Change in plans...

[LORNADUCK]

I do have to agree with Jen, we are the lucky ones that live here and get to go often, but there comes a time when spending $100 a night (and we are bringing our own beds) gets beyond the point of crazy. They don't need maids to clean up after us. They send in someone with a blower to clean the site. When I called a few weeks ago about a reservation the CM I spoke to told me that there aren't going to be any discounts at the fort for AP holders. She said that we should all email and tell them how unhappy we are about it. They keep taking away any change of a discount for us who want to stay there.

 

[AuburnJen92]

I have no interest in arguing this unto anybody's last breath, but I do want to counter at least one statement:



I ran the numbers in a previous post, and I cannot stay at a the cheapest Disney resort for less than the cost of a Preferred site. Not without some kinda discount anyhow. And they give those discounts because their occupancy is dangerously close to not covering their operating expenses. When the Fort's occupancy is so low that they don't cover expenses you'll see discount codes for the Fort too.

And see you compare apples to oranges. You are comparing your prices to preferred, where I did not. And, you did not add in the extras as I did as well. So, for you to sit back and tell new folks how wonderful and peachy everything is at the Fort is just what Disney wants. I am not comparing what Disney did back in the 80's, 70's or 90's. I am comparing to what they did JUST A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO. Pixie dust cannot cloud the brain that bad. I am not trying to be the pessimist here, no matter how you portray it. I am being a realist here. If you choose to save up your money for one trip a year, that is your choice and by gollie, good for you. If you choose to go 6 times a year, good for you. But, for goodness sake, make an informed decision based on facts, trends and past history, not pixie dust. The boat situation to the MK didn't become solved until people like us voiced our opinions and suggestions to the powers at Disney about what needed to be done. Everything changes, but the value for what you pay for should never decline. You might have to pay more for it because of inflation, but what you get should not be less and you pay more. That is my whole point.

I have not been a lifelong Fort'er, so I can't really speak to the incessant rise in campsite prices, but I have been going to the World for an awful long time and though I find the prices of todays park passes a bit painful, I don't look back at my $18 ticket stubs and sneer.

I have said nothing about the ticket prices at Disney. I actually feel that they are justified based on operating costs. Fort Wilderness has little overhead compared to every other resort, yet preferred and premium sites are often higher than value resorts.

Trying to judge where we are by comparing to what once was is a recipe for dissatisfaction.

Knowing what Disney is capable of and what they do to cut corners now is dissatisifying. (sp?) Ignoring patterns of business behavior is just being an uninformed customer.

If I judged Epcot that way I would rather they cut their price by $60 and bring back Horizons and World of Motion! Take me back to the '80s, Baby! I think it is more useful to listen to newbies to the Fort (like the Podcast team) rave about what a great value it is.

I have never said that I wanted anything to be brought back. I know this can't happen. Would I like it to happen, yes, will it? No. Now, to think it useful to listen to people that have little or no experience to the Fort is like asking a middle schooler to work on your engine of your car. The middle schooler is infatuated with the idea of working on the engine, but in reality, has no real clue of the workings or mechanics of the engine, much less how to fix it. Gimme a veteran if you please, and one that knows their way around with their eyes closed. That way, I know I will never be lost. I liked the podcast, but frankly had to giggle at some of the things they went on about. It was very clear that they were resort type folks. It is fine and dandy that they are and I am very glad they came to the Fort, however, if one was to rely on newbies for information, this forum would not be what it has become "infamous" for.

that is my quarter's worth

 

[Shan-man]

First, let me say I'm sincerely sorry if any of what I've said has been interpreted as combative or insulting... it was certainly not written with any animosity. The only comment in recent weeks that I've gotten at all hot over was when someone complained about paying $100 for a spigot, sewer, and socket... that is ridiculous. I don't even remember who it was, so I obviously wasn't too bent about it. Anyway, I am grieved that you are upset with me for my shameless shilling for Disney and the Fort... I love them, and I think they are a great value, and I'm not afraid to share that with folks who ask. I didn't fall in line when the SBC called for a boycott, and I'm not going to now -- even if it means being ostracized from some of my best cyber-friends. Is the Fort as great a value as it once was, no, but they are still good values in my book. In retrospect, I think it was an outrageously good value once, and I'm glad I was able to capitalize on it, it makes swallowing today's more bitter pills easier!

