Cases rising or dropping by you?

[Colleen27]

I'm fairly sure tracing isn't all it could be and I also find it curious that no cases (or very few) are being attributed to restaurants, airplanes, mass transit and what-have-you. It's really not that logical but then again, what is? We are seemingly full-on into a surge in our province and I've yet to know one single person personally or even reasonably closely associated, that has actually had Covid.

The quality of contact tracing varies a great deal from place to place. I suspect a lot of the reason we haven't seen cases linked to air travel, Disney World, or other tourist destinations is the weakness of contact tracing across multiple jurisdictions. But since restaurants (and salons and other primarily local businesses) pose a less challenging scenario.

I'm not sure if it is the same in Canada as here in the states, but for us, the state-level reporting can be sort of deceiving because the surges reflected in state case counts are often heavily concentrated in one local area within the state. About half of Michigan didn't have any cases to speak of when we were locked down in March and April - our state numbers were awful, among the worst in the nation, but the vast majority were in the Detroit area so if you lived in the northern part of the state it would have been very easy not to know anyone who had it. Even in my area, which isn't terribly far from Detroit, a lot of the people still don't know anyone who has had it. We've had about 40 cases so far, in a population of a bit over 4000. And it is the sort of small town where a lot of our neighbors' families have been here for generations and work or own businesses in town and rarely go anywhere else other than to the next town over where the "big" grocery store is (Kroger, rather than our independent place).

I’m wondering if we will see more cases in restaurants as we get deeper into the winter? Most of the restaurants by us have only had a few people inside and spread very far apart. Once they start to fill up more, I wonder what will happen.

I keep thinking about how there were a couple restaurants in China back in the Spring that reported cases of people getting infected from clear across the other side of the room due to the ventilation systems. This just stayed in my mind and I think for at least this winter we will stick to take out for the most part.

I also don’t think contract tracing is anywhere close to where it should be. Most of the time no one has a clue how they became infected.

In my area, restaurants have been fairly busy, particularly those that cater mainly to locals rather than tourists. I'm in a place where a lot of people, especially the old-timers who are regulars at the diner that had staff positives, don't "believe in" the virus - and spacing/capacity restrictions are unevenly followed at best. But the county hasn't connected outbreaks to those venues, and our contact tracing has been sufficient to connect outbreaks to other specific events and venues (and, I suspect, is particularly focused on trying to identify businesses that are a source of spread due to poorly followed safety protocols... one city got hit with a hefty fine for non-compliance after a relatively significant case cluster among employees in the city offices).

I do share your concern that things might worsen rapidly as winter sets in. Right now, everyone has their windows open and their ventilation systems set to fan/outside air. When it starts getting cold and things are closed up, I don't know that the relatively good luck we've had so far will hold.

 

[ronandannette]

The quality of contact tracing varies a great deal from place to place. I suspect a lot of the reason we haven't seen cases linked to air travel, Disney World, or other tourist destinations is the weakness of contact tracing across multiple jurisdictions. But since restaurants (and salons and other primarily local businesses) pose a less challenging scenario.

I'm not sure if it is the same in Canada as here in the states, but for us, the state-level reporting can be sort of deceiving because the surges reflected in state case counts are often heavily concentrated in one local area within the state. About half of Michigan didn't have any cases to speak of when we were locked down in March and April - our state numbers were awful, among the worst in the nation, but the vast majority were in the Detroit area so if you lived in the northern part of the state it would have been very easy not to know anyone who had it. Even in my area, which isn't terribly far from Detroit, a lot of the people still don't know anyone who has had it. We've had about 40 cases so far, in a population of a bit over 4000. And it is the sort of small town where a lot of our neighbors' families have been here for generations and work or own businesses in town and rarely go anywhere else other than to the next town over where the "big" grocery store is (Kroger, rather than our independent place).



