Commerical Use Policy Update - New Thread!

[VGCgroupie]

Do you think we get to the point where they ask if it’s a rental and if so for a copy of the contract?

Great question. I think it is a distinct possibility

 

[Sandisw]

But isn’t sort of moot? Meaning any reservation not in the name of the owner is not necessarily a rental. I could send my daughter, neighbor, coworker or I could be renting to a totally stranger.

The rules states that Disney can in their reasonable discretion (or something like that) determine what constitutes commercial renting. But can they also determine when a reservation is a rental?

I don’t think we have seen any wording defining what makes a reservation a rental?

I think we can all agree that a rental is when money exchange hands - but again how would Disney know? As long as they are not enforcing the rules that states members need to inform member services about any rentals I’m not seeing how Disney could enforce a policy about not using banked or borrowed points for rentals.

The contract says owners need a rental agreement and there is nothing in the documents or the law that would prevent DVC for asking owners to submit those to them.

They could also simply add a box for online check in or in person check in where the guest chooses, owner, guest of owner , or this is a rental.

On the other, I think DVC wants to have the flexibility to enforce or not enforce and might even be why they have t changed their offical policy on what constitutes commercial purposes.

Even the example given last year by the board used the example of needing to rent because you have points expiring.

I’ll have to check my own resort POS to see if I can find that language.

I definitely don’t remember reading the other day in the multi site POS.

 

[Sandisw]

They could, but it would have many "civilian casualties" I think this is what @Sandisw was reporting from the meeting on how they did not want unintended consequences from enforcement.

A "this is a rental" checkbox and requiring you to upload a scan of the rental contract would go a long way.

I think that is the biggest take from the meeting for me…they said they wanted to go after those owners who were renting commercially but the rest was all about being cautious about changes for your average owner for both this and the concept of walking.

And so far, all we have seen from them is an effort to remind owners that owning DVC is for personal use vs owning to become a commercial enterprise, practice or purpose.

At some point, if no additional changes happen, it may be a clue to where they want to go in all of this.

 

[Cyberc1978]

Even the example given last year by the board used the example of needing to rent because you have points expiring.

If the board is saying it’s allowed to rent if you have expiring points then they more or less green lightning using banked/borrowed points for the rentals.

 

[Cyberc1978]

At some point, if no additional changes happen, it may be a clue to where they want to go in all of this.

If nothing more is happening - what clue would that be?
If nothing is happening to the LLC’s then we have a status quo. I know we won’t se DVC releasing a statement saying they have done something to the LLC’ but if we don’t see a decline in the 1000’ of rentals then the same question will come up during the annual or quarterly meetings.

 

[lowlight]

I was also wondering what was happening and thought maybe BWV refurb released all those rooms but went and checked the refurb was noted as fully complete in January so that wasn’t it.

According to many on FB, this happened again, just yesterday, with whole months opening up at VGF and other resorts that weren't part of the openings that I saw a few days ago. I would say it's enforcement, except as you mentioned earlier, a lot of those hard to get rooms went right to the usual suspects websites for rental.

 

[jennypenny]

I don't understand about the availability ... do you think spec rentals are being cancelled because of crack downs, but then other players are picking up the open rooms?

 

[lowlight]

I don't understand about the availability ... do you think spec rentals are being cancelled because of crack downs, but then other players are picking up the open rooms?

I have no idea if it's spec rental enforcement, or if it's a chunk of rooms coming off of refurb that are filling waitlists, but it's very concentrated. I'd imagine if that were the scenario, it would be much more sporadic. So I don't know what's causing it, but I do know that the familiar players are picking up the open rooms right away because I see them for (new listing) rent.

 

[Brianstl]

I have no idea if it's spec rental enforcement, or if it's a chunk of rooms coming off of refurb that are filling waitlists, but it's very concentrated. I'd imagine if that were the scenario, it would be much more sporadic. So I don't know what's causing it, but I do know that the familiar players are picking up the open rooms right away because I see them for (new listing) rent.

Probably picking them up with one of their multiple LLCs that haven't been smacked yet.

 

[jennypenny]

Thanks. If the availability is coming from enforcement and then the rooms are being picked up by other rental outfits immediately, it would indicate (to me) that this is indeed a big problem. Big enough, at least, for DVC to pursue forcefully.

At first I wondered why they didn't just announce a clear policy, but maybe they are going to take this approach until they can see a marked reduction in spec rentals and improved availability. They might not know where the line in the sand is yet.

 

[Mouseforward]

I think it is all wishful thinking, no evidence so far. If it were enforcement of commercial renters, we would see BW standard view studios, and AK value rooms open up, not high-point, low-rental-profit VGF resort studios that are usually available at 7 months.

 

[lowlight]

I think it is all wishful thinking, no evidence so far. If it were enforcement of commercial renters, we would see BW standard view studios, and AK value rooms open up, not high-point, low-rental-profit VGF resort studios that are usually available at 7 months.

