Cecil the Lion

[Vaughn4380]

The mere fact that it was an illegal hunt and that there is some speculation in some circles that they targeted this lion for his unusual black mane as a trophy makes me hope that Zimbabwe asks the US to hold up the extradition treaty so that Dr. Palmer can face charges and the Zimbabwe courts can determine whether he was duped or if he needs to be held accountable

Understood, and I agree.

 

[Bec3b1g]

Is it the fact he was a lion that people are upset, or the fact the lion was illegally shot? I mean, are we hating on the act of legal hunting? Or the act of breaking the laws? This thread has some extreme viewpoints and is actually hard to follow.

I will go on record and say I hate illegal hunting and poachers. These countries have game wardens with managment plans to ensure the species survives for future generations. Poaching reduces the chance my kid will see a [insert any animal you want here] in the wild. But the act of legal hunting is not the issue here.

I have no issue with hunting or with professional hunts. The circumstances of Cecil's death I don't consider "hunting." It wasn't legal or ethical. And it creates confusion and negative emotion in the general public, who may not understand or like hunting to begin with.

 

[Hrhpd]

That's what I'd like to know. People are furious with the dentist for killing a lion but is it only because he was a protected lion and it was probably illegal? Or do they feel the same way about all big game hunters who kill for sport (of which there are many thousands and do it legally with permits). Should the legal lion killers be publicly shamed and should their businesses be forced to close?

No, while I may not like it, legal hunting is well, legal. Their businesses should not be shut down.

Poaching is a whole 'nother story. Poaching is what causes animals to go on the endangered lists. Legal hunting is done with carefully doled out licenses to protect the numbers of the species. Poaching does not care if they hunt the animal into extinction.

The recent pictures of big game hunters with their trophies, such as the cheerleader, are good examples. They elicited disgust, but did not get the firestorm reaction Dr. Palmer is currently getting. Granted, part of the reaction to Dr. Palmer is the particular animal he poached - the "face" of the reserve. A friendly, at least as friendly as a wild animal can be, lion that was responsible for bringing tourists (jobs, money) to Zimbabwe. However, the intensity of the firestorm seems to be because this famous animal was poached illegally.

 

[GaryDis]

Cecil seems like a really strange name for a wild animal. How'd he get that name?

He was named after Cecil Rhodes (scroll down to "Why was Cecil so celebrated"), which seems an odd choice given the history of Rhodesia/Zimbabwe. Perhaps there was a connection between Rhodes and the Oxford University team that was studying him.

 

[dinolounger]

Your quoting abilities and interpretation of posts confuse me.

Speaking of finger wagging, thanks for the great example above!

 

[mnrose]

I think the reason people aren't as upset about the tortured farm factory animals is because they really don't know or believe it is happening. I have been a vegan for just over a year. Why did I eat meat before that? I was conditioned like most people that it is ok to eat animals, dairy and eggs. It is ok for us to have leather bags and coats. The torture is hidden.

I found out how horrible the truth is. The more I learn the more heartbreaking it is.

I am hoping the outrage of Cecil will prove to be a good thing. All these people who are heartbroken over it are potential vegans in my opinion. I truly believe that most people are good at heart and if they knew how factory animals are treated they would stop participating.

I have to stop myself from being angry when people eat meat or defend eating meat. It's difficult once you know the truth about the abuse. I sit here and wonder how it is allowed. How is it even legal? Then I remind myself that just a year ago I was that person.

We need more education. I think stories like this will help because it opens the conversation.

I understand your angst about factory farming, BUT please do not paint with such a broad brush. It is totally possible to eat meat, eggs, dairy WITHOUT it having come from the factory farm operations. I support my local farmers who endeavor to treat their animals in an ethical manner. It costs more. It's worth it to me.

Animal products have been part of the human diet for a LONG time (hence why we have CANINE teeth). We are meant to be omnivores. However, this doesn't translate into indiscriminate and abusive behavior to animals.

 

[Rhombus]

Cecil seems like a really strange name for a wild animal. How'd he get that name?

Most zoo animals have unusual names, so it's not surprising that this "almost a zoo lion" got one as well.

By the way, my sister's emotional support porcupine is named Cecil, and I'm offended that you think it's a really strange name.

 

[Goofy_Disney_Dad]

He was named after Cecil Rhodes (scroll down to "Why was Cecil so celebrated"), which seems an odd choice given the history of Rhodesia/Zimbabwe. Perhaps there was a connection between Rhodes and the Oxford University team that was studying him.

Thanks for the info! You seem to be doing that a lot for me lately.

 

[gwynne]

I understand your angst about factory farming, BUT please do not paint with such a broad brush. It is totally possible to eat meat, eggs, dairy WITHOUT it having come from the factory farm operations. I support my local farmers who endeavor to treat their animals in an ethical manner. It costs more. It's worth it to me.

Animal products have been part of the human diet for a LONG time (hence why we have CANINE teeth). We are meant to be omnivores. However, this doesn't translate into indiscriminate and abusive behavior to animals.

Yes. This.
And I can eat a varied diet and...Be disgusted by bribes, the deliberate circumvention and breaking of local laws and regulations, the wounding of an animal and leaving that animal to suffer, finally killing it to get the head for a rec-room decoration, deliberately hiding his tracking tag, the list goes on and on....

 

[Gumbo4x4]

One thing I'm unclear on is how the baiting operation went down. For lion hunting, the bait is typically a cape buffalo. The buffalo is killed, then the carcass is dragged for miles through the brush leaving scent along the way. It's then hung in a tree in a manner that is too high for hyenas to reach in an effort to draw in a lion. Several bait trees are set up, and they're checked each morning for tracks. If they find a large male has been feeding on a particular bait, the hunters will set up a blind there in the hope the male will return to feed that night. The lions typically find the bait not by sniffing out the tree from miles away, but rather from following the scent of the drag track.