In my area, restaurants have been fairly busy, particularly those that cater mainly to locals rather than tourists. I'm in a place where a lot of people, especially the old-timers who are regulars at the diner that had staff positives, don't "believe in" the virus - and spacing/capacity restrictions are unevenly followed at best. But the county hasn't connected outbreaks to those venues, and our contact tracing has been sufficient to connect outbreaks to other specific events and venues (and, I suspect, is particularly focused on trying to identify businesses that are a source of spread due to poorly followed safety protocols... one city got hit with a hefty fine for non-compliance after a relatively significant case cluster among employees in the city offices).

I do share your concern that things might worsen rapidly as winter sets in. Right now, everyone has their windows open and their ventilation systems set to fan/outside air. When it starts getting cold and things are closed up, I don't know that the relatively good luck we've had so far will hold.

Alberta is a vast province the size of Texas with a fairly small population (4.2 million); half of which reside in two major cities. Since the beginning the two cities have been reported individually (Edmonton & Calgary) and the rest of the province split into 3 regions - North, Central, South. We currently have 1,900 active cases with 1,063 in Edmonton (pop. 1.1 million), 645 in Calgary (pop. 1.4 million) and the other 192 flung far and wide across the rest of the province.

I live in Calgary but have friends and relatives in every region. None - and I mean none, have had Covid or report anyone close to them having had it. Nobody at my church has had it. Nobody at my or my DH's workplaces or any of our hundreds of contractors have reported having it. None of our FB friends or DS's crowd of young adults have reported having it. This would include all kinds of people - those who for their own reasons have voluntarily kept themselves in complete self-isolation all the way to those who seem reckless even by my own relatively relaxed standards. Zero; just none and that's since March. Our total cases to date are 19,211 with 281 fatalities. I'm no Covid-denier, not by a long shot, but I must admit, the whole thing does feel a little surreal.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

About half of Michigan didn't have any cases to speak of when we were locked down in March and April - our state numbers were awful, among the worst in the nation, but the vast majority were in the Detroit area so if you lived in the northern part of the state it would have been very easy not to know anyone who had it. Even in my area, which isn't terribly far from Detroit, a lot of the people still don't know anyone who has had it. We've had about 40 cases so far, in a population of a bit over 4000.

I still don't know anyone uber personal to me, I had an old high school acquaintance who mentioned it on FB, my cousin's wife's stepmom who had it (I've met her twice both related to my cousin's wedding), my mom's friend (I've only met a handful of times and haven't seen in years) and her husband (I've never met) and the probate lawyer for my grandmother's estate (I've never met).

I'm in a county of over 602K (the most populous in the state). People may not be telling that they've had it but at the same time it hasn't been like it has for other people where they know so many who have had it.

There was a news story about one of the last counties in my state to not have a case. They had their first one in August. The county's population is less than 1,500 people...in the entire county (considered the 2nd least populated county in the state)...that's less than the amount of people in my neighborhood which has over 600 homes (if you assume that each home as at least 2 knowing that some homes have more than 2 residents). To put that into even more perspective that county is 914 sq miles. My county is 480 sq miles. In the article it discussed that for many they were much less fearful of the virus itself than of being labeled the 'first case' because of the small population aspect. It also explained that for them they have a hard time relating to the couple of densely populated areas of the state. In a way though because there are so many people in my area I could go quite a lot longer without knowing someone where for the more rural parts of my state (which is most of the state) once the virus is found in a county you'd likely have a higher chance of actually knowing the person.

 

[bavaria]

The quality of contact tracing varies a great deal from place to place. I suspect a lot of the reason we haven't seen cases linked to air travel, Disney World, or other tourist destinations is the weakness of contact tracing across multiple jurisdictions. But since restaurants (and salons and other primarily local businesses) pose a less challenging scenario.

So let's go outside the US to Canada, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, South Korea, Hong Kong, Vietnam, Taiwan, all considered to have strong contact tracing.

And yet, there are studies that show the risk of catching COVID on the train, or on a plane, are extremely low. There is just a few cases of catching COVID from restaurants, namely that one study from Guangzhou from earlier this year. Compare this to SARS, where there were specific and widespread cases on airplanes, the risk seems very low now.

