car #1 or #2 people???

[DVC-Landbaron]

LB- Please do not try and whine about the Cubs. I have to deal with the Red Sox.

YIKES!!! I was wrong!! There is whining going on here at the DIS!! But it ain’t about Disney!! It’s about our ROTTEN teams!! And I feel your pain!! And I’m sure you can feel mine!!!!

Back in the 'Good Ole Days' during off season there were NEVER fireworks or night time parades in MK.

Yep!! That’s they way I remember it too. That’s one of the reasons I always went to WDW during the summer even when I wasn’t forced into it because of school schedules. It has always been a conscience decision. I like the twinkle!!

In the 90's with attendance up Disney started to do these night time activities during the week and weekends.

Yep!! Again, just as I remember.

Now with attendance down they have reduced the night time entertainment.

Well I don’t agree with the premise, but I see your point.

See the 'Good ole days' are never as good as it seems. Time makes things seem better than they were.

I know you had a point here and perhaps it was a little unfair of me. But I have been accused many times, and not only by you, of remembering the past with rose-colored-glasses. That’s why I took EVERY sentence in your paragraph and quoted it. Just to show you that I’m on the same page as you. That I remember the same things as you. And that the past doesn’t seem rosier than it really was, only rosier than today!!

Now Dave, I don’t want to split hairs but it’s real important to consider just what I say in my posts and what you might have inferred, that wasn’t implicitly stated.

I never, or at least not without much qualification, ever talk about hours other than Summer Hours!! Why? Cause I don’t know squat about them, that’s why!!! But I do know summer hours. I know them well!! I AM AN EXPERT!! I promise you! And my memory on the subject is absolutely impeccable!!

I say POSTING because I can almost gaurantee these will be extended

Yeah! I’m inclined to agree with you. But that just points to more “knuckleheadedness”. If they cared one whit about the “Disney Experience” they would know how important planning is to optimize that experience!! But they don’t care!! Or worse yet, they don’t know!! Remember!! Our friend, the guy Ei$ner picked to head the parks, our own Paul Pre$$ler NEVER set foot inside a Disney park until he got the job there. Now that’s someone who I trust with the SHOW!!!

I do not have an issue with building C ticket rides - spinners for the kids and DinoRama.

Neither do I!! I think we need “A” thru “E” and in EPCOT a couple of “F”s (long, pavilion style)!! But I still have a problem with Dinorama. Not it’s size or scope. It’s simply that it is NOT Disney. Now, you can’t have seen it and claim that Disney has had anything to do with it. Please Dave!! I enjoy the talk, but in order to enjoy the talk I have to think there is some logic and intelligence behind it!! And if you say you’ve seen Dino-rama and think, for one single solitary second, that it is within Disney standards… well…

Luckily, I think I know you better than that. It is the concept you don’t mind. Me too. That of “B”, “C” or even a small “D” ticket ride or attraction. And I agree!! And can we also agree that they failed miserably in the implementation of this concept? WHEW!!! GOOD! Then we can go on!!

yes Test Track ( I know I will hear about this one!)

OK!! Just so you recognize this yourself!! We’re all allowed our ‘guilty’ pleasures!! Mine is that stupid, doesn’t fit in anywhere in EPOCT cooling station!! I CAN’T WALK BY IT WITHOUT STOPPING IN!!! It’s like “Disney heroin” for me!! When I’m in EPCOT – I NEED A FIX!!!

Also I do not see the issue with building all the hotels.

Can we save this for another day? I heard grumbling and the mention of tar and feathers if the LandBaron brings up this Caste System again!!! And that was from the backseat of Car #3!!!!

I am also going to come out of the closet

TOO MUCH INFORMATION!!!!

It is time for Eisner to go. When Wall Street is questioning the leadership then nothing good can come of it - even if you might be the right person to turn it around.

WHAT!!!! After all this and we’re on the same page!!!

I feel like Allen Sherman!! “Mother, Father, kindly disregard this letter!”

