Commerical Use Policy Update - New Thread!

[ShaneDJ]

People keep using the terms “commercial renting” and “commercial enterprise”, but the term used in what Sandi got today was “commercial use” which isn’t exactly the same thing. “Commercial use” would be any renting for a profit.

Doesn’t matter if it is a business, a small contract owner or how often you do it. They used that term because if they finally take action, that is what they are going to take action on.

Per what Sandi has been told by MS:

• Renting out points is allowed (for "personal" use)
• You can have up to 20 reservations per 12-month period
• If your rental "profit" only amounts to your annual dues, then that is allowed (and is seen as a "no profit" situation by DVC leadership)

 

[Brianstl]

Per what Sandi has been told by MS:

• Renting out points is allowed (for "personal" use)
• You can have up to 20 reservations per 12-month period
• If your rental "profit" only amounts to your annual dues, then that is allowed (and is seen as a "no profit" situation by DVC leadership)

What Sandi got today makes me think that they won’t necessarily be waiting for the 20 rentals before they take action for what they define as profit renting.

 

[Sandisw]

This is the part I have an issue with. Say you never rent your points but life happens and one year you need to rent out your 100 VGF points and that's all you own. This implies that the most you could rent them for would be the cost of dues, which is $7.93 pp. That seems a little ridiculous.

Or are they saying if someone has a pattern of renting points year over year to cover dues, it wouldn't be allowed?

I still think this one would be hard to enforce since it's not in writing and doesn't fit what they've defined as commercial renting.

I can’t imagine that no matter what DVC does that it won’t involve common sense when it comes to evaluating a membership.

So, if they see an owner who appears to have rented all one year but it isn’t a pattern, then I can see them not doing anything because that is the exact example they gave.

The dues things could still be used with the 20 reservations rule for evaluating the first 20.

IMO, they are not mutually exclusive. However, I do think that as long as a policy exists with a definition, that is DVCs offical statement to owners as what they can use as a guideline.

If some owners have gotten the dues metric from MS, I believe owners should keep that in the back of their mind too.

 

[Mouseforward]

What Sandi got today makes me think that they won’t necessarily be waiting for the 20 rentals before they take action for what they define as profit renting.

But lets be real , Have they taken any significant action in in the 14 years this policy has been in place?

 

[Sandisw]

What Sandi got today makes me think that they won’t necessarily be waiting for the 20 rentals before they take action for what they define as profit renting.

I don’t quite interpret it that way. I think the words used about different terms was in direct response to me asking them to confirm that the dues info I was given was accurate. Basically, it’s was from time to time you may here these words related to commercial renting because the MS supervisor used them with me.

The 20 reservations rule counts all reservations across all memberships. So they don’t all have to be rentals.

But, the offical policy does not limit, or define what types can be in the first 20, unless you want MORE than 20 and I personally think that’s an important element of the policy.

Until DVC comes out with something different or we get reports that DVC has decided to interpret the policy in a way that they do cancel reservations or prevent reservations before reaching 20, then I plan to follow it the way I understand it.

Others may see it differently and make a different choice for sure.

 

[hcortesis]

Screen shots from my conversation a few days ago.

 

[Chuck S]

My understanding is there is no limit, but 20 reservations will trigger something that has MS looking at the reservations...as long as the owner is the primary (or a member of his immediate family at the same address) listed on all the reservations, no problem. And if I were a person renting the reservation, I sure as heck would not want an owner listed as primary on a reservation that I rent, if for no other reason than privacy and security. Once triggered, DVC may quietly consider other factors, like was the reservation where the owner is not a primary made during the resort priority booking window, is the owner traveling at the same time to the same resort and do the reservations have a "Traveling With" notation. There are a lot of nuances that may not be listed as part of the policy being shared with members, but that would make common sense when determining if an owner meets a common sense definition of "Commercial Renter." I think DVC is only likely sharing the basics of what may trigger them to start looking into an owner, as there are also the more subtle things for them to consider at their discretion, and they will want to be careful in cancelling someone's large group family trip taking two or three concurrent reservations. I've had group trips where there were two to three rooms booked on my points. From two studios to two two-bedrooms and a one bedroom. Those are certainly things that DVC Needs to consider in an investigation before taking any action against an owner, for both legal and PR reasons. Just imagine the social media blow up if DVC cancelled an owners big family reunion reservations.