Certainly in the DACH countries, we have been eating inside for many months, and tables are not that spread apart. Remember too that guidance is 1-1,5 metres ie 3-4 feet, NOT the 2 metres used in the US. And yet.... the data just doesn't support catching it is high risk in restaurants. The RKI puts out very specific data every day, and the risk is still highest in group settings such as slaughterhouses, refugee housing, old age homes, family settings, large weddings, etc. And we've seen karaoke bars and night clubs be the risk in South Korea, and religious gatherings.

Nowhere does there seem to be any credible data that cases are rising due to air travel, train travel, or restaurant dining. Nor do there seem to be cases linked to the many theme parks which have opened around the world. Remember too that in most of Europe, there is no 'take out' food service until now so people are sitting in restaurants.

https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ...2020/2020-10-06-en.pdf?__blob=publicationFile
I've now spent months on trains, planes, shared rides, shared vehicles, ferries, sightseeing boats, hotels, n restaurants, markets, shops, swimming pools, sauna, fitness, etc and I feel that my personal risk is very low at this point.

 

[quandrea]

Alberta is a vast province the size of Texas with a fairly small population (4.2 million); half of which reside in two major cities. Since the beginning the two cities have been reported individually (Edmonton & Calgary) and the rest of the province split into 3 regions - North, Central, South. We currently have 1,900 active cases with 1,063 in Edmonton (pop. 1.1 million), 645 in Calgary (pop. 1.4 million) and the other 192 flung far and wide across the rest of the province.

I live in Calgary but have friends and relatives in every region. None - and I mean none, have had Covid or report anyone close to them having had it. Nobody at my church has had it. Nobody at my or my DH's workplaces or any of our hundreds of contractors have reported having it. None of our FB friends or DS's crowd of young adults have reported having it. This would include all kinds of people - those who for their own reasons have voluntarily kept themselves in complete self-isolation all the way to those who seem reckless even by my own relatively relaxed standards. Zero; just none and that's since March. Our total cases to date are 19,211 with 281 fatalities. I'm no Covid-denier, not by a long shot, but I must admit, the whole thing does feel a little surreal.

I was going to ignore this the first time you said it, but now you’ve put it out there twice. It’s these kinds of statements that make people think this pandemic is a hoax. I’m sure the families of the 1,057,756 people who are dead due to Covid might not appreciate your comments. Think about your reasoning here. Because you don’t personally know of anyone with Covid, you call into question the seriousness, severity and some might even say, the existence of the pandemic. That same line of reasoning might have me conclude that because I’ve never met anyone from, say, Hungary, that no Hungarians exist. Or perhaps because I’ve never seen a million dollars, that it doesn’t exist. The line of reasoning is absurd, but unfortunately and depressingly, all too common.

The fact is, you not knowing anyone with Covid probably just reflects your privilege. You live in a rich country, in a rich city. That alone puts you ahead of the game. Racialized populations and the poor are disproportionately represented in the Covid statistics. A sample size of your Facebook friends is hardly representative.

People are fed up with this situation. You know the way out of this? Science. Follow the guidelines—including the ones that require us to distance from our families during the coming holidays. Limit your contacts. Keep community transmission low so that going out is minimally dangerous—for everyone! Not just people who are healthy or people who are rich, or people who live in low transmission areas or people who live in single family dwellings!

Here in Ontario, our numbers have climbed high enough that we have a backlog in testing to the tune of 68 000. Testing is now only by appointment and only for those with symptoms. Toronto has stopped contact tracing. So basically, we have no idea how many cases there are anymore and we have no idea just how bad community spread is. What public health officials do know, is that community spread is high. Hospitalisations are rising, as are deaths.

But you don’t know anyone with Covid, so we’re all good. Do you see how potentially misleading your discourse is? It sows the seeds of doubt, which just compounds the challenges that surround getting people to follow public health guidelines, which just leads to a drawing out of this pandemic.

I wish people would take a little time to study epidemiology. It would be a far more beneficial use of one’s time than questioning the existence/seriousness of this pandemic.

