Commerical Use Policy Update - New Thread!

[Brian Noble]

If it is run like any other call center (and I can't imagine it is not) there are some very strict metrics for how many calls you serve per hour*, and what your overall rating is. For the "main" call center there are probably also some secondary metrics about how much you sell, but that's less likely for DVC as I rarely have a MS CM try to upsell me on e.g. the dining plan.

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*: This is one of the reasons why call center employees tend to make up answers for things they don't know---they need to get you off the phone as quickly as they can so they can get to the next call. Late stage capitalism. It's a thing.

 

[Girlstar30]

If it is run like any other call center (and I can't imagine it is not) there are some very strict metrics for how many calls you serve per hour*, and what your overall rating is. For the "main" call center there are probably also some secondary metrics about how much you sell, but that's less likely for DVC as I rarely have a MS CM try to upsell me on e.g. the dining plan.

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*: This is one of the reasons why call center employees tend to make up answers for things they don't know---they need to get you off the phone as quickly as they can so they can get to the next call. Late stage capitalism. It's a thing.

Yep numbers over quality

 

[Brianstl]

I can’t imagine that no matter what DVC does that it won’t involve common sense when it comes to evaluating a membership.

So, if they see an owner who appears to have rented all one year but it isn’t a pattern, then I can see them not doing anything because that is the exact example they gave.

The dues things could still be used with the 20 reservations rule for evaluating the first 20.

IMO, they are not mutually exclusive. However, I do think that as long as a policy exists with a definition, that is DVCs offical statement to owners as what they can use as a guideline.

If some owners have gotten the dues metric from MS, I believe owners should keep that in the back of their mind too.

Using points for commercial purposes has always been against the rules. It would be nice if they would give you permission to post their original reply to you so we could actually see their whole definition of commercial purposes. Because what is posted in the first post list an example of what is defined as "commercial purposes", but isn't technically a definition of how they interpret the term.

 

[Sandisw]

Disney should train their employees better, they work for the company and are relaying information on a chat transcript that can easily be sent to a member thru email and retained as documentation that they made a good faith effort to understand the policy

The thing to remember is that they answer questions asked and in that conversation, they have accurate info.

You can book as many reservations as you want. The POS and rules allow that, including the Commercial Use Policy…

However, once you want to go above 20, then you may have to discuss things with DVC.

Anyone who is not renting points to a high degree should have no problem supporting to DVC the reservations are for personal use.

What is now clear is that the 2011 policy is still the offical policy for commercial use.

And, honestly, if the issue has been a lack of enforcement of this policy, and now they do, all those owners who have been renting above 20 but ignores will be caught up.

Nothing the board said in December or any actions by DVC to date has indicated they are going after average owners who may be renting at a level that doesn’t rise to a commercial level.

Obviously, DVC can change rules and policies any time…that is nothing new…

We will need to wait to see if we get any reports of what enforcement looks like, or if we get updated rules from DVC.

Even the updated T and C do not conflict with the commercial use policy still in place.

So, owners should monitor the website for updated documents for changes to HRR or additional updates to T and C.

 

[TCRAIG]

Hope this helps:
I currently have 28 active reservations - most have my name on them but not all - I’ve hear not even a whisper from DVC and in fact - they made my last 2 reservations when my waitlists came thru that they needed to call me first before officially booking and didn’t even say anything when they booked them…
Now I know - just because they haven’t said/done anything about my 28 reservations - doesn’t mean they won’t- but I really do feel like DVC will be very very targeted in their approach to curbing what they consider Commercial Use and that it won’t include people like me with a lot of points and bookings.

 

[HyperspaceMountainPilot]

View attachment 984546

Very interesting that we have another CM saying “friends and family” as opposed to guests generally. Many people here seem to want to assume that it means the CMs have no idea what they are talking about as opposed to the increasing chorus of consistent responses being the result of a rule change.

Of course, it’s all meaningless unless/until Disney actually takes action.

 

[Mouseforward]

Obviously, DVC can change rules and policies any time…that is nothing new…

Provided the rules do not conflict with the founding documents

 

[Sandisw]

Using points for commercial purposes has always been against the rules. It would be nice if they would give you permission to post their original reply to you so we could actually see their whole definition of commercial purposes. Because what is posted in the first post list an example of what is defined as "commercial purposes", but isn't technically a definition of how they interpret the term.

Comfortable posting a few screenshots.

Here is the wording for enforcement.....it states that DVC will fail to confirm (or cancel) any reservation found to be in violation of the multiple reservations rule.....here is how the multiple reservations rule is definied and it states that reservations in excess (bolded by me) of 20 shall be presumed to be a violation.