 

[JeffH]

they failed miserably in the implementation of this concept

Actually the implementation was excellent, perfect, right on theme (if you know the theme of Dinoland). The problem was with the theme itself, it was totally non-Disney-like: tacky, cheap, rip-off, distracting (annoying).

Strangely, though, I love the area, while hating all the attractions (What?!?).
The layout is 'fun', the colors are festive. the area is busy (alive), and the 'carnys' do not spoil it by bugging you.
But
I think the games are too expensive considering it is 'pretending' to be an attraction and the prizes are generic (cr*p). A buck per adult and .25 per child would be better than $2/head.
I hated Primal Whirl...it's everything I hate about roller coasters, jerky, it is slow and there are no good drops (I love real deep drops), I though I hurt my back bad during one of the spinning jerks (no back support). And that dinging is annoying.
The spinning dinos was stupid and worthless, the up and down controls were in the back and who wants to spin in a dinosaur anyway (compared to Aladdin's carpet and Dumbo, which we both love)

 

[Pinnie]

Standing Ovation for D-R!!!

Excellent post!!!!! You make a lot of valid points.

Sorry I am coming into this discussion late, but I have been at Drum Corp finals in Madison, WI (WTG, CAVS!!) and just got back to lurking here.

On the subject of August hours, one thing I would like to point out is that WAY back in the 70s, kids didn't go back to school until AFTER Labor Day. Trust me on this, I was teaching back then, too! Kids in many FL districts started back to school last week. Following that trend, districts up here in MI are starting back beginning next week. If Disney is "family focused", as everyone here seems to point out, it stands to reason they are aware of the lack of families that will be there in August and are adjusting the hours accordingly.

I am willing to bet that next year, Aug. 4 - 10 crowds will be high. Drum Corp finals are returning to Orlando. That packs in crowds, since the Corps perform at EPCOT during the week. I know *I* will be there with my family and so will a LOT of others!!!

Pin
remember the magic
DVC/BCV 2002

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

I am willing to bet that next year, Aug. 4 - 10 crowds will be high. Drum Corp finals are returning to Orlando. That packs in crowds, since the Corps perform at EPCOT during the week. I know *I* will be there with my family and so will a LOT of others!!!

So what are you willing to "bet"? What are you willing to put up that if Ei$ner is still in charge we will see the same hours (or perhaps less) NO MATTER HOW IT PACKS IN THE CROWDS!!!???

See, attendance doesn't matter. The experience doesn't matter. The show doesn't matter. That's all spin!! All that matters is the next quarterly.

And his golden parachute of course!!!

 

[Pinnie]

You know, LB, after I posted this and read your response, I realized you are absolutely RIGHT! The hours WON'T change next Aug and Disney will know this. All those fans will be packed into the parks during the day and won't be NEAR them at night because they are all going to be at the Citrus Bowl for Finals Week.

Great time for you to go.

pin
remember the magic
DVC/BCV 2002

 

[Bob O]

This has been a very interesting discussion but in the end it seems some people will justify anything disney does, no matter what it is or how it impacts people who visit the resort less frequently than others.
Some people go to wdw primarily for the theme park experience and the loss of hours has a major impact and dont want to be nickled and dimed to death by buffet meals or mini golfing. They would like to get to the parks early(sorry cant do so no EE) and then maybe rest and then visit the park till late at night(sorry parks close early but you can gladly spend additional money at DTD if you like).
And with the actions of the current regime over the past 5 yrs why is there any reason to believe things will all of a sudden get better??? Besdes MS(which if rumors are true its already been reduced in size and scope)there isnt much on the horizon at all in regards to any new attractions. Of course we can always hope for a new show at MGM telling us how great ABC's lineup is this fall. And who really believes that any of Dave O's list will be acted upon??? Maybe if eisner is replaced???