 

[bavaria]

Results to mid-year 2020 Germany, Austria, Portugal have had fewer deaths year to date than in prior years. (And probably similar results for some other countries as well) Considering that the death rate has been virtually flat since June, even with rising cases, the trend will most likely continue to end of year.

That is not to make light of COVID, but the reality is that the restrictions in place may be out of proportion to the risk to the general population. (This of course varies by country, but Canada in general is seen as one of the 'safe' countries and in fact Germany welcomes Canadian travellers to enter with no need to quarantine or take a test)

I've said many times that the DACH countries apply light restrictions in very localized areas, if cases rise. And yet even now the deaths are not rising. With virtually everything open (bar a few exceptions), it's difficult to get worked up for 6-12 deaths/day per 85 million people, dying at an age higher than the usual average mortality age. All of my relatives 75+ (including those in their 90's) are living life as normal.

So while I understand people have different levels of risk, the figures certainly in much of the world do not support the extreme measures taken (and if one claims that the extreme measures prevented more deaths, that argument isn't holding true in much of the world. And look at places like Victoria, Australia, where the very extreme measures did not provide a good outcome)

 

[Colleen27]

I live in Calgary but have friends and relatives in every region. None - and I mean none, have had Covid or report anyone close to them having had it. Nobody at my church has had it. Nobody at my or my DH's workplaces or any of our hundreds of contractors have reported having it. None of our FB friends or DS's crowd of young adults have reported having it. This would include all kinds of people - those who for their own reasons have voluntarily kept themselves in complete self-isolation all the way to those who seem reckless even by my own relatively relaxed standards. Zero; just none and that's since March. Our total cases to date are 19,211 with 281 fatalities. I'm no Covid-denier, not by a long shot, but I must admit, the whole thing does feel a little surreal.

Wow, it is no wonder you don't know anyone with those numbers! Michigan has just a hair under 10 million people. We have over 130,000 cases (about 78,000 of them in the Detroit metro area) and almost 7000 (5400 in the DMA) deaths. The geographical concentration makes it so that rural residents often don't know anyone who has been affected, but the odds aren't anywhere near as slim as they are in your province.

 

[bavaria]

Wow, it is no wonder you don't know anyone with those numbers! Michigan has just a hair under 10 million people. We have over 130,000 cases (about 78,000 of them in the Detroit metro area) and almost 7000 (5400 in the DMA) deaths. The geographical concentration makes it so that rural residents often don't know anyone who has been affected, but the odds aren't anywhere near as slim as they are in your province.

Alberta (where she is from) has currently 40 per 100,000 active cases. Germany puts in restrictions at 50 per 100,000 so they are still considered low risk. I believe that the other poster is from ON, which has currently 36 per 100,000 active cases. Canada as a whole is 45 per 100,000, mostly driven by Quebec which is 96 per 100,000 so continues to be the main driver of national results. Manitoba, which at the start of this thread was doing very well, is also considered 'high risk' by German standards at 58 per 100,000 but this is skewed by the population as they have also only had 27 deaths total. (And before someone jumps on me for saying 'only', yes every death is sad, but I don't seem some posters concerned about the massive global poverty, or the delayed detection and treatment of other diseases which is causing deaths. Perspective matters, and in this case 27 deaths since February sounds ok, compared to '58 per 100,000' active cases)

https://covid-19-status.ca/

 

[EACarlson]

The state of WI and all of the counties around me have pretty much given up on contact tracing. My county is a week behind on notifying people that they're a "close contact" of someone that has tested positive. My son's daycare told us on a Saturday that he was a close contact and we didn't hear anything from County health until Wednesday, and that was at the beginning of the current rise in cases.

 

[bavaria]

Much of the English language media says that Berlin is out of CONTROL!!!!! We have 3,3 percent of all ICU beds full.

Deaths?
October 4
September 2
August 3
July 9
June 16
May 49
April 134
March 15

The 'harsh' restrictions which some of the media claim are to prevent shops from being open from 2300hrs to 0600hrs. Well, very few shops are open at that time, and gas station and pharmacies are exempt.

