Christian values

[just4today]

This is something that has been nagging at me through the past months, as the election hyperbole is ramped up. I've seen many examples of people calling upon others to act in accordance with the "Christian values" this country was founded upon, especially with regard to helping out people who are less fortunate. Yet, some of these people are the same ones who are against legislating morality and having others' Christian views forced upon them.

When did Christianity become an a la carte menu from which we (collective) could pick and choose what suits us? Why is it OK to call upon others to behave in a Christian manner for some things, but not others? For example, isn't government welfare, whether it be food stamps, housing, EIC, or any other benefit that hasn't been earned, a form of government mandated charity? If so, why is that acceptable when other forms of government mandated moral behavior are rejected?

I am not interested in debating the merits of particular Christian doctrines. I am not interested in posting scriptures here and arguing about their validity. I am just puzzled by the apparent contradiction. I find it interesting to look at the various lines and gray areas that exist, and the arguments that are used to justify thinking.

 

[heatherleigh]

Just4, I noticed the same thing today as I was browsing through threads. I was puzzled as well. The same people who scream that we need to keep religion separate, will throw religion in there as a means to further their agenda. It is strange. There are other ways to make your point w/out being hypocritical.

 

[just4today]

I'm sure I could be misinterpreting a lot of what I'm reading, but it seems like many are saying:

"I want the government to take money from you and give it to other people who don't have as much because that is the right (Christian, moral) thing to do."

and

"I don't want the government to tell me I can't have an abortion (get married to someone of the same sex), or to allow others to pray in school (put up Christmas decorations in public places) because the government has no business forcing Christian values upon me."

Again, I'm not here to debate the nuances of Christian doctrine. This is about the acceptance of Christian values in one area, and rejection of Christian values in other areas.

 

[suzanna1066@comcast.]

How about "I want Roe v. Wade overturned because it is murder but I am pro Capital Punishment"

Or "I want this country governed on Christian principles but do not think healthcare is a right nor should I pay higher taxes because that is redistributing wealth".

 

[ChrisFL]

This is something that has been nagging at me through the past months, as the election hyperbole is ramped up. I've seen many examples of people calling upon others to act in accordance with the "Christian values" this country was founded upon, especially with regard to helping out people who are less fortunate. Yet, some of these people are the same ones who are against legislating morality and having others' Christian views forced upon them.

When did Christianity become an a la carte menu from which we (collective) could pick and choose what suits us? Why is it OK to call upon others to behave in a Christian manner for some things, but not others? For example, isn't government welfare, whether it be food stamps, housing, EIC, or any other benefit that hasn't been earned, a form of government mandated charity? If so, why is that acceptable when other forms of government mandated moral behavior are rejected?

I am not interested in debating the merits of particular Christian doctrines. I am not interested in posting scriptures here and arguing about their validity. I am just puzzled by the apparent contradiction. I find it interesting to look at the various lines and gray areas that exist, and the arguments that are used to justify thinking.

What's funny is that everyone has different ideas about what "Christian values" are to begin with. Bringing that kind of discussion into a political one is just looking for even more dissenting views and opinions

I thought that America was founded on freedom of/from religion?

 

[Kath2003]

I'm sure I could be misinterpreting a lot of what I'm reading, but it seems like many are saying:

"I want the government to take money from you and give it to other people who don't have as much because that is the right (Christian, moral) thing to do."

and

"I don't want the government to tell me I can't have an abortion (get married to someone of the same sex), or to allow others to pray in school (put up Christmas decorations in public places) because the government has no business forcing Christian values upon me."

Again, I'm not here to debate the nuances of Christian doctrine. This is about the acceptance of Christian values in one area, and rejection of Christian values in other areas.

Interesting, because I don't consider your first scenario to be a Christian value but rather a value held by the human race as a whole. Whether you believe in 'wealth redistribution' via the income tax system, it is an inherent human value for the majority to help those who are less fortunate than themselves, financially, emotionally or otherwise.

The latter two ARE "Christian values" (for some Christians, and for many other people who do not follow Christianity also) and that is exactly why I would object to having them forced on me.

 

[bsnyder]

Interesting, because I don't consider your first scenario to be a Christian value but rather a value held by the human race as a whole. Whether you believe in 'wealth redistribution' via the income tax system, it is an inherent human value for the majority to help those who are less fortunate than themselves, financially, emotionally or otherwise.

I would agree it's a value that should be held by the human race as a whole.

However, with the rise of the Welfare State, we've decided to do this STRICTLY through a nameless, faceless, distant government beauracracy and relieve individuals of any responsibility beyond writing out that check to Uncle Sam.

Witness so many people's reaction to the news that Obama has an aunt living in public housing.

 

[just4today]

Interesting, because I don't consider your first scenario to be a Christian value but rather a value held by the human race as a whole. Whether you believe in 'wealth redistribution' via the income tax system, it is an inherent human value for the majority to help those who are less fortunate than themselves, financially, emotionally or otherwise.

The latter two ARE "Christian values" (for some Christians, and for many other people who do not follow Christianity also) and that is exactly why I would object to having them forced on me.

I get what you're saying. I'm talking about people who specifically mention "Christian values" when it comes to helping out others.

 

[phragmipedium]

What I have seen is people saying "I don't want my morality legislated," but using "What's wrong with helping the less fortunate? It's the Christian thing to do, right?" when people are making the argument that Obama is socialist. I think they're making the argument to conservatives that if you *do* want some morality and Christian values legislated, well, isn't helping the less fortunate the "Christian" thing to do also?

I don't think it's the strongest argument, but I don't think it's the contradiction you're viewing. I those making the argument are trying to find a contradiction in *your* viewpoint and might say *you* are picking and choosing by supporting some legislation that could be "biblical" but not others.