 

[d-r]

Hi again,
Just a quick first post to explain something, when I wrote that I think that the internet sets people up for disapointment I wasn't thinking about the griping, I was thinking about the posts about code rates, pixie dusts, upgrades, etc, that only suckers pay rack rates. I was thinking about the person who pays $250 a night for a room to find out that other people are paying $99, or the honey moon couple who didn't get the complimentary champaigne or whatever, or the family who didn't get to be the parade marshalls. Mostly though, I was thinking about the rates.

DR

 

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by d-r
Hi again,
Just a quick first post to explain something, when I wrote that I think that the internet sets people up for disapointment I wasn't thinking about the griping, I was thinking about the posts about code rates, pixie dusts, upgrades, etc, that only suckers pay rack rates. I was thinking about the person who pays $250 a night for a room to find out that other people are paying $99, or the honey moon couple who didn't get the complimentary champaigne or whatever, or the family who didn't get to be the parade marshalls. Mostly though, I was thinking about the rates.

DR

Does the Internet need to be involeved for people to see or notice this?

Really though only suckers do pay rack rate... right?

 

[d-r]

All right, this will be a dissertation.

Originally posted by DVC-Landbaron
OK!! I have read this entire thread twice now and I am ready!!! And I found that “Chicken” reference my Captain! And just like Lucy, you got some splainin’ to do!! Rustle feathers indeed!!!!

Mr. R (or should it be Mr. D-R? Hmmm?)

Well, if you really want to know, it is Dr., but D.R. has been my nick name for long before that, and it isn't typically used with Mr. or Dr.

I cut the lord of the rings stuff.

I think that if Disney were producing top-notch ‘stuff’ all the LandBarons, Frozen people, Mr. Matts and AVs in the world could not out shout the masses.

Honestly, I don't think you are. What intrigues me is that you continue to go for three weeks at a time (so it must not be that bad). And I've tried to be clear that there are things I am not happy about and that I wish were different. However, I recognize that there is a reality about it. I heard on npr this morning that American Airlines made some serious cut backs. NBC news last night had a report from Universal Studios, didn't mention Disney but talked about the slow down in tourism, espcially in international visiters, which is down 11% nation-wide. They mentioned that France and Spain have more international visitors now than the US, and that the national parks have had room vacancies this summer, which is apparently unheard of. Again, we know from the stock report that attendance is down. How is it that at a time when revenue and attendance is down that it is feasible to operate at previous levels?

So you are telling me that when the MK closes EVERY night at 10:00 during July it is solely bases on attendance and has nothing whatsoever to do with cost cutting and profit boosting?

Aboslutely not. Attendance and cost cutting / profit boosting go hand in hand. If attendance is down, you have to cut costs, don't you?

And that the crowds were LESS this July than say in 1972 or 1975 or 1981 or 1985 or 1991 or 1995 or 1998 or… Whoops!! Here’s when the crowds evidently started to go away because that’s when they started cutting hours in July!!!! Is that what you’re saying?

Actually, I'm sure the crowds are higher than in the 70s for the entire resort, but as has been pointed out, there are four theme parks, downtown disney/ pleasure island, etc. etc. now. I thought that I read from the quarterly report that attendance is down from last year, and I think I remember that last year was down from the year before. I keep seeing all kinds of information that says that tourism is down. I've said before that I don't know all the parameters here, but yeah, it sure seems like they are down. And again, what makes you think that they didn't figure out in 1998 that the point between operating expenses and guest satisfaction, in terms of park hours, had been passed? (FWIW, I think the least crowded I have ever seen wdw was in Oct. of 1998). Maybe they figured out that it wasn't worth keeping the MK open based upon the data from that year.

NO!!! That is wrong!! TOTALLY WRONG!!! It is merely a side benefit for those who preserver to the very end (of which I am one). Now please understand the concept. It is the same concept that is employed with EE. And even though I never used it personally I was greatly impacted by its elimination!! Same as you, whether you know it or not, are impacted by the reduction of hours (if you visit in the summer) no matter if you stayed late or not!!!