Also restaurants must close at 2300hrs. Um, Germany. Not much is open at that time, and nightclubs have not been open for months. So the restrictions are quite light. The concern is travelling raves, but they fall within the outdoor gathering rules. Private parties are an issue for spread, and looking at the various 'Kiez' (neighbourhoods) those are traditionally the ones with newer residents who have culturally more family and group gatherings. But I can tell you that certainly our dear Kurdish citizens have not been having their big wedding car parades down Unter den Linden like in past years, so people for the most part seem to be trying. (I say 'dear' with sincerity, as they add a lot of flavour to the Berlin scene, are generally very kind people, have contributed a lot of hard work over the decades, and German's favourite fast food is Turkish food)

Again, it's all about perspective, but based on the articles I read in English today and saw posted online Berlin is doomed.

 

[Jrb1979]

Alberta (where she is from) has currently 40 per 100,000 active cases. Germany puts in restrictions at 50 per 100,000 so they are still considered low risk. I believe that the other poster is from ON, which has currently 36 per 100,000 active cases. Canada as a whole is 45 per 100,000, mostly driven by Quebec which is 96 per 100,000 so continues to be the main driver of national results. Manitoba, which at the start of this thread was doing very well, is also considered 'high risk' by German standards at 58 per 100,000 but this is skewed by the population as they have also only had 27 deaths total. (And before someone jumps on me for saying 'only', yes every death is sad, but I don't seem some posters concerned about the massive global poverty, or the delayed detection and treatment of other diseases which is causing deaths. Perspective matters, and in this case 27 deaths since February sounds ok, compared to '58 per 100,000' active cases)

https://covid-19-status.ca/

I don't see what everyone is complaining about anymore. Here in Ontario just about everything is open again. The only real restrictions is on private gatherings. I'm ok with that as that is where most of the community spread is.

 

[bavaria]

I don't see what everyone is complaining about anymore. Here in Ontario just about everything is open again. The only real restrictions is on private gatherings. I'm ok with that as that is where most of the community spread is.

Except that borders are still closed including internal borders (I understand keeping the US one closed, but Germany still has a travel warning for Canada since they won't open up to Germans, who have a lower case per 100,000 than Canada. Germany however did open to Canada, no quarantine required, no restrictions)

Countries with good outcomes, like Japan and South Korea, are starting to open up to each other. Borders cannot stay closed in the long term.

 

[ronandannette]

I was going to ignore this the first time you said it, but now you’ve put it out there twice. It’s these kinds of statements that make people think this pandemic is a hoax. I’m sure the families of the 1,057,756 people who are dead due to Covid might not appreciate your comments. Think about your reasoning here. Because you don’t personally know of anyone with Covid, you call into question the seriousness, severity and some might even say, the existence of the pandemic. That same line of reasoning might have me conclude that because I’ve never met anyone from, say, Hungary, that no Hungarians exist. Or perhaps because I’ve never seen a million dollars, that it doesn’t exist. The line of reasoning is absurd, but unfortunately and depressingly, all too common.

The fact is, you not knowing anyone with Covid probably just reflects your privilege. You live in a rich country, in a rich city. That alone puts you ahead of the game. Racialized populations and the poor are disproportionately represented in the Covid statistics. A sample size of your Facebook friends is hardly representative.

People are fed up with this situation. You know the way out of this? Science. Follow the guidelines—including the ones that require us to distance from our families during the coming holidays. Limit your contacts. Keep community transmission low so that going out is minimally dangerous—for everyone! Not just people who are healthy or people who are rich, or people who live in low transmission areas or people who live in single family dwellings!

Here in Ontario, our numbers have climbed high enough that we have a backlog in testing to the tune of 68 000. Testing is now only by appointment and only for those with symptoms. Toronto has stopped contact tracing. So basically, we have no idea how many cases there are anymore and we have no idea just how bad community spread is. What public health officials do know, is that community spread is high. Hospitalisations are rising, as are deaths.

But you don’t know anyone with Covid, so we’re all good. Do you see how potentially misleading your discourse is? It sows the seeds of doubt, which just compounds the challenges that surround getting people to follow public health guidelines, which just leads to a drawing out of this pandemic.