 

[xdan0920]

I know others disagree with me on this point, but I believe that DVC can’t actually cancel until someone gets to 20…or stop someone from making less than 20 because of the wording

Got it.

So if you are right, any and everyone is free to do whatever they want, as long as they stay under 20. AND Disney CAN'T do anything about it. Literally can not.

So, we continue on the same path.

 

[VGCgroupie]

View attachment 984504

Screen shots from my conversation a few days ago.

What did Alanna say after your last question?

 

[hcortesis]

 

[Wakey]

Thanks for the summary Sandi.

I am concerned about 'walking'- if you walk and hit 20 reservations, will this mean they suspect you of renting- surely not?

This year we have a heck of a lot of reservations, because we had nearly 700 points. So far I have done one little walk already, have a second reservation, have a few cancelled reservations, have one booking I am going to make for a close friend, one other for another friend (we didnt go last year so have a lot of points) am about to book a large family trip on a split stay, and am booking Vero. I am concerned that some of these other trips if I walk them I may hit 20 triggers, even though over 10 are just walking.

As to Alanna above - it is clear they are not training the staff properly, do they even know their own rules higher up? Suspect not.

 

[VGCgroupie]

Thanks for the summary Sandi.

I am concerned about 'walking'- if you walk and hit 20 reservations, will this mean they suspect you of renting- surely not?

This year we have a heck of a lot of reservations, because we had nearly 700 points. So far I have done one little walk already, have a second reservation, have a few cancelled reservations, have one booking I am going to make for a close friend, one other for another friend (we didnt go last year so have a lot of points) am about to book a large family trip on a split stay, and am booking Vero. I am concerned that some of these other trips if I walk them I may hit 20 triggers, even though over 10 are just walking.

As to Alanna above - it is clear they are not training the staff properly, do they even know their own rules higher up? Suspect not.

Nobody knows if cancellations count as part of your 20. I sure hope not

 

[Tatebeck]

View attachment 984546

You asked the question incorrectly. And even if you asked it correctly it wouldn't apply to you since you specifically said that they were all for personal use and didn't say that you were trying to rent.

Then the CM you got is either new enough/ a low enough level to not know the details of all of the rules since it is not something they usually deal with, or just went along with your incorrectly worded question so they didn't have to deal with talking about renting since you didn't bring it up

There is no limit to reservations if they are all proven to be for personal use. It clearly says that in the rule.

I'm not sure if you were trying to say that there is no multiple reservation rule because of this chat or not... butI would trust officially worded email responses from higher ups and/or mail sent in response to certified letters rather than the understanding/knowledge of an entry level chat CM

 

[AstroBlasters]

Thanks for the summary Sandi.

I am concerned about 'walking'- if you walk and hit 20 reservations, will this mean they suspect you of renting- surely not?

This year we have a heck of a lot of reservations, because we had nearly 700 points. So far I have done one little walk already, have a second reservation, have a few cancelled reservations, have one booking I am going to make for a close friend, one other for another friend (we didnt go last year so have a lot of points) am about to book a large family trip on a split stay, and am booking Vero. I am concerned that some of these other trips if I walk them I may hit 20 triggers, even though over 10 are just walking.

As to Alanna above - it is clear they are not training the staff properly, do they even know their own rules higher up? Suspect not.

But a walk just modifies a current reservation…. it’s not a whole new reservation…. right?

 

[Sandisw]

Got it.

So if you are right, any and everyone is free to do whatever they want, as long as they stay under 20. AND Disney CAN'T do anything about it. Literally can not.

So, we continue on the same path.

I did not say DVC can’t do anything because they have the ability to set the policy and change it as they see fit.

Right now, they have chosen not to update their offical policy for commercial purposes.

As long as that is the policy that exists, and what DVC is giving to owners, when owners ask for it, then that is what we have to follow.

If they decide to update it, then we follow whatever the new policy exists.

But, as of today, all they have done is update T and C to clarify personal use, and are reminding owners that the purpose of DVC is personal not commercial.

They have said there will be enhanced enforcement which means that those who are violating this policy across all memberships should be targeted.

However, you are correct that nothing prevents DVC from allowing owners to have up to 20 rentals on all their memberships that could be in the names of others and not consider it a violation.

That is how it has always been enforced and until we get reports from others, or DVC themselves that they plan to take a different approach or interpretation of enforcement. people need to evaluate things on their own.

