboards ask you to start a new thread or Disney Vacation Club ?

Poster here asked me to start a new thread with the update because these thread was so long....I will make that clearer!

DVC Management has not communicated anything to me in that way. They have been quite responsive to my requests now!

 

[DL1WDW2]

Poster here asked me to start a new thread with the update because these thread was so long....I will make that clearer!

DVC Management has not communicated anything to me in that way. They have been quite responsive to my requests now!

I think your response confuses me even more.

Also the link in post 847 DVC field guide is not working currently.

 

[Sandisw]

I think your response confuses me even more.

Also the link in post 847 DVC field guide is not working currently.

Fixed post…just pointing out that DVC did not ask me to start a new thread.

 

[VGCgroupie]

I got another response from DVC management. I am posting a few quotes from the email:

"The term "family and friends" referenced in the 2011 policy and the booking Terms and Conditions is in the context of providing an example of appropriate "personal use".

"While the Board and Management company have discretion to determine what use or activity reasonably constitutes commerical use, their focus on commerical rentings is on whether there is a pattern of rental behavior"

"Occasional renting is okay and when you rent occasionally in a manner that is not a pattern, you can rent to anyone, it is not limited to family and friends"

"....there is always a chance that the 2011 policy may be changed or updated. Should that occur, the Board and Management company will determine at that time how to best communicate the changes or updates to DVC members"

Since I have have now asked three times about posting the official policy on a public forum, and they have not answered that, I am not comfortable doing so.....

Summary:

1. The 2011 policy is still the official policy of record and that policy included the presumption when you are making more than 20 reservations in a 12 month period you are engaging in commerical behavior.

2. There have been no changes to limit renting to family and friends and that renting to anyone is still allowed as it always has been.

3. Any policy changes will be communicated to DVC members in some way.

*I was asked by some posters there to start a new thread because this one is long and hard to keep track of all I have gotten, but I am going to let the conversation continue here...." I did post a thread with a link directly to this one!

Thank you for the update. Much appreciated

 

[RivShore]

I got another response from DVC management. I am posting a few quotes from the email:

"The term "family and friends" referenced in the 2011 policy and the booking Terms and Conditions is in the context of providing an example of appropriate "personal use".

"While the Board and Management company have discretion to determine what use or activity reasonably constitutes commerical use, their focus on commerical rentings is on whether there is a pattern of rental behavior"

"Occasional renting is okay and when you rent occasionally in a manner that is not a pattern, you can rent to anyone, it is not limited to family and friends"

"....there is always a chance that the 2011 policy may be changed or updated. Should that occur, the Board and Management company will determine at that time how to best communicate the changes or updates to DVC members"

Since I have have now asked three times about posting the official policy on a public forum, and they have not answered that, I am not comfortable doing so.....

Summary:

1. The 2011 policy is still the official policy of record and that policy included the presumption when you are making more than 20 reservations in a 12 month period you are engaging in commerical behavior.

2. There have been no changes to limit renting to family and friends and that renting to anyone is still allowed as it always has been.

3. Any policy changes will be communicated to DVC members in some way.

*I was asked by some posters there to start a new thread because this one is long and hard to keep track of all I have gotten, but I am going to let the conversation continue here...." I did post a thread with a link directly to this one!

Thanks for keeping us informed Sandy!

To summarize for for those of us not keeping track of this 43 page bouncing ball- the bottom line is DVC management has not changed their definition of commercial use in any of your communications with them, it is still the 2011 policy.

Did you ask and did they reply to a question as to why the CSR's are making it sound very different?

 

[Sandisw]

Thanks for keeping us informed Sandy!

To summarize for for those of us not keeping track of this 43 page bouncing ball- the bottom line is DVC management has not changed their definition of commercial use in any of your communications with them, it is still the 2011 policy.

Did you ask and did they reply to a question as to why the CSR's are making it sound very different?

Now that I got a response, I can share some of what I asked..

I mentioned some getting information from MS that renting to family and friends was all that was allowed.

Asked where I could find this change as it is in none of the documents, if it is an offical change.

I asked how that would fit into the definition of commercial purpose or in line with the offical policy.

I then asked how a change such as this, assuming it was an offical rule change, would not require a vote of owners given what is written in the POS (stated a few different things) and referenced FL 718.111.

I think the response to state that renting to anyone is still allowed was in direct reference to all I asked.

MS appears to be stating things to owners in a way that isn’t untruthful but allowing owners to draw conclusions that something has changed when it has not.

One thing that is important for me is that they reaffirmed that it’s about a pattern of rental activity and that reasonable plays a role.

And, that if things change, including the offical policy, we will be notified in some way.

Now, it could just mean that they update the documents and add them to the website and call it day.

Obviously they clarified that occasional is okay and that as long as that occasional doesn’t develop a pattern, one will be okay.

It still leaves it up to each of us to decide what we think that looks like and act accordingly based on what the offical policy states.

ETA: And yes, the main focus of all my communication is that the 2011 policy is the official policy in play.

 

[Tatebeck]

Unfortunately it seems they like to be as vague as possible most of the time
But maybe they will surprise me and give some clear guidance

Called it. I don't think they really gave us any useful information we didn't already know. They definitely want to keep it vague so they can decide on a case by case basis what the "pattern" looks like

 

[Sandisw]

Called it. I don't think they really gave us any information we didn't already know. They definitely want to keep it vague so they can decide on a case by case basis what the "pattern" looks like

They definitely confirmed that there is no rule to say you can only rent to family and friends, which some have felt MS scripts meant.

They also confirmed that any policy changes will be communicated with owners.

And, we now know that the terms of the POS in reference to patterns is still the focus.

What I can say, after all the back and forth, the big takeaway is that the 2011 policy is what is the offical definition of what constitutes commercial…the pattern.. and that no other documents or definitions exist at this time.

Obviously, that can change but right now, things are status quo in terms of rules, policy and enforcement.

 

[xdan0920]

They definitely confirmed that there is no rule to say you can only rent to family and friends, which some have felt MS scripts meant.

They also confirmed that any policy changes will be communicated with owners.

What I can say, after all the back and forth, the big takeaway is that the 2011 policy is what is the offical definition of what constitutes commercial…the pattern.. and that no other documents or definitions exist at this time.

Obviously, that can change but right now, things are status quo in terms of rules, policy and enforcement.

Right.

So it’s on each member to decide what a pattern is.

It doesn’t ‘have to be’ 20+ reservations. That is just a line in the sand that once you cross, you “should be” investigated.

DVC is free to investigate and ultimately put a halt to any members pattern of rental activity.