We know, based on actions by DVC in the past, that they interepreted this to allow any and all reservations 20 and below to stay. Whether they will continue to interpret it that way? Who knows but until we have something from DVC that states they will be doing things differently, owners will have to make their own decisions on how to interpret the policy.

 

[Sandisw]

Very interesting that we have another CM saying “friends and family” as opposed to guests generally. Many people here seem to want to assume that it means the CMs have no idea what they are talking about as opposed to the increasing chorus of consistent responses being the result of a rule change.

Of course, it’s all meaningless unless/until Disney actually takes action.

I just looked at the HRR and the last updated as 12/2024, and nothing there....it uses the word guests.



Guests can certianly be family and friends, but they can also be renters...and, as I shared, MS has told me that as long as you confirm that the reservation falls under the T & C for personal use, then there has been no change to the rules for booking or modifications.

**See my post below for some interesting info!!

ETA: This is still on the website so if there was a rule change, this has not yet been updated.

Q: As a Disney Vacation Club Member, can I rent my Vacation Points?
A.
Members may rent their Vacation Points. However, the use of your Vacation Points for commercial purposes is expressly prohibited. Commercial purpose includes a pattern of rental activity or other occupancy by a Member that the Board of Condominium Association, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice.

 

[Sandisw]

Hope this helps:
I currently have 28 active reservations - most have my name on them but not all - I’ve hear not even a whisper from DVC and in fact - they made my last 2 reservations when my waitlists came thru that they needed to call me first before officially booking and didn’t even say anything when they booked them…
Now I know - just because they haven’t said/done anything about my 28 reservations - doesn’t mean they won’t- but I really do feel like DVC will be very very targeted in their approach to curbing what they consider Commercial Use and that it won’t include people like me with a lot of points and bookings.

Thanks for another data point! For all you know, DVC has determined that what they are seeing on your account, even though you are over 20, doesn't appear to be memberships that are for commerical purposes, and why no contact has been made.

Based on what I was communicated to me by MS, the system somehow identifies memberships for potential violations and business affairs division reviews and takes it from there.

She did not know what would get owners flagged because she said, that is not MS's job....there is job is to confirm any reservations in which an owner agrees it is for personal use, and not if they refuse to do so.

Just like I booked a "rental' by saying that it matched the T & C for personal use....didn't rise to the level of being either regular or frequent....no issues with them booking.

 

[Sandisw]

Provided the rules do not conflict with the founding documents

Very true.....but, we do know that the board has not yet decided to update the official commercial use policy and that when they updated the T & C, in June, they did not make any booking/modification/rule changes, nor has there been a change in owners being allowed to book any reservation, any type of reservation, modify dates, or change lead guest names.

Could they still have more changes coming? Sure....but until then, we all have to go by what is in place...

 

[Sandisw]

Interesting Chat I just had.

I am sharing the contents of the chat. They have definitely been given the information to use "family and friends" with renting and she shared some information that is new to me, but at least I have something in writing about offsetting dues now.

One interesting note....when I asked her if the information about renting to family and friends meant that I could no longer rent to someone I didn't know, she said she shared all the text she has..and did not answer....just said "you just have to agree to the terms" and not based on her interpretation....

Based on this chat:
Renting to family and friends is definitely still allowed, as long as it is infrequent (with no definition of what infrequent means).

Renting to someone you do not personally know may or may not be still allowed.....she couldn't say yes or no because she has no official answer to give.

And, if they are not allowing CM's to answer the question, my guess is that they don't want to answer it either....

Here you go!

You: Hi Donna
Donna: Welcome Home and Happy TI-GG-ER Thursday!

I am thinking of Tigger and his bounce today.

I would be happy to help you
Donna: Hello Sandi
You: I know that renting vacation points is currently a big topic. And want to confirm that the FAQ on the website is still accurate

You: Q: As a Disney Vacation Club Member, can I rent my Vacation Points? A. Members may rent their Vacation Points. However, the use of your Vacation Points for commercial purposes is expressly prohibited. Commercial purpose includes a pattern of rental activity or other occupancy by a Member that the Board of Condominium Association, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice.
Donna: That is the explanation that I would offer you, Sandi.

You: Thank you!

Donna: Let's say you were not able to book for a Use Year, you can book for family or friends as a rental and use the cash to pay for your Annual Dues (bold is mine)

You: To confirm then that DVC will no longer allow me to rent my points to someone who I may not personally know?

You: Because the FAQ does not use only "family and friends"

Donna: I only have the text to send you that I have already sent. Here is what you have to say yes or know to every time you book or modify a reservation.
Donna: By booking and/or modifying this reservation, you are agreeing to the Disney Vacation Club's Terms and Conditions. Do you confirm that this reservation is for your personal use only?