ETA: I have also said that nothing prevents DVC from monitoring below 20 and putting an owner on notice that they have concerns about the activity they are seeing…and I can potentially see that.

 

[Sandisw]

Thanks for the summary Sandi.

I am concerned about 'walking'- if you walk and hit 20 reservations, will this mean they suspect you of renting- surely not?

This year we have a heck of a lot of reservations, because we had nearly 700 points. So far I have done one little walk already, have a second reservation, have a few cancelled reservations, have one booking I am going to make for a close friend, one other for another friend (we didnt go last year so have a lot of points) am about to book a large family trip on a split stay, and am booking Vero. I am concerned that some of these other trips if I walk them I may hit 20 triggers, even though over 10 are just walking.

As to Alanna above - it is clear they are not training the staff properly, do they even know their own rules higher up? Suspect not.

Walking is completely different topic.

You can make as many reservations as you want so what the CM stated is true. However, when you go over 20 in a rolling 12 month period, then the Commericial Use Policy comes into play.

To keep more than 20, you have to prove to DVCs satisfaction that the first 20 are for yourself, family and friends and if you can not, then any in excess of 20 shall be presumed by DVC "to be use of vacations accomodations for commerical purposes" and the policy states those reservations can be canceled (if booked) or not confirmed by MS>

If you have more than 20 and DVC is satisfied that you aren’t in it for commercial purposes, then you won't be impacted. It will always be up to DVC to determine whether the actvitiy on your account is commerical or not.

There is nothing in this policy or the POS that would even count a canceled reservation in the same way it would an active one....so, the 20 reservations threshold language appears to apply to those still booked.

I also think that DVC won't ever make hard and fast rules that apply to everyone and that the evaluation will be case by case if a review is triggered because it says that if you have more than 20 or want to make more than 20, you have the ability to satisfy to DVC that you are not in it for commerical purposes.

All we know for sure is that this policy from 2011 is still the official definition for commerical purposes and that as of today, DVC has done nothing to change it, nor have they changed any other policies/rules in place.

Basically, if you know you have more then 20 in any rolling 12 month period, be prepared to discuss it with DVC...and be able to support that your reservations that are not for you do not rise to a level to be seen as a commerical enterprise (which is the word used in the official documents I was sent, which, as I said, will post if I get permission from DVC to share publicly).

In the end, its all up to DVC in terms of identifying owners they feel are using their membership for commerical purposes and not a personal one, what and how they enforce it....but, as long as a written policy exists, and that is the only written policy they are providing owners, then that is what owners have as guidance to use when making reservations.

 

[Girlstar30]

View attachment 984546

I would have said so are you saying its not allowed to rent your points to someone that is not a friend or family? I am just trying to get clarification so that I am within the rules and I thought that Florida law allowed for timeshare rentals to whomever the owner feels comfortable renting to?

 

[Girlstar30]

Thanks for the summary Sandi.

I am concerned about 'walking'- if you walk and hit 20 reservations, will this mean they suspect you of renting- surely not?

This year we have a heck of a lot of reservations, because we had nearly 700 points. So far I have done one little walk already, have a second reservation, have a few cancelled reservations, have one booking I am going to make for a close friend, one other for another friend (we didnt go last year so have a lot of points) am about to book a large family trip on a split stay, and am booking Vero. I am concerned that some of these other trips if I walk them I may hit 20 triggers, even though over 10 are just walking.

As to Alanna above - it is clear they are not training the staff properly, do they even know their own rules higher up? Suspect not.

Disney should train their employees better, they work for the company and are relaying information on a chat transcript that can easily be sent to a member thru email and retained as documentation that they made a good faith effort to understand the policy

 

[Brian Noble]

I hear you, but these people are working in a phone-center sweatshop for what is probably not much more than minimum wage. There aren't going to be a lot of career folks there---the turnover has to be high, and the system is not exactly simple.

 

[Girlstar30]

I hear you, but these people are working in a phone-center sweatshop for what is probably not much more than minimum wage. There aren't going to be a lot of career folks there---the turnover has to be high, and the system is not exactly simple.

The turnover and firing is high for entry level Disney cast members.

I wonder if they still use the ridiculous point system for firing people or if they still classify them as "Casual Regular " while expecting them to work more than fulltime (10+ hours daily) to screw them out benefits. I know from experience.