We aren’t allowed to talk specifics. There were definitely many low point high value rooms at high value times. The availability that was reported yesterday I am only going on reports seen on FB, which mentioned a variety of resorts, but VGF being the entire two month period. Again, i have no idea if this was enforcement, but I did witness it first hand earlier this week and it was not what you are oddly trying to frame it as.

 

[lowlight]

Thanks. If the availability is coming from enforcement and then the rooms are being picked up by other rental outfits immediately, it would indicate (to me) that this is indeed a big problem. Big enough, at least, for DVC to pursue forcefully.

At first I wondered why they didn't just announce a clear policy, but maybe they are going to take this approach until they can see a marked reduction in spec rentals and improved availability. They might not know where the line in the sand is yet.

I have a renter that I consider a bellwether, as they are the most prolific spec renter I've ever seen, by rarity of units and also quantity. I haven't seen them so much as blink, so I don't know what to think.

 

[VGCgroupie]

According to many on FB, this happened again, just yesterday, with whole months opening up at VGF and other resorts that weren't part of the openings that I saw a few days ago. I would say it's enforcement, except as you mentioned earlier, a lot of those hard to get rooms went right to the usual suspects websites for rental.

I can only hope this a "bait car" scenario. Is DVC that smart?

 

[Tatebeck]

If the board is saying it’s allowed to rent if you have expiring points then they more or less green lightning using banked/borrowed points for the rentals.

"Expiring" points could simply mean current year points that are past the banking window. Unless they specifically said renting banked/borrowed is okay then it doesn't matter.

And even then the contracts state that what is in the contract takes precedent over what is verbally told to you by DVC employees. So even if someone at DVC "said" it was okay at some point, if the contracts say that it is against the rules, they can enforce the contract.

 

[Mommb]

If the board is saying it’s allowed to rent if you have expiring points then they more or less green lightning using banked/borrowed points for the rentals.

Allowing rentals of expiring points does not require allowing rentals of banked or borrowed points.

If owners know 4 months before the end of their use year that they won't be able to use their points, they can bank them. They then have 16 months to either schedule a trip for themselves or find a friend or family member to use the banked points.

If, on the other hand, owners plan to take a trip in the last 4 months of their use year and then life happens, they might not have time to find a friend or family member to use the points, and might need to rent the points to use them before they expire. This is especially true if the life event had a cost (such as medical expenses) and the money from the point rental would be useful for unexpected expenses.

Points should be borrowed only if they are going to be used. While it is possible that something comes up that requires cancelling a trip with borrowed points, losing the borrowed points at the end of the use year is a known risk when points are borrowed.

 

[Sandisw]

If nothing more is happening - what clue would that be?
If nothing is happening to the LLC’s then we have a status quo. I know we won’t se DVC releasing a statement saying they have done something to the LLC’ but if we don’t see a decline in the 1000’ of rentals then the same question will come up during the annual or quarterly meetings.

I was referring to changes to the policies and rules to what constitutes commercial.

So far, they have made no changes to any of that. Yes, you have to affirm everytime you book it’s personal use.

But, you can still book what you want, when you want, and make modifications the same way you have always been allowed to do it.

The only updated language we have seen to the T and C that references renting is that “frequently or regularly renting” is not personal use.

DVC however, has not given any updates that is being defined or enforced differently than what is says in the 2011 policy, which we know is still the offical policy.

We are almost 2 months since the roll out of this and DVC has made no more moves.

They certainly could still happen, but it would seem odd that they updated T and C, and released them if they plan further updates to those.

Now, HRR is where we would see any booking and modifications rule changes, so that could see be changing…but the longer we go without it?

Implies to me the chances they are going to do more goes down.

I just not convinced that even if enforcement is happening we are going to see things about it to the degree some think we will.

Plus, we still need to look at each individual POS and multisite POS for what rules apply to each resort.

If OKW says banked points can’t be used for rentals but no other resort does, then it doesn’t apply.

 

[Sandisw]

According to many on FB, this happened again, just yesterday, with whole months opening up at VGF and other resorts that weren't part of the openings that I saw a few days ago. I would say it's enforcement, except as you mentioned earlier, a lot of those hard to get rooms went right to the usual suspects websites for rental.

Could it also have been DVC releasing rooms it pulled for cash and then putting them back?

 

[Tatebeck]

Could it also have been DVC releasing rooms it pulled for cash and then putting them back?

That's what I was thinking was possible. If they aren't renting rooms for cash very well right now then they could release them back to owners. And those rooms would be spread out over many resorts

 

[Sandisw]

"Expiring" points could simply mean current year points that are past the banking window. Unless they specifically said renting banked/borrowed is okay then it doesn't matter.

And even then the contracts state that what is in the contract takes precedent over what is verbally told to you by DVC employees. So even if someone at DVC "said" it was okay at some point, if the contracts say that it is against the rules, they can enforce the contract.

It was the board who stated that and they are the ones who make and enforce the rules,

But yes, they could enforce it for OKW because that restriction wasn’t tied to commercial in anyway.

It is a limitation to renting included from the start. I haven’t had time to check other POS documents yet to see if it is there or if it was removed from the other resorts.