I wish people would take a little time to study epidemiology. It would be a far more beneficial use of one’s time than questioning the existence/seriousness of this pandemic.

Your rant is unfair and uncalled for and your hostility is puzzling. I am not a Covid-denier nor do I expect for one second for anything I say to have undue influence on anyone. My comment about not knowing anyone with Covid is an anecdotal truth, not an indictment against the reality of the cases reported. My family and I have always been and intend to remain 100% compliant with every regulation.

I'm quite surprised to hear that Toronto has ceased contact-tracing. I was there two weeks ago and was required to provide contact information in every single restaurant I entered. And as for challenging assertions, well, grasp the fact that Toronto is not the "centre of the universe". Cases here are continuing at a rather steady rate actually but hospitializations and deaths are not spiking by any means. Currently 66 people out of 2,000'ish diagnosed active cases are in hospital and we have sadly had 281 fatalities out of 19,211 cases since March; about 27 of which have occurred since August. A small fraction of what's gone on in Ontario. Alberta processes 12,000+ tests per day, and testing is easily obtained through self-referral. Clearly your local experience shapes your perspective, it shouldn't surprise you that others are similarly influenced, even if the "view from here" is quite different.

 

[*DisneyDreamer]

Wisconsin is activating the field hospital that was set up back in March but hadn’t been used until this point. Need I say more? 7 months into the pandemic and we’re the worst we’ve been.

 

[ronandannette]

Rising. And it’s so depressing to me. Our population is now deaf to the pleas of our leaders to maintain public health guidelines. We’ve been asked not to gather with people outside our households for the upcoming thanksgiving weekend. From everything I’ve read, no one intends to listen. Our second surge is looking worse than our first. No one gets that we could see a better, faster return to normality of some kind if we’d heed the public health guidelines. People are either too stupid or too stubborn to listen. An epidemiologist here said last week that he’s amazed how terribly our education system has failed in the areas of critical thinking and science education. Have to say he’s absolutely right and that my faith in people is at an all time low. I’m pretty down today.

I'd say this has some bearing on your attitude as well. Not everywhere is having the same issues with compliance that your city is.

 

[Jrb1979]

Except that borders are still closed including internal borders (I understand keeping the US one closed, but Germany still has a travel warning for Canada since they won't open up to Germans, who have a lower case per 100,000 than Canada. Germany however did open to Canada, no quarantine required, no restrictions)

Countries with good outcomes, like Japan and South Korea, are starting to open up to each other. Borders cannot stay closed in the long term.

I don't expect them to stay closed forever. Once better contact tracing is in place for people traveling to here is in place it should help a lot. Outside of the borders being closed right now, I don't see the big deal on why so many are complaining about the way life is.

 

[quandrea]

Your rant is unfair and uncalled for and your hostility is puzzling. I am not a Covid-denier nor do I expect for one second for anything I say to have undue influence on anyone. My comment about not knowing anyone with Covid is an anecdotal truth, not an indictment against the reality of the cases reported. My family and I have always been and intend to remain 100% compliant with every regulation.

I'm quite surprised to hear that Toronto has ceased contact-tracing. I was there two weeks ago and was required to provide contact information in every single restaurant I entered. And as for challenging assertions, well, grasp the fact that Toronto is not the "centre of the universe". Cases here are continuing at a rather steady rate actually but hospitializations and deaths are not spiking by any means. Currently 66 people out of 2,000'ish diagnosed active cases are in hospital and we have sadly had 281 fatalities out of 19,211 cases since March; about 27 of which have occurred since August. A small fraction of what's gone on in Ontario. Alberta processes 12,000+ tests per day, and testing is easily obtained through self-referral. Clearly your local experience shapes your perspective, it shouldn't surprise you that others are similarly influenced, even if the "view from here" is quite different.

I am not in Toronto. I used Toronto as an example of the second surge that is occurring in many parts of the world. Your attitude that, “Everything’s fine here, nothing to worry about” is a common one. I read dozens of times a day that individuals have no personal evidence of the pandemic so there must be notproblem. That is a misconception and spreading it as truth is harmful. Say something enough times and people believe it. I am sick to death of the misinformation. That’s where my hostility is coming from. I have no wish to engage with you any more.