At the risk of drawing more venom my way (possibly to be lumped in with the LJ's and CO's of the DISavowed ) I have to respond to a couple of things:

And see you compare apples to oranges. You are comparing your prices to preferred, where I did not. And, you did not add in the extras as I did as well.

I'm lost. Thought you were complaining about a campsite being more than a value resort. All I was saying is even the next to highest priced site is cheaper than a value. And who want's to stay in a value? All I can say is that I wasn't trying to be disingenuous or to set up a straw man argument.

So, for you to sit back and tell new folks how wonderful and peachy everything is at the Fort is just what Disney wants. I am not comparing what Disney did back in the 80's, 70's or 90's. I am comparing to what they did JUST A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO. Pixie dust cannot cloud the brain that bad. I am not trying to be the pessimist here, no matter how you portray it. I am being a realist here.

I'm quite sure you are right, Disney would be very happy to hear that they have customers who are happy with their product... happy enough to be unpaid evangelists! Am I happy that Disney is testing it's boundaries to see just how much it can cut services and raise prices before it affects their bottomline? No, I'm not... but they haven't reached a breaking point for me yet. This kind of thing is happening everywhere also, not just WDW. My local chinese place has been cutting portion sizes to the point that the value is gone for me now, and I won't go back nearly as often. Finally, I don't know if you are accusing me of being a purveyor of pixie dust (or of snorting it ), but I never accused you of being a pessimist... though I did appreciate Auntie's calling me an optimist.

If you choose to save up your money for one trip a year, that is your choice and by gollie, good for you. If you choose to go 6 times a year, good for you. But, for goodness sake, make an informed decision based on facts, trends and past history, not pixie dust.

My mind may be a little clouded from snorting too much pixie dust , but I could have sworn I was basing my justification on facts... I think I'm the only one around here comparing the prices of one resort to another. As for trends and history, what does that have to do with anything if the question is "is the Fort worth what they charge?" That's the only question I'm concerned with here. Questions like "could the Fort offer more for my money" and "why doesn't the Fort do xxx anymore" might be good fodder for starting fires, but they do nothing to answer the question about current value.

Knowing what Disney is capable of and what they do to cut corners now is dissatisifying. (sp?) Ignoring patterns of business behavior is just being an uninformed customer.

But, is it so dissatisfying that you will not continue to be a customer? We all have different breaking-points, and acknowledging that they have not yet hit mine doesn't make me ignorant. I'm completely aware of places they've made cuts, but again, the question is, of the services you get now, is the Fort worth the cost? My answer is still yes. And as long as the answer is yes I'm going to go as often as I can, focus on all the things I love, try to ignore the things I don't, and to not miss the things that once were. (gimme another hit of that pixie dust )

Now, to think it useful to listen to people that have little or no experience to the Fort is like asking a middle schooler to work on your engine of your car. The middle schooler is infatuated with the idea of working on the engine, but in reality, has no real clue of the workings or mechanics of the engine, much less how to fix it. Gimme a veteran if you please, and one that knows their way around with their eyes closed. That way, I know I will never be lost. I liked the podcast, but frankly had to giggle at some of the things they went on about. It was very clear that they were resort type folks. It is fine and dandy that they are and I am very glad they came to the Fort, however, if one was to rely on newbies for information, this forum would not be what it has become "infamous" for.

I think you may have misunderstood my meaning... I was talking about the usefulness of folks who are very knowledgeable about travel and resort costs coming to the Fort with fresh eyes and evaluating the value of the experience. These folks have stayed at just about every resort at WDW, on and off-property, and they spend all week, every week helping people get the most bang for their vacation dollar and they said that the Fort is a good value (even without cable ). I tend to agree... call me crazy

 

[Napria]

Skinny person weighing in here. Well, at least I *thought* I was skinny till I saw myself on video last night... And then one of my co-workers told me I've got a big butt today. But I digress...