There may be ones I have missed who have specifically said that they like Obama's economic plan just because it's Christian, but they also like abortion or hate prayer in schools. I haven't seen that, but I understand how a traditional Christian might wonder about it. Personally, I think that is between that person and God - a lot of people struggle with the ala carte thing, I think.

Personally, I don't want my religion legislated, I'm pro-choice and pro-gay marriage, etc. But I agree with Obama's economic policies, not because it's the "Christian" thing to do, but because I think it's the "right" policy economically and I personally find it fair to go back to the Clinton-era tax structure, and I also think a measure of a country is how it treats it's less fortunate citizens. Helping up the less fortunate is not a solely Christian viewpoint nor necessarily religious at all, and I don't view his economic policy as forcing Christianity on others. Someone could justify it to themselves religiously if they wanted; ie the "it's the Christian thing to do to help the less fortunate, so it's right." But that doesn't mean it's legislating Christianity.

 

[just4today]

What I have seen is people saying "I don't want my morality legislated," but using "What's wrong with helping the less fortunate? It's the Christian thing to do, right?" when people are making the argument that Obama is socialist. I think they're making the argument to conservatives that if you *do* want some morality and Christian values legislated, well, isn't helping the less fortunate the "Christian" thing to do also?

I don't think it's the strongest argument, but I don't think it's the contradiction you're viewing. I those making the argument are trying to find a contradiction in *your* viewpoint and might say *you* are picking and choosing by supporting some legislation that could be "biblical" but not others.

There may be ones I have missed who have specifically said that they like Obama's economic plan just because it's Christian, but they also like abortion or hate prayer in schools. I haven't seen that, but I understand how a traditional Christian might wonder about it. Personally, I think that is between that person and God - a lot of people struggle with the ala carte thing, I think.

Personally, I don't want my religion legislated, I'm pro-choice and pro-gay marriage, etc. But I agree with Obama's economic policies, not because it's the "Christian" thing to do, but because I think it's the "right" policy economically and I personally find it fair to go back to the Clinton-era tax structure, and I also think a measure of a country is how it treats it's less fortunate citizens. Helping up the less fortunate is not a solely Christian viewpoint nor necessarily religious at all, and I don't view his economic policy as forcing Christianity on others. Someone could justify it to themselves religiously if they wanted; ie the "it's the Christian thing to do to help the less fortunate, so it's right." But that doesn't mean it's legislating Christianity.

This is an excellent post. Thank you.

Wouldn't it be interesting if citizens were given the choice to "opt out" of a certain percentage of their taxes based upon religious objections? How many would take advantage?

I just find the whole subject fascinating. I think I should have been a sociology major

 

[Colleen27]

I can't answer for others, but I've only used the line about charity being a Christian value in direct response to people who do advocate the legislation of certain Christian beliefs (abortion, gay marriage, public prayer). I know far too many people who would have those things become law, but who resent social programs such as welfare and the EITC. I don't see any consistancy in that position - Christian values are good enough to legislate when it comes to the fate of the unborn or who can enjoy the legal protections of marriage, but should be entirely optional when it comes to helping others. And as a lapsed Christian myself it confuses me even further, because the bible I studied as a child/teen had a lot to say about helping one's fellow man and very little to say about homosexuality or abortion.

 

[phragmipedium]

This is an excellent post. Thank you.

Wouldn't it be interesting if citizens were given the choice to "opt out" of a certain percentage of their taxes based upon religious objections? How many would take advantage?

I just find the whole subject fascinating. I think I should have been a sociology major

Thanks. I was a sociology major. Well, soc major, psych major, and women's and gender studies minor. It is fascinating. And I'm sure that plenty would "opt out," religious or not.

 

[just4today]

I can't answer for others, but I've only used the line about charity being a Christian value in direct response to people who do advocate the legislation of certain Christian beliefs (abortion, gay marriage, public prayer). I know far too many people who would have those things become law, but who resent social programs such as welfare and the EITC. I don't see any consistancy in that position - Christian values are good enough to legislate when it comes to the fate of the unborn or who can enjoy the legal protections of marriage, but should be entirely optional when it comes to helping others. And as a lapsed Christian myself it confuses me even further, because the bible I studied as a child/teen had a lot to say about helping one's fellow man and very little to say about homosexuality or abortion.

I agree - it most definitely goes both ways. What I find interesting is the gray area in between.

 

[redwingfan3991]

, because the bible I studied as a child/teen had a lot to say about helping one's fellow man and very little to say about homosexuality or abortion.


Would it be cuz this stuff wasnt around , so they had no need
to talk about it ???

 

[Kath2003]

Would it be cuz this stuff wasnt around , so they had no need to talk about it ???

Homosexuality and abortion weren't around?

 

[redwingfan3991]

Homosexuality and abortion weren't around


in the Bible..

 

[MyManGoofy!]

, because the bible I studied as a child/teen had a lot to say about helping one's fellow man and very little to say about homosexuality or abortion.


Would it be cuz this stuff wasnt around , so they had no need
to talk about it ???

Are you saying that abortion and homosexuality did not exist until recently?

 

[Kath2003]

Homosexuality and abortion weren't around


in the Bible..

Well they most certainly WERE around at the time that the Bible was written; whether the writers and subsequent editors chose to include them in their writings is another matter.

 

[just4today]

, because the bible I studied as a child/teen had a lot to say about helping one's fellow man and very little to say about homosexuality or abortion.


Would it be cuz this stuff wasnt around , so they had no need
to talk about it ???

Homosexuality and abortion weren't around


in the Bible..

I disagree.

 

[meeskamouska]

Homosexuality and abortion weren't around


in the Bible..

Have you read the Bible??? There is more sin in there than in a soap opera...