Canon - full frame or cropped?

[Keyser]

I didn't realize this board was on Disboards until today - I'm hoping you all can give me some advice... I'll save the long background, but will summarize that I'm looking to spend some money on a good DSLR camera. For various reasons, I can't really try these out before buying, and will need to buy soon, so I'm looking for some advice.

I've narrowed the purchase down to either the Canon 70D (this is a cropped frame) or the 6D (full frame). My original intention was to go with the 70D, but get high-end EF lenses so that eventually if we move to the full-frame, we can use them. The problem is that after looking at lenses a lot, I am convinced that if I get the 70D, I'm going to want to go with a couple of the EF-S lenses, which won't work on a full-frame camera.

The 70D and its lenses are about half the price of the 6D and the lenses I'd get for it (we're talking cost-of-a-vacation level money...), so I'd obviously rather save the significant chunk of money if possible. Although flash isn't the most important thing, the fact that the 70D has a built-in flash also should save money in the short term. I'm sure we'd get good use out of the 70D for a few years. However, I can also see wanting in about 5 years to move to a full-frame camera, in which case all the money spent on EF-S lenses is wasted. The alternative is to bite the bullet and pay now for the more expensive setup that I know will last us long-term.

If anyone has any insight/suggestions, I'd appreciate it...

 

[mom2rtk]

Which lenses are you considering for the 70D? Good glass does pretty well at holding its value.

What do you like to shoot?

Some people who eventually go on to full frame like to keep a crop sensor camera around for when they need extra reach.

 

[havoc315]

Why are you convinced you would definitely want to ever upgrade to full frame?
While I love full frame, many great photographers are happy with crop.
And today's best crop cameras can match or surpass full frame cameras of five years ago.

No matter what camera you get, the body will lose 80% of it's value over 5 years.
But lenses will retain their re-sale value better, especially if you buy used in the first place.

The best lens in my collection is 28 years old and sells on the used market for more than the original retail pricing.

 

[firemanchip]

I just upgraded from a T3i to the 70D and man I`m loving it so far. I`ll probably eventually go full frame (maybe) but for right now I`m really enjoying what the 70D is giving me.

 

[mousehockey37]

It seems as though you have your mind made up, but you're having a hard time convincing yourself of your choice. I, myself, have a T3. I'm happy with it, and it does what I want it to do.

Remember, it's not always the equipment. It's the creativeness of the person pushing the button that MAKES the perfect shot happen. Not the equipment.

If you have a budget for a crop sensor, then stick with it, don't push yourself into something you can't afford. Kinda like car shopping, if you're able to afford a Ford, but are looking at Porsche's, you're in the wrong lot!

 

[Keyser]

Thanks for the replies. I guess I don't know for sure that I'll want full-frame eventually, it just feels weird that I'll be investing some (significant) money into a system that won't necessarily last if we do want to switch over. To invest this much money, I'd like to think that it's going to be a long-term investment rather than a 5-year one (I know the camera body might get replaced, it's the lenses I wonder about).

A main interest is to shoot some wide-ish angle (landscape) photos, which is part of why there's a question here (the wide-angle EF lenses aren't so wide on a cropped, and the wide-angle EF-S lenses won't work on a full-frame). We'll also have some general everyday photography.

Oh, the main lenses I'm looking at in the cropped version are the Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM for wide-angle and EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM for "normal" shooting. I have no doubts about these lenses on their own, it's just that if I ever upgrade the body to a full-frame, they're useless.

 

[cisobe]

I went from a crop to a full frame a few years ago. If you plan our your lens purchases you should be fine as you should be able to sell you old lenses without losing too much money.

My previous camera was a 7D, and a 40d. I bought the EF-S17-55mm and the EF-S 10-24 mm to cover the wide end. But bought a 24-105, 70-200 2.8 is and a handfull of EF primes. I bought a 5D3 a couple years ago.

I was going to sell the 10-22mm and 17-55mm but decided to keep my 7d as a backup body some I held on to my EF-S lenses.

I currently don't have an ultra wide for my 5d3 which is OK as I rarely shoot ultra wide. I do miss my 17-55 2.8is as it covered a useful range and was a 2.8 with is so it was very good in low light. The 24-105 f4 is is a decent walk around on full frame. High iso performance is great on my 5d3 so bumping iso higher to compensate for a f4 max aperture is OK, but 7 do miss the ext r a stop of light. To remedy this cheaply, I picked up a 35 f2 is.

Anyway, just think out your lens purchases, and don't worry too much because lenses do hold their prices pretty well, and you should be able to recoup 70-80% of what you paid for them if you do decide to upgrade to full frame.

 

[mom2rtk]

Oh, the main lenses I'm looking at in the cropped version are the Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM for wide-angle and EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM for "normal" shooting. I have no doubts about these lenses on their own, it's just that if I ever upgrade the body to a full-frame, they're useless.