I understand your point about options, but I maintain that I was absolutely right. Ultimately, you would like for the MK hours to be longer so that you can enjoy the parks with a lower crowd. Isn't that right? I mean isn't that the result of these "options" (and I maintain that people still have a lot of options once the MK closes at 10 on a week day).

Cutback!!!?? Necessary!!?? Just what are they cutting Mr. R? You seem to think that they are cutting expenditures. Saving a few bucks, eh? You’re as mixed up as Ei$ner!! He thinks he’s selling you a ticket, some plush toys, a Pecos Bill burger and a soda!! And the hours, cast members, and paint is merely considered overhead, which can be added in good times and reduced in bad times. He, and you are terrible wrong!!

Well, I'm not cutting anything, of course. I am not a business person, but I hear Father Guido Sarducci in my head "Supply. Demand. You buy something and sell it for more." If you don't make as much money, because there are less people there, you can't operate as many hours.

I see it in a totally different light. They are cutting their product! They are cutting what they used to be so good at selling. And we bought and bought and even bought some more. We bought with our dollars and more importantly we bought with our return business and most important we bought with our FAVORABLE (alomist gushing) word of mouth!! Yes sir!! They sold us an experience. They sold us magic. D-R!! They sold us a SHOW!!! And we ALL bought it. Lock stock and barrel!! And the SHOW is what they are cutting!! Not mere expenditures!!

And that show costs money, land barron. Does it not?

Really!!?? Gee! I don’t see any!!
Again we disagree. In the middle of the Great Depression did Walt “listen “ to Roy, or did he make Snow White anyway (mortgaging himself, his company and even Roy to the hilt!)? During the gas crisis and that poor economic time of the late seventies early eighties, did they “listen” to the Roy types? Or did they add the Electric Light Parade and extend hours to 1:00 a.m. AND open EPCOT, which cost over a billion at the time!!??

How many times did Walt miss on these bets? How many times did Walt loose everything and go bankrupt?

Is it because there is a tremendous amount of complaining regarding the current administration’s philosophical choices lately? Cause if it is, then yes!! I have to agree with you!! The truth does hurt sometimes. And I can understand that as you see the reality of the situation you may want to blame the conversation vehicle instead of the ones who are truly at fault. It’s a very old problem that stretches way back to the ancient Greeks. You know, don’t kill the messenger!!

I don't blame the complaining on this rumors board for the economy and downtown in tourism.

Yeah! I know. Not many rumors at all!! I wish there were, but it’s kind of hard to dream those impossible dreams when your job may be in the dumper the next day!!

Yes, exactly. Thank about that sentance.

How many jobs were cut after 9/11 at wdw? Aren't most of those folks back at work now?

But I do take issue with your phrasing. And maybe it was a mistake. Moaning? Yes!! Good lord, there’s a bunch of well deserved moaning!! But whining!?!? I really don’t see it. And I’m not being purposely obtuse. I really don’t!!! Please let me know, even in a PM, when you see it! Cause, quite frankly, I don’t!

Also let me know if this post made you feel flamed, because that was NOT my intent!!

I don't feel flamed at all. I just don't see things as bleakly as you do. I think this is a bad time, I wish that it wasn't, I think things will get better. I think that there is a lot to enjoy right now at wdw and look forward to going back in Sept. I guess I'm an optimist over this, or naive if you would rather. I don't think that griping over every possible thing, or looking for negatives in every possible thing (RE: CBR) is going to do much good, and I'm happier not to join in it.

You know, truthfully, I understand your view on this and I don't think I want to bother to continue debating it, because I'm not sure what point there is to continuing.

DR

 

[BRERALEX]

in the whole grand scheme of life a poor guy who pays rack rate is not a sucker. a sucker is a person who calls him one.

some people have so much money they care not for rates cause whats the difference anyways

 

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by BRERALEX
in the whole grand scheme of life a poor guy who pays rack rate is not a sucker. a sucker is a person who calls him one.

some people have so much money they care not for rates cause whats the difference anyways

Wasn't aware that we were talking about people of wealth that had no care as to the price of items...