So, I guess my question is: was the bait animal actually dragged through the national park? Was it dragged through a non-hunting buffer zone just outside the park boundaries? Or, what exactly?


On another note, the safari industry is one of the few industries in Zimbabwe that Mugabe hasn't nationalized. They operate pretty independently in remote, somewhat lawless land still "managed" by former Rhodesians. A lot of hunters avoid Zimbabwe because they don't want to bring dollars into Mugabe's country. Others feel our $ is the only hope these remote Zimbabweans have for a decent life. So, I'll be curious to see what sort of side stories come out of all of this.

 

[dinolounger]

The New York Times published the below this morning.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/30/us/cecil-the-lion-walter-palmer.html?_r=0

They hit the nail on the head in describing exactly what is going on here and elsewhere online:

Internet Vigilantism

And they almost directly quoted me on points I made earlier. From the article (I added the bold emphasis):

"The outrage and attention surrounding the lion’s death online caused Dr. Palmer to keep his office closed on Wednesday as he joined an ever-expanding group of people who have become targets of Internet vigilantism, facing a seemingly endless shaming until the next issue comes along."

And per the last point in the above quote, enjoy this fracas while you can, given its short life expectancy. That will be another two days or so max; by then the fickle online vigilante crowd will get distracted by and move on to the next trending scandal.

 

[Cantw8]

Charming. You would have fit in well with the crowds at the Roman Colosseum circa AD 100.

It's hyperbole, Dear...I would not waste steak sauce on this loser

 

[Pugsley]

They claim it is actually harder to get a shot with the bow and that makes the hunt more sporting for the animal, and more challenging for the hunter.

More sporting for the animal?????? I doubt the animal considers it a sport.

 

[lauracitawita]

I understand your angst about factory farming, BUT please do not paint with such a broad brush. It is totally possible to eat meat, eggs, dairy WITHOUT it having come from the factory farm operations. I support my local farmers who endeavor to treat their animals in an ethical manner. It costs more. It's worth it to me.

Animal products have been part of the human diet for a LONG time (hence why we have CANINE teeth). We are meant to be omnivores. However, this doesn't translate into indiscriminate and abusive behavior to animals.

Firstly, I don't believe I painted with a broad brush. I was specifically talking about factory farmed animals which is what most people eat. However, I personally don't think it matters. If you saw someone on the street shoot a dog in the head and it was instantly killed (therefore 'ethically') and then ate it for dinner, I am pretty sure you would be outraged. It would be the Cecil story all over again.

You are right. If there were an ethical way to kill an animal I guess I would eat meat. I haven't heard of it yet. If Cecil had been killed by your version of ethical, I would still be heartbroken.

The fact that humans have been eating meat for a LONG time doesn't mean anything to me. Humans have done tons of things for a long time that we now don't do because we evolve and realize it is unnecessary and cruel.

I don't need an animal to be killed just so I can selfishly enjoy eating its flesh. There are thousands of other things I can eat.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

“I was shocked and outraged to hear the story of Cecil, Zimbabwe’s much loved lion. Not only is it incomprehensible to me that anyone would want to kill an endangered animal (fewer than 20,000 wild lions in Africa today) but to lure Cecil from the safety of a national park and then to shoot him with a crossbow...? I have no words to express my repugnance. He was not even killed outright, but suffered for hours before finally being shot with a bullet. And his magnificent head severed from his wounded body. And this behaviour is described as a “sport." Only one good thing comes out of this – thousands of people have read the story and have also been shocked. Their eyes opened to the dark side of human nature. Surely they will now be more prepared to fight for the protection of wild animals and the wild places where they live. Therein lies the hope.”

Jane Goodall, Ph.d., DBE
Founder, the Jane Goodall Institute &
UN Messenger of Peace

 

[GaryDis]

Thanks for the info! You seem to be doing that a lot for me lately.

Glad to be of help. Internet research is a skill I try to build, and focusing on the raw information helps keep me from saying something I'll regret.

 

[Vaughn4380]

The fact that humans have been eating meat for a LONG time doesn't mean anything to me.

 

[GaryDis]

“... endangered ...”

Jane Goodall, Ph.d., DBE ...

Meaning no disrepect to Dr. Goodall, I'm sure there's more than one formal definition of "endangered." I prefer to use the IUCN Red List, based on nothing more than it's the one that Wikipedia normally uses, and at least gives the appearance of being a respected, international classification. It was their lion page (found via Wikipedia) that I was relying on earlier when I said that lions are classified as vulnerable.

I don't see a huge point in getting up on the use of "endangered" here. It's a semantic molehill in a mountain of bigger issues.

 

[dinolounger]

hope that Zimbabwe asks the US to hold up the extradition treaty so that Dr. Palmer can face charges and the Zimbabwe courts can determine whether he was duped or if he needs to be held accountable...Again.

If you want a sense of how complicated, slow and uncertain of success the extradition process is, you may want to dig up the old Amanda Knox threads that I think are in this forum. If Zimbabwe pursues extradition (for someone who likely has deep pockets for legal defense) we are looking at a process that will possibly take years before any closure.

 

[gwynne]

If you want a sense of how complicated, slow and uncertain of success the extradition process is, you may want to dig up the Amanda Knox threads. If Zimbabwe pursues that we are looking at a process that will take years before any closure.

Italy and Zimbabwe are two different countries. Pretty sure there was a human murder in the Knox case.

Not worried about time/process/difficulty. Sometimes doing the right thing is hard. That's OK.
And I believe so-called "closure" is a fake concept, so that's off the table anyway.