Those lenses are not useless if you change to FF. They both hold their value really well and you could sell them when the time comes.

I had the Tokina UWA but decided I wanted the Canon one instead. I bought a used Canon 10-22 on Ebay, used it for a year, then sold it for a few dollars more than I paid for it.

 

[WilsonFlyer]

I didn't realize this board was on Disboards until today - I'm hoping you all can give me some advice... I'll save the long background, but will summarize that I'm looking to spend some money on a good DSLR camera. For various reasons, I can't really try these out before buying, and will need to buy soon, so I'm looking for some advice.

I've narrowed the purchase down to either the Canon 70D (this is a cropped frame) or the 6D (full frame). My original intention was to go with the 70D, but get high-end EF lenses so that eventually if we move to the full-frame, we can use them. The problem is that after looking at lenses a lot, I am convinced that if I get the 70D, I'm going to want to go with a couple of the EF-S lenses, which won't work on a full-frame camera.

The 70D and its lenses are about half the price of the 6D and the lenses I'd get for it (we're talking cost-of-a-vacation level money...), so I'd obviously rather save the significant chunk of money if possible. Although flash isn't the most important thing, the fact that the 70D has a built-in flash also should save money in the short term. I'm sure we'd get good use out of the 70D for a few years. However, I can also see wanting in about 5 years to move to a full-frame camera, in which case all the money spent on EF-S lenses is wasted. The alternative is to bite the bullet and pay now for the more expensive setup that I know will last us long-term.

If anyone has any insight/suggestions, I'd appreciate it...

Let me cut to the chase just like you did.

I just fought this exact battle with myself over on Photography on the Net (THE premier Canon forum on the internet). You can go over there and look at my threads.

Bottom line. I'm STILL holding out on FF. I upgraded from a 60D to a 70D. Why? I want the feature set of the 70D on a FF sensor and we're just not quite there yet (not in my price range, anyway, like the 6D is). In my case, I would have had to throw out the baby with the bathwater and start over with glass. I have a nice collection of glass but most of it is EF-S. The 6D (FEATURE wise) was just not enough to entice me to do it.

I think we're still 12-24 months from a 70D feature equivalent 6DII. My plan is to start collecting EF glass in the interim so the blow isn't quite as big when it finally does happen (and it will).

You will LOVE the 70D. It is by far and away the best camera I have ever owned and I've owned a lot.

RUN to your local camera store and buy one with the 18-135 STM. You will never look back.

-bob

 

[WilsonFlyer]

Thanks for the replies. I guess I don't know for sure that I'll want full-frame eventually, it just feels weird that I'll be investing some (significant) money into a system that won't necessarily last if we do want to switch over. To invest this much money, I'd like to think that it's going to be a long-term investment rather than a 5-year one (I know the camera body might get replaced, it's the lenses I wonder about).

A main interest is to shoot some wide-ish angle (landscape) photos, which is part of why there's a question here (the wide-angle EF lenses aren't so wide on a cropped, and the wide-angle EF-S lenses won't work on a full-frame). We'll also have some general everyday photography.

Oh, the main lenses I'm looking at in the cropped version are the Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM for wide-angle and EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM for "normal" shooting. I have no doubts about these lenses on their own, it's just that if I ever upgrade the body to a full-frame, they're useless.

Those lenses are in my bag and my walk-around about half the time is the 17-55 2.8. You will LOVE that lens. If it were an EF, it would be an L lens. That lens on the 70D is unbelievable, as is the 70-200 2.8 IS. My other walk-around is the kit 18-135 (I had one with the 60D I sold also). The 10-22 cannot be beat for large group shots and landscapes. Just watch out for your toes. They can get into your shots at 10mm if you're not careful!

 

[Keyser]

Thanks everyone - you've been a HUGE help. I've just gone ahead and ordered the 70D, and thanks to you all, I don't have the buyer's remorse that I was starting to get before buying!

 

[WilsonFlyer]

Thanks everyone - you've been a HUGE help. I've just gone ahead and ordered the 70D, and thanks to you all, I don't have the buyer's remorse that I was starting to get before buying!

And you won't have it after you get it either. The 70D is a phenomenal camera; FF or crop. You will not be disappointed. Congratulations and welcome to Club Canon.

 

[photo_chick]

I didn't realize this board was on Disboards until today - I'm hoping you all can give me some advice... I'll save the long background, but will summarize that I'm looking to spend some money on a good DSLR camera. For various reasons, I can't really try these out before buying, and will need to buy soon, so I'm looking for some advice.