I for one will pay $100 or more a night for a good campground, at WDW or outside. We bought our 5th wheel four years ago and have watched as some great campgrounds have been sold out to developers for condos. We wait in frustration as our beloved Corps of Engineers campgrounds are closed for the winter (and part of the Fall and Spring, too) because it costs too much to operate them when they're not at capacity.

I don't go RVing to save money. I go because, as Maureen O'Hara said, "I need me tings about me." My home. With me. My stuff. And yes, my dog is welcome at the campgrounds we go to, unlike most hotels, on or off Disney property.

And one other thing, the only people who have ever slept in my RV's beds are my DH, kids and me. A small thing to some, but the thought of sleeping in a hotel bed skeeves me out now that I no longer have to.

Just MY 2c.

(Stepping off my soapbox now.)

 

[Cindy F]

......The only comment in recent weeks that I've gotten at all hot over was when someone complained about paying $100 for a spigot, sewer, and socket... that is ridiculous. I don't even remember who it was, so I obviously wasn't too bent about it.

That was me but I didn't know you got upset over it. It's just my opinion-not meant make anyone angry or hurt. I just looked at like since anyone can enjoy everything The Fort has to offer without paying (Campfire, singalong, movies, activities) you really are just paying to hook up.

Again, it wasn't my intent to offend anyone

Anyway, I am grieved that you are upset with me for my shameless shilling for Disney and the Fort... I love them, and I think they are a great value, and I'm not afraid to share that with folks who ask. I didn't fall in line when the SBC called for a boycott, and I'm not going to now -- even if it means being ostracized from some of my best cyber-friends......

I would hope no one would ostracize anyone or be angry with them just because their opinion is different--otherwise this is one liberal democrat that will surely be dead in the water. People are different and that's okay, life would be very boring if we weren't. Hey, we all love The Fort, some of us are just willing to pay a bit more for it, some aren't.

... but they haven't reached a breaking point for me yet. ....
...I'm completely aware of places they've made cuts, but again, the question is, of the services you get now, is the Fort worth the cost? My answer is still yes.

You're right, everyone has their own breaking point, you just haven't reached yours yet but others have and I think there's probably room around the community campfire for everyone to have a voice.

If I only went once a year and had only been to Disney a handful of times, I may not feel the way I do but I guess my opinion falls along with Jen's. It's not just the cost of the hookup that's so outrageous, it's made worse by knowing that I can stay up the road at a very nice campground for $15 - $18 year round.

I have to admit too....I know it's just business....but it does sting a bit that usually when the mess hits the fan THEN Disney wants to cater to the residents (and "Good Neighbors") but not before.

Yes, I love Fort Wilderness but I will only stay there if Fort Wilderness is the destination and not any amusement parks so I can enjoy everything "I'm paying for" ~grin~
and only in the off season, otherwise I'll stay at my "regular camp ground" and enjoy The Fort on day/night trips.

 

[Shan-man]

That was me but I didn't know you got upset over it. It's just my opinion-not meant make anyone angry or hurt. I just looked at like since anyone can enjoy everything The Fort has to offer without paying (Campfire, singalong, movies, activities) you really are just paying to hook up.

Cindy, you are a doll and I know you weren't trying to incite anyone. I didn't even remember it was you, so don't think I held anything personally... the comment just irritated me. And I still maintain that if all the Fort is to someone is a hookup, then they would do better just to stay off-site. Before I started staying at the Fort I stayed at a CG that WAS nothing but a hookup, Encore, and that place was $60! Add the cost of Disney parking (for us non-annual-passholders) and you are talking the cost of a Fort stay with NONE of the benefits. Just the atmosphere and Disney transportation is worth the price difference. Add in the convenience, the other amenities, and free entertainment, well, I assert that the Fort is a bargain. It is not just a hookup. All that to say, the comment irritates the hell outta me, you however are a doll!