But if I'm a sucker for not paying rack rate and not agreeing to the first price that someone tells me especially in cases where its customary to bargain/haggle for the price of a service or item...

Then I'll take that label I guess...

 

[d-r]

Originally posted by Walt's Frozen Head
My point was that the numbers we saw in another thread suggested that the high end Orlando hotels were getting back on track, while the low end was suffering, so it was reasonable that Disney, who sells to the low end, would see less rebound than Universal. Further, that it was Eisner's decision to "strip down" the Magic to compete in that low-end market, in the first place.

I was trying to make the point that the market now saw Disney as less special, saw it now as a discount item to be bought at the last minute because you knew discounts would become available; and that was a predictable conclusion to a choice made years ago (and consistently since) concerning hotels. I made no value judgement of the experience itself.

I'm positing whether Disney had a perfect number of hotels and were blindsided by cruel cruel fate or Disney built too much and grabbed at a particularly fickle section of the market that was never their core audience until Eisner's time, and was now reaping what they've sown in closed resorts and bargain prices.

That's a question I'd be interested in hearing different answers to, and I won't tell anyone if you stay off-site or not.

-WFH

Now, this is an interesting question, and I'm not sure what I think about it. I'll have to think about it for a while. I will say this. I personally don't really like the value resorts, but I'm glad that they are there. I think that they have a real purpose. I'm leaning towards cruel fate - the economy is bad in general, but tourism is particularly bad. I'm not sure if someone should have seen that coming or not, but I think that if I was planning for that, then the idea of making the value resorts would probably seem like a very good idea. Is it over-saturated? I guess it probably is.

The last minute wait-for-a-sale has been the demise of the disney store, too, imho. I think that is why there is less of a selection there now, because things like clothes are more seasonal. I think that waiting for a sale is a sign of the economy.

DR

 

[BRERALEX]

i dont pay rack rate im not a sucker. i said if someone calls soemone else a sucker for paying rack rate their a sucker. becuase who are they to call someone a sucker? real simple

 

[raidermatt]

Again, we know from the stock report that attendance is down. How is it that at a time when revenue and attendance is down that it is feasible to operate at previous levels?

Then please, oh please, explain why hours have steadily dropped over the last 5 years when attendance has only dropped over the last 1 1/2.

Attendance and cost cutting / profit boosting go hand in hand. If attendance is down, you have to cut costs, don't you?

This is why I accepted the cuts in hours made last year and early this year.

However, it fails to explain why hours are being cut further this October than last (by another 11%). Your above comment only explains this if this October's attendance is going to be lower than last October's. Given the screaching halt that tourism came to after 9/11, I truly find this difficult to believe.

I maintain that people still have a lot of options once the MK closes at 10 on a week day

Are you honestly saying that closing MK earlier, so a guest can take a bus over to DD and shop is what most guests WANT? The guest who want to go to DD have that option. The guests who want to stay in MK have had their option taken away.

If you want to argue it from a business pov, at least there is some basis for it (at least as long as the "WDW maybe sinking but so are some other places" theory holds...). But to argue that from a guest satisfaction pov, DD is an equal option for most guests to later park hours really is hard to figure out.

 

[d-r]

Europa-
I'm not expressing myself very clearly here, and I apologize for that. Bare with me. What I am trying to say is that people get disapointed when they read on the internet about somebody else getting something cheaper (or more special) than they did, or that they get built up to expect something that they may not get and are disapointed.

Don't get hung up on the sucker thing.

DR

 

[d-r]

Originally posted by raidermatt

Then please, oh please, explain why hours have steadily dropped over the last 5 years when attendance has only dropped over the last 1 1/2.


This is why I accepted the cuts in hours made last year and early this year.

However, it fails to explain why hours are being cut further this October than last (by another 11%). Your above comment only explains this if this October's attendance is going to be lower than last October's. Given the screaching halt that tourism came to after 9/11, I truly find this difficult to believe.