I've narrowed the purchase down to either the Canon 70D (this is a cropped frame) or the 6D (full frame). My original intention was to go with the 70D, but get high-end EF lenses so that eventually if we move to the full-frame, we can use them. The problem is that after looking at lenses a lot, I am convinced that if I get the 70D, I'm going to want to go with a couple of the EF-S lenses, which won't work on a full-frame camera.

The 70D and its lenses are about half the price of the 6D and the lenses I'd get for it (we're talking cost-of-a-vacation level money...), so I'd obviously rather save the significant chunk of money if possible. Although flash isn't the most important thing, the fact that the 70D has a built-in flash also should save money in the short term. I'm sure we'd get good use out of the 70D for a few years. However, I can also see wanting in about 5 years to move to a full-frame camera, in which case all the money spent on EF-S lenses is wasted. The alternative is to bite the bullet and pay now for the more expensive setup that I know will last us long-term.

If anyone has any insight/suggestions, I'd appreciate it...

I'm a long time Canon shooter, both crop and full frame, so I do have some experience in this area. I know I'm late to the party, but some things that might curb any lingering buyer's remorse or help someone else. The ONLY reason I'm shooting with a 6D is for the ISO performance. I loved my 50D and it did everything I needed except clean high ISO. I do a lot of low light and night shooting so that was a huge priority for me.

The first question I'll ask is why full frame? ISO, features, why? Having shot a lot with both crop and full frame there is nothing magical about full frame. Don't let the hype pull you in, it should come down to what you need out of a camera.

Second... with the exception the Canon 17-55 f/2.8 most of the EF-S lenses are not anywhere near L quality. So compare apples to apples when looking at lens costs. That 18-135 EF-S, compare to a 28-135 or even the out of production 28-105 f/3.5-4.5 and not to the L series 24-105 f/4 L. Likewise you cannot compare the 55-250 entry level zoom to a 70-200 L series. Compare like to like and you'll find that price difference in lenses gets a whole lot smaller. And remember all those L series lenses make crop bodies that much more awesome.

Third... All technology becomes outdated. Full frame cameras are not immune to this. There is no real long term with digital like there was with film. We don't buy a DSLR to keep for life. We're doing good if we keep it 5 years.

 

[SkaGoat]

I think we're still 12-24 months from a 70D feature equivalent 6DII. My plan is to start collecting EF glass in the interim so the blow isn't quite as big when it finally does happen (and it will).

You're going to be collecting glass for a long time, IMO the 6D's important feature set won't ever balloon. They may add bits and bobs, but it'll always be the stripped down FF camera it is. It'll always be slower, with a lower end AF system when compared to the 5D (so you have the reason to buy a 5D).

To keep the price point low, they'll always keeps it's features way beneath the 5D. Canon's line is this, and will be for a while.

Rebel T5/1200D ->Revel SL1/100D -> Rebel T5i/700D -> 70D -> 7D -> 6D -> 5D -> 1D

I would say 7D and 6D are in an equal spot in the line, just for different users, sports shooter, birders and wild life photogs go for 7D. People who need a more general use camera, do lots of landscapes, portraits or really good low light performance, but less rugged, and an AF system that isn't as capable (but is still good for what it is) go for the 6D.

Basically think of the 6D as a full frame 60D, and the 7D is a APS-C 1D mk IV. The 70D is a 7D with a new processor, a plastic body and a tiltly swively touchy screen added.

 

[KCmike]

This thread is a lot of fun. Good information everyone.

 

[WilsonFlyer]

You're going to be collecting glass for a long time, IMO the 6D's important feature set won't ever balloon. They may add bits and bobs, but it'll always be the stripped down FF camera it is. It'll always be slower, with a lower end AF system when compared to the 5D (so you have the reason to buy a 5D).

To keep the price point low, they'll always keeps it's features way beneath the 5D. Canon's line is this, and will be for a while.

Rebel T5/1200D ->Revel SL1/100D -> Rebel T5i/700D -> 70D -> 7D -> 6D -> 5D -> 1D

I would say 7D and 6D are in an equal spot in the line, just for different users, sports shooter, birders and wild life photogs go for 7D. People who need a more general use camera, do lots of landscapes, portraits or really good low light performance, but less rugged, and an AF system that isn't as capable (but is still good for what it is) go for the 6D.

Basically think of the 6D as a full frame 60D, and the 7D is a APS-C 1D mk IV. The 70D is a 7D with a new processor, a plastic body and a tiltly swively touchy screen added.

Same place. Same bat channel in 24 months.

 

[Luvscrappin]

I have to agree! I just read most of the thread to my DH...trying to convince him I NEED the 70D. So bummed I wont have it before this WDW trip! I am so wanting one I even considered renting, but that's probably not the ideal time to be learning about the new camera! Keep the info coming!