 

[GoSox50]

I just want to thank everyone who won't be staying at the Fort--it gives me and my family a chance to stay here. We are staying at the Fort in May and had a 9 night reservation and have decided to add on another day. We used to stay at a moderate, eat out every meal, and air fare from Mass, we found driving down with our own stuff and staying at the Fort alot cheaper. Staying off site is not an option. There is no "magic" staying in some campground or hotel off-site and fighting traffic to get to a park. The "magic" is sitting on a Disney bus and seeing a child all dressed like a pirate or princess. The "magic" is being on these same busses at the end of the day and seeing the pirate and princess trying to stay awake because they have had a full day. We have a premium site and paying 89.00 a night. There is a very nice campground here in Mass that I can easily pay up to 80.00 a night and it's not Disney. Everything about Disney is expensive, why would anyone think that staying at the campground be any different? And the memories are priceless... I have two 20 year olds who still feel the need to hang out with Mom & Dad at Disney.

 

[AuburnJen92]

First, let me say I'm sincerely sorry if any of what I've said has been interpreted as combative or insulting... it was certainly not written with any animosity. The only comment in recent weeks that I've gotten at all hot over was when someone complained about paying $100 for a spigot, sewer, and socket... that is ridiculous. I don't even remember who it was, so I obviously wasn't too bent about it. Anyway, I am grieved that you are upset with me for my shameless shilling for Disney and the Fort... I love them, and I think they are a great value, and I'm not afraid to share that with folks who ask. I didn't fall in line when the SBC called for a boycott, and I'm not going to now -- even if it means being ostracized from some of my best cyber-friends. Is the Fort as great a value as it once was, no, but they are still good values in my book. In retrospect, I think it was an outrageously good value once, and I'm glad I was able to capitalize on it, it makes swallowing today's more bitter pills easier!

At the risk of drawing more venom my way (possibly to be lumped in with the LJ's and CO's of the DISavowed ) I have to respond to a couple of things:

I am not lumping you in with anyone. If you have not figured out by now, I say what I have to say, period. CO seems to have a problem with that and goes away, however, you stay your ground which is fair to me, however we will continue to disagree.

I'm lost. Thought you were complaining about a campsite being more than a value resort. All I was saying is even the next to highest priced site is cheaper than a value. And who want's to stay in a value? All I can say is that I wasn't trying to be disingenuous or to set up a straw man argument.

But the problem is that you are not seeing the whole picture here. When you book a value resort, you get a room, they are all the same. When you book at the Fort, you can only get what is site is available, and most of the time, that is only premium, so I cannot agree with the basis of your argument. If Disney kept the loop pricing structure the way it was with tent, partial, full and preferred and made the modifications, I wouldn't be so bent out of shape with the increase in pricing because more sites would be available at a certain price range. (most were available in the middle range of full) However, they have left the most affordable (full) to just a couple of loops and left most of the available sites to book at the premium price point. This was done deliberately. Now, both of us have older RV's with increased maintenance issues and both of us LIKE having our "old bessies". The last 10 times I have called for reservations over the past 4 months have only had premium sites available, even in a recession. This is the whole reason why I said the apples and oranges argument earlier. I hope that clears that up a bit.

I'm quite sure you are right, Disney would be very happy to hear that they have customers who are happy with their product... happy enough to be unpaid evangelists!

things that make you go hmmm...

Am I happy that Disney is testing it's boundaries to see just how much it can cut services and raise prices before it affects their bottomline? No, I'm not... but they haven't reached a breaking point for me yet. This kind of thing is happening everywhere also, not just WDW. My local chinese place has been cutting portion sizes to the point that the value is gone for me now, and I won't go back nearly as often. Finally, I don't know if you are accusing me of being a purveyor of pixie dust (or of snorting it ), but I never accused you of being a pessimist... though I did appreciate Auntie's calling me an optimist.

no you didn't call me a pessimist, someone already did, and what you snort I don't need to know about, ok? you are the ultimate optimist, but you also need to be an informed optimist too

My mind may be a little clouded from snorting too much pixie dust , but I could have sworn I was basing my justification on facts... I think I'm the only one around here comparing the prices of one resort to another. As for trends and history, what does that have to do with anything if the question is "is the Fort worth what they charge?" That's the only question I'm concerned with here. Questions like "could the Fort offer more for my money" and "why doesn't the Fort do xxx anymore" might be good fodder for starting fires, but they do nothing to answer the question about current value.