Donna: Q1. How does Disney Vacation Club define “Personal Use”?
"Personal Use” may include enjoying the benefits of a Disney Vacation Club Membership with family or extending the use of any reservation points to friends and family on occasion. Additionally, “Personal Use” means a Member does not regularly, or frequently rent or sell reservations booked using their Membership.
You: I have a complete document of the T & C and it does not say that rentals can only be family and friends. I get that you are sharing the information you have been given, but since its inconsistent with what I am reading, I will reach out to DVC leadership for clarification because if it has changed to "family and friends only" the FAQs and documents need to be updated

You: Can I get a copy of this chat?

Donna: You would only need to agree to the Terms and Conditions you see online and not to my interpretation based on your questions (bold is mine)

Donna: Q2. How does Disney Vacation Club define “Commercial Purposes”?
DVC defines “Commercial Purposes” as Members engaging in the commercial enterprise of regularly or frequently selling or renting reservations booked using their Membership. Additionally, the use of regular rental or resale advertising, maintaining a rental or resale website or frequent purchase and resale of Ownership Interests whether in the name of the Member(s) or those related to such Member(s) is considered commercial purposes.

Donna: Q3. Can a Member rent Vacation Points to friends and family?
Renting Vacation Points to friends and family is only allowed if it is an infrequent practice. Members are not permitted to frequently or regularly rent or sell reservations booked using their Membership.

Donna: That is all of the information I have to offer
You: Thank you! That certainly helps clarify things for me!

 

[Brianstl]

Comfortable posting a few screenshots.

Here is the wording for enforcement.....it states that DVC will fail to confirm (or cancel) any reservation found to be in violation of the multiple reservations rule.....here is how the multiple reservations rule is definied and it states that reservations in excess (bolded by me) of 20 shall be presumed to be a violation.

We know, based on actions by DVC in the past, that they interepreted this to allow any and all reservations 20 and below to stay. Whether they will continue to interpret it that way? Who knows but until we have something from DVC that states they will be doing things differently, owners will have to make their own decisions on how to interpret the policy.

View attachment 984665

View attachment 984656

So they didn't send you a definition of "commercial purposes" like you requested, but sent you the definition of the "multiple reservation rule"?

 

[Sandisw]

So they didn't send you a definition of "commercial purposes" like you requested, but sent you the definition of the "multiple reservation rule"?

No, they sent me the entire policy which is about 4 pages in length.....but, as I said, I am not comfortable uploading the entire set of documents to a public forum without getting permission from DVC that I can legally do that.

Since the POS says that owners who want this must request it for review, I want to be sure. I just shared a few of the actual snippets of it for you because you asked about Enforcement...and that is what it says in relation to that.

It is basically the 2008 policy that people have seen before with just a few updated changes....but, based on my current chat, its clear to me that DVC wants some level of ambiguity so that each owner is reading and interpreting the rules.

They certainly want owners to walk away from conversations with MS that you can only rent to family and friends...but, they don't define it that way in the current commerical use policy, they don't define it that way in the updated T & C, nor is it defined that way the FAQs on the website.

IMO, its telling that the CM could not directly answer the question about no longer being allowed to rent to someone you don't personally know.

If this is a change in the rules, and they are saying now only family and friends, then there is no reason for the CM not to have had an answer to share....

ETA: anyone who wants the documents should really send a letter to DVC to get them.

 

[Sandisw]

Want to add that even the info given to me today via chat would still work with the offical commercial use policy. That info can co exist with the 20 reservations threshold, assuming they don’t change that in the near future.

 

[Girlstar30]

What im getting is that you can rent to anyone you want but they want you to think you cant so they wont answer that, correct me if im wrong please

 

[Girlstar30]

I will be chatting with them tomorrow and asking the same questions, I really dont think they can enforce things they're not even answering if its allowed or not

 

[VGCgroupie]

I will be chatting with them tomorrow and asking the same questions, I really dont think they can enforce things they're not even answering if its allowed or not

Please let us know what they say.

 

[Girlstar30]

Please let us know what they say.

You know i will!! Prepare for a whole Lotta nothing

 

[Sandisw]

What im getting is that you can rent to anyone you want but they want you to think you cant so they wont answer that, correct me if im wrong please

I’d say that they are making an effort to remind owners that DVC is for personal use, using the words family and friends to help support that message, and when renting comes up only using it in relation to them.

You could always rent to family and frriends but what they appear to want is for people to draw the conclusion that it’s only family and friends and you can no longer rent to others.

If renting to someone you don’t know is no longer allowed, due to a rule change, then the CM should have been able to answer that question when directly asked.

And she could not… because DVC hasn’t officially made it a new rule.

I feel bad for them though because they are following scripts given to them for how to answer.