 

[photo_chick]

You're going to be collecting glass for a long time, IMO the 6D's important feature set won't ever balloon. They may add bits and bobs, but it'll always be the stripped down FF camera it is. It'll always be slower, with a lower end AF system when compared to the 5D (so you have the reason to buy a 5D).

To keep the price point low, they'll always keeps it's features way beneath the 5D. Canon's line is this, and will be for a while.

Rebel T5/1200D ->Revel SL1/100D -> Rebel T5i/700D -> 70D -> 7D -> 6D -> 5D -> 1D

I would say 7D and 6D are in an equal spot in the line, just for different users, sports shooter, birders and wild life photogs go for 7D. People who need a more general use camera, do lots of landscapes, portraits or really good low light performance, but less rugged, and an AF system that isn't as capable (but is still good for what it is) go for the 6D.

Basically think of the 6D as a full frame 60D, and the 7D is a APS-C 1D mk IV. The 70D is a 7D with a new processor, a plastic body and a tiltly swively touchy screen added.

You're making a lot of comparisons there but not the one that everyone seems to overlook. Compare the 6D to the 5DII, a camera many professionals still use, and you'll find it's equal or better spec'd in every area save one (sync speed). And the 6D does have the best ISO performance of any Canon on the market right now.

The 5DIII was a huge jump from the 5DII, both in features and price, and the 6D was released to fill that lower price point. Having used all of the cameras you mentioned I'll also strongly disagree that the 70D is basically a 7D with a new processor. It's not even close on some levels to the 7D. And the 6D and the 7D are two entirely different cameras that fill different needs... I could go on.

It just shows how highly subjective this all is. Buying a camera shouldn't be about is it full frame, crop or what anyone else thinks of it. It should be about what camera has the features and performance YOU need.

 

[havoc315]

You're making a lot of comparisons there but not the one that everyone seems to overlook. Compare the 6D to the 5DII, a camera many professionals still use, and you'll find it's equal or better spec'd in every area save one (sync speed). And the 6D does have the best ISO performance of any Canon on the market right now.

The 5DIII was a huge jump from the 5DII, both in features and price, and the 6D was released to fill that lower price point. Having used all of the cameras you mentioned I'll also strongly disagree that the 70D is basically a 7D with a new processor. It's not even close on some levels to the 7D. And the 6D and the 7D are two entirely different cameras that fill different needs... I could go on.

It just shows how highly subjective this all is. Buying a camera shouldn't be about is it full frame, crop or what anyone else thinks of it. It should be about what camera has the features and performance YOU need.

I'm not a Canon shooter, but as an outsider looking in, it appears that Canon really segments their dSLRs towards different niches, not a clear cut ranking from lowers to highest.

The 7d really feels like it is aimed at professional action shooters (as well as prosumers) who want to stick with APS-C. The 5DIII feels like a great general purpose all-around full frame, still geared more towards the pro market. While the 1D is the extreme professional camera mostly for sports shooters. The 6D felt like an attempt to bring full-frame to the masses by pricing it below $2,000, as well as a very good studio shooter.
While the Rebels are made for the mass market, and the 60d/70d are a bit of those who want a nice step up from the mass market.

A lot of the breakdown is sports shooters vs non-sports shooters, with the 1D and 7D catering to these shooters.

 

[photo_chick]

I'm not a Canon shooter, but as an outsider looking in, it appears that Canon really segments their dSLRs towards different niches, not a clear cut ranking from lowers to highest.

The 7d really feels like it is aimed at professional action shooters (as well as prosumers) who want to stick with APS-C. The 5DIII feels like a great general purpose all-around full frame, still geared more towards the pro market. While the 1D is the extreme professional camera mostly for sports shooters. The 6D felt like an attempt to bring full-frame to the masses by pricing it below $2,000, as well as a very good studio shooter.
While the Rebels are made for the mass market, and the 60d/70d are a bit of those who want a nice step up from the mass market.

A lot of the breakdown is sports shooters vs non-sports shooters, with the 1D and 7D catering to these shooters.

I totally agree that they seem to look more at niche markets and individual needs rather than putting out products that fall in a linear scale. The single digit designation tells you that they intended the 7D to be an APS-C "pro" camera. The fact that it out specs the 5DII, which was the most popular Canon "pro" camera at the time, speaks to that as well. But because there is this obsession with full frame a lot of pros dismissed the 7D. I think in the same way a lot of people dismiss the 6D. Yes, it is totally set up as the low end full frame in the Canon line and because of that people see it as stripped down and ill equipped. No, I wouldn't use a 6D to shoot wildlife or fast action sports. But at the same time it still has some areas where it excels even more than the 1Dx does. In the end which of the choices is right still all comes down to what you need.

Personally I can't wait to get my 6D on some dark rides this weekend! My last trip was with my 50D and while I got some great shots, I'm excited to shoot with a useable ISO 12800.