I think that trends and history are terribly important, especially when you know both. Knowing both will answer all your questions above and also answer whether or not Disney is giving you a good value for your dollar you spend with them. When just adding cable to a pad and new grill and adding a new designation to a site justifies such a significant price increase across the year is a value, just please make up a new word for it other than gouging. There is little difference in most of the preferred sites. They have spent very little in respect to the increases they are asking for. So to answer your question about current value for preferred and premium, I think it stinks.

But, is it so dissatisfying that you will not continue to be a customer? We all have different breaking-points, and acknowledging that they have not yet hit mine doesn't make me ignorant.

hmmm, ignorant, didn't use that

I'm completely aware of places they've made cuts, but again, the question is, of the services you get now, is the Fort worth the cost? My answer is still yes. And as long as the answer is yes I'm going to go as often as I can, focus on all the things I love, try to ignore the things I don't, and to not miss the things that once were. (gimme another hit of that pixie dust )

as i said before, yeah! good for you...you are not at the point yet to say i am cutting back because they have gone too far...

I think you may have misunderstood my meaning... I was talking about the usefulness of folks who are very knowledgeable about travel and resort costs coming to the Fort with fresh eyes and evaluating the value of the experience. These folks have stayed at just about every resort at WDW, on and off-property, and they spend all week, every week helping people get the most bang for their vacation dollar and they said that the Fort is a good value (even without cable ). I tend to agree... call me crazy

the fort is a good value, if you only come once a year

 

[AuburnJen92]

I have to admit too....I know it's just business....but it does sting a bit that usually when the mess hits the fan THEN Disney wants to cater to the residents (and "Good Neighbors") but not before.

This is what most out of staters miss. Disney, when in a pinch will fall back on the in staters to bail them out. I am not sure it will work again.

 

[TheFlame]

GTH Jen!!!

The OP asked who had changed their plans because of the prices. I don't think the ones that answered and said they canceled or changed their plans because of the RIDICULOUS prices need to be convinced it is a great, wonderful, magical place to stay. We were just there in Nov. so it is not as big of a deal for us to cancel as it might would be for someone else. The state of our economy and the world for that matter is more most people's mind at the moment than an overpriced vacation. There is really no excuse at all for the recent price increase and most people would agree that it is crazy and while it may be "worth" it to some, it is not near as affordable for most as it was just a year ago.

Anyway, I am not going to give a bunch of facts and crunch a bunch of numbers or anything like that. As I stated in my previous post, we canceled our trip because of the jump in price during the second part of the trip. I would personally feel really stupid paying $100 a night for a campsite that I had just paid $64 for the previous week. Nevermind the fact that the same campsite was $47 a year ago. For the rest of you, get 'er done. If you are not having tough times, then you are in the minority and should be very thankful. We have had some really great times at Disney the past few years, but we can no longer ignore the fact that Disney is pricing out the majority of working class campers. The only way we have been able to afford Disney the past few years is because of the campground but it looks as if those days are long gone.

No, really, we changed our plans thanks to Obama. JK! He is going to pay my mortgage and put gas in my tank, but I don't think I can talk him into a trip to Disney. We are all going to be paying for the "change" that is going on and that leaves none in my pocket to hand over to Disney while I bend over and enjoy it.

We don't live in Fantasyland anymore and I think we have plenty of company!

 

[Cindy F]

Cindy, you are a doll and I know you weren't trying to incite anyone. I didn't even remember it was you, so don't think I held anything personally... the comment just irritated me. And I still maintain that if all the Fort is to someone is a hookup, then they would do better just to stay off-site. Just the atmosphere and Disney transportation is worth the price difference. Add in the convenience, the other amenities, and free entertainment, well, I assert that the Fort is a bargain. It is not just a hookup. All that to say, the comment irritates the hell outta me, you however are a doll!

LOL! I'm glad you're okay with me (just not my comment) ~grin~ I DO love The Fort, very much-just not for $100 a day and not if we're going to be in the parks all day and half the night anyway. My tightwad self will be there for 3 weeks in Dec so I must love it! AND in the whole time we are there...we're only going to EPCOT and only for one day/night at the request of DD13!