Matt, I'm saying that they are trying to find the regression equation between guest satisfaction and operating expenses in predicting park hours. I don't know what the data are, and I've said before that they may have gone to far in the direction of operating expenses (although I maintain that there is a cap here based upon revenue and attendance). As I've said before, how does anyone know that the year 1998 went to far the other direction? Or what the learned from last October's data?

I really am confident that when the crowd levels are high enough that they extend the hours beyond the posted ones, which are based upon expectations from data like resort bookings, etc.

Are you honestly saying that closing MK earlier, so a guest can take a bus over to DD and shop is what most guests WANT? The guest who want to go to DD have that option. The guests who want to stay in MK have had their option taken away.

No, actually I'm saying that 10 on a weekend night during a summer when crowds are lower than in the past is probably enough for most families not to be disapointed - they will be happy to go back to their resort and enjoy their vacation, let the kids swim and wind down and put them to bed so that they can get up and do something else tomorrow. And I use the fact that the parks are less crowded later at night (and hence the reason that other guests would like for them to remain open - less crowded) as the evidence to indicate that I am right. The point here is not the guests would rather do something else, the point is that there is enough something else's that MOST guests won't mind.

I'm sorry if you don't think that "not minding" is enough reason to justify it, but there comes a point where the attendance in the park is not enough to generate revenue to pay the expenses of keeping the park open. So, I think they have walked that line between guest satisfaction and operating expenses for the majority of guests.

Of course we all want to visit the MK when the crowds are low, and in fact, I would love it for them to keep it open later. Heck I wish they would open it just for me, but then it would probably cost me a whole lot.

If you want to argue it from a business pov, at least there is some basis for it (at least as long as the "WDW maybe sinking but so are some other places" theory holds...). But to argue that from a guest satisfaction pov, DD is an equal option for most guests to later park hours really is hard to figure out.

Actually, I don't think I mentioned downtown disney, but you know what, there are other options. And yeah, going to downtown disney is one of them - along with the resort pool, pleasure island, mini golf, a decent meal, cirque, disney quest, the boardwalk, etc. Last May we we were at wlv and the MK closed at 6 on week nights. We enjoyed the hot tub, good drinks and food, watching the water pagent, relaxing and enjoying our evenings a couple of nights, and went to epcot and mgm and dtd on others.

And now that you bring it up, I just realized something. We get there on a Friday in Sept. and the MK closes at 6, so we realized that after it closes would be a really good time to go to market place to get some new toys from the new toy store. So maybe you do have a point about downtown disney

 

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by d-r
Europa-
I'm not expressing myself very clearly here, and I apologize for that. Bare with me. What I am trying to say is that people get disapointed when they read on the internet about somebody else getting something cheaper (or more special) than they did, or that they get built up to expect something that they may not get and are disapointed.

Don't get hung up on the sucker thing.

DR

I agree to a point...the Internet has made more people aware of something's that they never knew before. Remember we live in the Information age...this age is ruled by Information. The more that you have the better equipped you are to deal with the World

Jealousy, one upping, or keeping up with the Jones's is a human trait. We are born with it, it seems. You can drive down the road and see someone driving a car that you want or living in a nicer house then you have. You can go to a restaurant and eat chicken where the guy next to you has a big juicy steak and want that too. Go to the grocery store and see the person next to you getting the expensive Ice-Cream Sandwiches why you get the store brand.

Me personally I'd prefer to have this type of information that Internet offers. I'm not a penny pincher or even consider myself thrifty but if I can get the information to where I pay 50 bucks for a room instead of 100 then I'm going to use it.

..and I'm sorry but for the average person that does not look for these types of offers/deals/codes is a ......

 

[raidermatt]

 

[Pinnie]

Rock ON DR!!!!!!!!

I don't have to say a thing, you are quite eloquent!!!

Dh works for one of the "Big 3" and has for nearly 27 yrs. I wish when times were tough for the auto companies, they would have followed the LB and some of the other's thinking around here and didn't make all those cuts. Heaven knows I would have had LOT more DVC points now.