 

[bavaria]

I am not in Toronto. I used Toronto as an example of the second surge that is occurring in many parts of the world. Your attitude that, “Everything’s fine here, nothing to worry about” is a common one. I read dozens of times a day that individuals have no personal evidence of the pandemic so there must be notproblem. That is a misconception and spreading it as truth is harmful. Say something enough times and people believe it. I am sick to death of the misinformation. That’s where my hostility is coming from. I have no wish to engage with you any more.

I don't see it as saying that 'it's not a problem'. I see it as assessing relative risk, and commenting on whether they know anyone who has had the virus. Since the 'COVID and the rest of us' thread began earlier this year, I have seen many posters change their viewpoint on the virus. And since spring, what we know about the virus has changed.

The reality is that in many parts of the world, the risk of dying from the virus is very low, especially now. She posted the year to date deaths, but I am sure that the recent deaths are very low (just as I posted for Berlin as an example). Everyone has to assess their own risk and make their own personal decisions based on their own comfort level.

I do have an issue when people think that everyone should be reacting based on their own personal risk assessment. And that goes both ways - some people think that restrictions should be lessened, and others feel that restrictions should be tighter and people should 'behave better'.

(And on a side note, I would also like to point out that in 'normal' times I would be in very strong disagreement with some of the very same posters who are generally posting the same sentiments as me here in recent months. Ironically, there is not a politically driven consensus, as we seem to be on very different parts of the ideological spectrum normally, yet many of us have the same general viewpoints in regards to some aspects of the virus)

 

[ronandannette]

I am not in Toronto. I used Toronto as an example of the second surge that is occurring in many parts of the world. Your attitude that, “Everything’s fine here, nothing to worry about” is a common one. I read dozens of times a day that individuals have no personal evidence of the pandemic so there must be notproblem. That is a misconception and spreading it as truth is harmful. Say something enough times and people believe it. I am sick to death of the misinformation. That’s where my hostility is coming from. I have no wish to engage with you any more.

Please! I have never once, nor will I ever say such a thing. Nor am I spreading any misinformation. Each one of the numbers I have cited in this thread and any other are accurate to the date I typed them - feel free to check. Stepping back is probably a good idea for you. By your own description you are depressed and discouraged but spinning a false narrative around my comments is its own kind of misinformation and not helpful to either one of us.

 

[ronandannette]

I don't see it as saying that 'it's not a problem'. I see it as assessing relative risk, and commenting on whether they know anyone who has had the virus. Since the 'COVID and the rest of us' thread began earlier this year, I have seen many posters change their viewpoint on the virus. And since spring, what we know about the virus has changed.

The reality is that in many parts of the world, the risk of dying from the virus is very low, especially now. She posted the year to date deaths, but I am sure that the recent deaths are very low (just as I posted for Berlin as an example). Everyone has to assess their own risk and make their own personal decisions based on their own comfort level.

I do have an issue when people think that everyone should be reacting based on their own personal risk assessment. And that goes both ways - some people think that restrictions should be lessened, and others feel that restrictions should be tighter and people should 'behave better'.

(And on a side note, I would also like to point out that in 'normal' times I would be in very strong disagreement with some of the very same posters who are generally posting the same sentiments as me here in recent months. Ironically, there is not a politically driven consensus, as we seem to be on very different parts of the ideological spectrum normally, yet many of us have the same general viewpoints in regards to some aspects of the virus)

The bolded is very well put. Ultimately I side with conforming to whatever restrictions have been mandated by local authorities. Countries like Canada and Germany are fortunate to have (relatively) trustworthy federal and regional leadership and very fortunate that neither the decisions nor people's compliance have been overtly politicized.

I do also understand that this attitude is not so simple for people in other places. Places like the US for example, where many regions don't have any "official" restrictions or as in the case of our mutual friend in Honduras, where the restrictions are so severe as to literally be causing starvation.