......Staying off site is not an option. There is no "magic" staying in some campground or hotel off-site and fighting traffic to get to a park. The "magic" is sitting on a Disney bus and seeing a child all dressed like a pirate or princess. The "magic" is being on these same busses at the end of the day and seeing the pirate and princess trying to stay awake because they have had a full day.

I think everyone has their own idea of Disney "magic". Our "magic" just comes from being together, laughing, and enjoying the parks. We've been somewhere around 30-40 times since 10/2001 and this past December was the first time we ever stayed on site. I found the busses anything but magical!

I think it's silly to spend $100 a night on a campsite to be in the parks all day so I don't do it-but I don't criticize or look down on others for their choice or think it's any less magical than mine.

If you think it is more magical to stay on site then that's definitely what you should do. I will honestly say that I had never heard that staying off site was less magical than staying on site until I started reading the Disboards. Now that I've done both, I can say that for us there's no difference-on site or off we still have a great time and make wonderful memories (well...except for the thunderstorms, pizza eating raccoons, abscessed tooth, below freezing weather )

I did miss the campfire movie and Wishes on the beach BUT we could have drove over and done those things anyway and even if we couldn't-it wouldn't be worth an extra $520 in my opinion.

This is what most out of staters miss. Disney, when in a pinch will fall back on the in staters to bail them out. I am not sure it will work again.

I know and it's hard not to get a little "miffed" when this happens over and over again. PLUS, all of the in-towners don't have fun at Disney anyway since there's no magic in going to WDW then driving home ~grin~ okay okay I admit that might have been an eensty bit snarky

 

[Cindy F]

....The only way we have been able to afford Disney the past few years is because of the campground but it looks as if those days are long gone....

I'm sorry. I don't know what kind of camping you do but you are certainly welcome to use the tent pad behind us at The Fort when we're there.

 

[Shan-man]

hmmm, ignorant, didn't use that

No, you said "Ignoring patterns of business behavior is just being an uninformed customer." An uninformed ignorer is an ignorant person, by definition. Did I go too far adding 2+2? I'm not concerned about it, I just wanted to make the point that words do have meaning and carry weight when hurled. BONK!


On a totally different front: Flame, you started your post with "GTH Jen!!!" I'm wondering what acronym you are using? In my book GTH means Go To Hell and you obviously didn't mean that since you agree with her. Just wondering.

 

[RNmomnFL]

We have the week of Spring Break (April) reserved at the Fort but may have to decrease the stay to five nights only in an effort to cut down the cost. We are unable to apply any discounts (like AP) to this stay & even though we have a full hookup only, it's still more expensive than we would like. But, we still think it's a good value as we can cook in the camper & have all the extras that come with staying onsite. Plus, we need to use the camper that we are still paying on. Also, we've stayed at other campgrounds & it's not even close to Fort Wilderness as far as cleanliness of the showers, transportation, activities, etc. Did I mention we could bring our pooch if we want to as well.

 

[AuburnJen92]

No, you said "Ignoring patterns of business behavior is just being an uninformed customer." An uninformed ignorer is an ignorant person, by definition. Did I go too far adding 2+2? I'm not concerned about it, I just wanted to make the point that words do have meaning and carry weight when hurled. BONK!

taking quotes and turning them around is taking someone out of context, which you just proved above, so to answer your question, did you go to far, yes
Ignoring patterns of behavior is being an uniformed customer. It is not being an uniformed ignorer. You can't have it both ways Shan. I was being specific and you turned it into a terrible generalization and that was not fair at all.

On a totally different front: Flame, you started your post with "GTH Jen!!!" I'm wondering what acronym you are using? In my book GTH means Go To Hell and you obviously didn't mean that since you agree with her. Just wondering.

GTH=Go to hell and Give them hell....considering the context of the flame's response, I am choosing the latter of the two.