Pin
remember the magic
DVC/BCV 2002

 

[raidermatt]

Matt, I'm saying that they are trying to find the regression equation between guest satisfaction and operating expenses in predicting park hours.

Maybe they are. Maybe they just haven't figured it out yet.

However, just because they have an equation, it doesn't make it correct. Their equation may tell them they've got it right, then they are left to scratch their heads when attendance doesn't recover as they thought it would. How do they account for guest satisfaction in their equation? Really, the ultimate determining factor is do the guests return in a year or two or three. Using your logic, if they don't return, you must cut hours because attendance is down again.

I don't know what the data are, and I've said before that they may have gone to far in the direction of operating expenses

Since their only response so far has been to continue to cut expenses, they apparently feel they have not gone too far.

I really am confident that when the crowd levels are high enough that they extend the hours beyond the posted ones, which are based upon expectations from data like resort bookings, etc.

Two problems with this.

1- Potential guests make decisions based on the information they have. Their primary source for this is posted hours. Last minute extensions do benefit guests who are actually there, but the benefit is generally lost on those who are in the planning stages.

2- The extensions have not been very widespread lately. Very few if any have happened over the Summer. Factoring in extensions as reason to plan a trip just can't be done.

No, actually I'm saying that 10 on a weekend night during a summer when crowds are lower than in the past is probably enough for most families not to be disapointed...And I use the fact that the parks are less crowded later at night (and hence the reason that other guests would like for them to remain open - less crowded) as the evidence to indicate that I am right. The point here is not the guests would rather do something else, the point is that there is enough something else's that MOST guests won't mind.

Define most.

First, Zero guests benefit from earlier hours, and at least a significant number are directly hurt by them. Even if 80% leave by 10pm anyway, 20% don't. That's a lot of guests

Second, ALL guests are hurt at least indirectly by the decreased hours. Most of the guests that used to use the 10pm-Midnight period will now try to fit their activities into the time before 10pm, making the park more crowded for everyone.

there comes a point where the attendance in the park is not enough to generate revenue to pay the expenses of keeping the park open. So, I think they have walked that line between guest satisfaction and operating expenses for the majority of guests.

Its good that you are so confident. I look at a 6% drop since 1999, and a slower recovery from last year than their competition, and I see the distinct possibility that they are wrong. They sacrificed long-term guest satisfaction in an attempt to bolster short term profits. You are confident this will not hurt them. I am not. You think that there was enough excess satisfaction that the removal of some will not have a negative impact. I disagree. However, if I'm wrong, attendance will recover along with the economy. I just think that the fact that its starting to fall behind the economic recovery is rather telling.

And yeah, going to downtown disney is one of them - along with the resort pool, pleasure island, mini golf, a decent meal, cirque, disney quest, the boardwalk, etc.

AGAIN, these options exist whether the park closes at 4pm or 3am. How is closing the parks earlier not reducing the options?

Last May we we were at wlv and the MK closed at 6 on week nights. We enjoyed the hot tub, good drinks and food, watching the water pagent, relaxing and enjoying our evenings a couple of nights, and went to epcot and mgm and dtd on others.

That's great, there are lots of options, EXCEPT to stay in MK. And I think its important to note the biggest reason WDW exists is the parks.

If we follow your logic, it would mean closing MK at 4pm would not be a problem since all of those other options are available then too. (In fact, there's even more, like renting a boat...)

I just realized something. We get there on a Friday in Sept. and the MK closes at 6, so we realized that after it closes would be a really good time to go to market place to get some new toys from the new toy store. So maybe you do have a point about downtown disney

Sure, you have to do the best you can with your vacation based on the options available. However, that doesn't change the fact that you have fewer options. Its fine if you don't care that the MK option is not there, but you do have to acknowledge that the parks are the biggest draw for WDW, and MK is the most attended park. Therefore, there are going to be a lot of guests who consider the lost option a negative to consider when making future plans.