Look Shan, the whole reason I posted was to have people see another side of this, which for some reason, seems to be falling on deaf ears. I am a subborn gal by nature and will continue to state my side. I see your side, and the other "magical" ones who have not gone past their point. However, I don't back down and won't in what I believe in. We have a difference of opinion, but people need to know the other side from the local crowd to make an informed decision. I will never back away from that.

 

[2goofycampers]

We just ended up cancelling our stay at FW, and now we are going to stay off grounds for those 3 days before we check in to OKW. We just realized that we were paying @$400 for a site for 3 days. The prices are too high, and the economy isn't getting better. Has anyone else changed their plans because of the economy?

Yes, we were going to make a trip in Jan or early Feb and had to cancel.


I'm waving the white flag and recalling a line from The Muppet Show.


WE SURRENDER ........... WE SURRENDER.

 

[Shan-man]

taking quotes and turning them around is taking someone out of context, which you just proved above, so to answer your question, did you go to far, yes
Ignoring patterns of behavior is being an uniformed customer. It is not being an uniformed ignorer. You can't have it both ways Shan. I was being specific and you turned it into a terrible generalization and that was not fair at all.

Ok, I'm something of a word geek, so forgive me for again taking issue with this line of thinking. First, ignorant does not equal stupid (despite modern corruption of the word), so that is not what I'm accusing you of calling me. Ignorant means that you choose not to know certain things, not an inability. Plenty of highly intelligent people fly in airliners with no concept of how aerodynamics work. They are ignorant about the physics of flight. You are clearly accusing me of being ignorant regarding Disney's history of business practices (I'm clouding my judgement with pixie dust, and ignoring trends and so on, and so on, and so on!) and for you to cry foul when I put the label on those many, many accusations is silly, and frankly out of character for a pull-no-punch, straight-talker such as yourself! I disagree that I am ignorant of these factors, I am aware of them, I just deny that they have any relevance in determining the current value of a Fort stay, so I choose to focus on the things that do speak to current value. I don't want to focus on the things that irritate. I'm sorry to everyone my optimism irritates.

BTW: If we ever go to the movies together, and you notice that there is a big smudge on the screen, please don't point it out to me... if you do I'm likely to fixate on it and miss the movie! Please don't hate me because I'm able to enjoy the movie!

 

[Mmketeer]

Yup, we changed our plans due to the economy. We were suppose be there at FW right now for Valentine's Day weekend, but we just couldn't see paying the high prices. It's too bad they don't offer deals for the campsites like they do for all the resorts.

 

[Shan-man]

Look Shan, the whole reason I posted was to have people see another side of this, which for some reason, seems to be falling on deaf ears. I am a subborn gal by nature and will continue to state my side. I see your side, and the other "magical" ones who have not gone past their point. However, I don't back down and won't in what I believe in. We have a difference of opinion, but people need to know the other side from the local crowd to make an informed decision. I will never back away from that.

I guess I'll respond to your edit, too Let me quote a great American: "Though your words make my blood boil, i will defend to the death your right to speak them!" Ok, maybe it's a paraphrase, but that's close. I respect your right, and encourage you to present your side. I agree that people need to hear all sides to make informed decisions. We may disagree over what is germane to the discussion, and I would expect such things to be flagged by the opposing side. My concern is the tone of much of this discussion has been to attack the person rather than the argument. That may not have been the intent, but that was the thrust as received. I have not set up straw man arguments to make my point, I have not attempted to undermine my opposition by accusing them of being doe-eyed or uninformed, and I have tried to either argue the facts or defuse personal jabs. As for the personal jabs, I am not wounded by them, but I do want you to be aware of them, and hopefully show that they are not effective to making your case. If I make an inaccurate case, what difference does it make if I'm a genius or an idiot? Attack the case.

I'm done. I still really like you Jen and hope for smoother waters ahead.

 

[gmflanigan]

Yup, we changed our plans due to the economy. We were suppose be there at FW right now for Valentine's Day weekend, but we just couldn't see paying the high prices. It's too bad they don't offer deals for the campsites like they do for all the resorts.

I agree. Just because we like the campsites shouldn't mean we lose out on the deals. I would love to be able to do the free dining. I asked why and was told FW is always booked so they don't have to.