Can we talk cars?

[raidermatt]

I'm of the opinion that if you don't like something, don't buy it, don't visit it, etc.

Judging by park attendance and box office receipts, you are not alone in your thinking!

 

[pooh071567]

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Judging by park attendance and box office receipts, you are not alone in your thinking!
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Are we sure that the park attendance and box office receipts are reflecting people's disinterest in Disney and not the shape of our current economy??

 

[HB2K]

Are we sure that the park attendance and box office receipts are reflecting people's disinterest in Disney and not the shape of our current economy??

Yes.

If it was they economy, all box office results would be down. There's a certain movie that Disney initally funded, then gave away, that's making BILLIONS. So that disproves the whole "the economy hurt Treasure Planet" arguement. People are paying to see movies....just not Disney movies.

As for the theme parks, other parks continue to expand. Other parks continue to drum up business. Disney sits on it's hands. That's the reason the theme parks are suffering....Disney is giving you back things they took away and advertising them as new reasons to come back. I mean let's face it, people aren't going to go back to Orlando soley because Early Entry is back.

It's not the economy. It's the public's perception of the brand name. Disney isn't associated with quality or family anymore. They're associated with big business & cheap products.

 

[DisneyKidds]

It's not the economy. It's the public's perception of the brand name. Disney isn't associated with quality or family anymore. They're associated with big business & cheap products.

You can't make more of a car 4 statement than that .

I think there are a lot of things in play. Yes, Disney has not done as much as some other destinations to keep the parks prosperous in the economic climate of the past few years. They have not been making many additions and that is a bad thing. However, Disney is not the only destination with attendance declines. Disney should be doing more, but even if they had I think other things would still be a factor. No doubt that Disney could be in a better position had they made better decisions, but it still would be difficult.

As for Disney not being associated with family anymore - I disagree. Disney may not blow the other destinations away like they used to, but I wouldn't say they are no longer family friendly and they are all about big and cheap.

 

[raidermatt]

Are we sure that the park attendance and box office receipts are reflecting people's disinterest in Disney and not the shape of our current economy??

HB2K is right about the movies. TP did not fail to reach $40 million because of the economy.

Admittedly, theme parks are a little trickier to evaluate. Clearly the economy has some impact. But look at what happened at the Disneyland Resort last year, where a Disneyland with no new attractions increased its attendance, while DCA dropped. DCA actually dropped when the prior year wasn't even a complete year for the park, and 2002 saw the additions of Flik's Fun Fair and the Summer Music Series.

 

[HB2K]

What product has Disney released for the entire family? TP was geared towards tweeners & adults...the Disney store is basically for children now....none of the newer products appeal to the family as a unit.

 

[Jeff in BigD]

Originally posted by pooh071567
Are we sure that the park attendance and box office receipts are reflecting people's disinterest in Disney and not the shape of our current economy??

Take a look at the box office numbers for things like LOTR...it ain't the economy, especially since Disney films are usually a lock for at least one screening for families. Also I believe that Conde Nast reported that national travel was up in 2002 (but don't quote me on that). If you went to a local mall this past holiday season you'd see that plenty of people are spending cash.


I don't think it's all about doom & gloom. Indy wowed me, Fantasmic (DL) was awesome & I was impressed with (though I'll probably never ride it again ) ToT. The problem is these days anything that has potential gets a budget that would have made legends like Marc Davis believe that they left off a zero or two. Illuminations is the only thing I've seen lately that has really blown me away.

I think when you close a crowd favorite like Imagination & replace it with something that even ME hates, you're leaving yourself wide open. Test Track was billed as a marvel, but it opened, what 1-2 years after it was supposed to & after riding it I felt it was cool & all but I also felt like, "this is it?" The New (ok the new, new, new) Tomorrowland was supposed to bring people in & the answer was putting the Astrojets in front, practically on Mainstreet? They add music to Space Mountain (which I'm told made the ride even more fun), but don't bother to fix them when they went out, which (even though it's the same as before) to the rider it now seems broken. Rocket Rods were fun, but their life was shorter than David Duke's political career & when they were running they went down faster than Lewin...nevermind.

Then we see TDS & see that the ability is still there, but the drive isn't when it comes to the parks Stateside.



I think of it like this:
Suppose you have a steakhouse you've been going to for years (DL) & the food & amenities (attractions) are the best you've ever had & the waiters (CMs) give service that is second to none fulfilling any request with all promptness & courtesy.

There isn't one on every corner, but you don't mind driving out of your way & paying a little more for this excellent establishment. As time progresses the prices raise to adjust for inflation, which is the case with everything, so it's an acceptable practice. It's become a place that your family enjoys & loves going to.

Then you start to notice things that make you upset - the tables aren't as spotless as they once were. Some of the waiters are trying to put their best out there, but they're obviously burntout (from taking too many shifts to make up for a sudden lack of staff) or frustrated with mindless policies & guests are becoming ruder more frequently. Their hours of operation shorten, making the waits a lot longer than they'd been before - to their credit they have started taking reservations (fastpass), but it still means a longer wait. You also notice that the cuts of filet & prime rib are becoming increasingly fatty & some of them have been replaced with meatloaf & ground beef.

You also notice the minor details - the butter chips that were once sculpted are replaces with wrapped Land-o-Lakes butter pats. The napkins that were once folded into a beautiful swan or nice pattern are now simply rolled up with the silverware. The glasses that were so carefully polished now occasionally have water spots or lipstick stains on them. Extra butter for your baked potato is now a charge added to your bill & you've heard rumors that the soon the baked potato will be an aditionally charged item altogether. All this & the prices have jumped up a lot more than they reasonably would.

You ask to speak to a manager regarding your concerns & you get a well versed excuse as to the new policies & you almost feel as though the manager really doesn't care too much either. You shake your head looking at another table in earshot, expecting to get a sympathetic look, but instead get a dirty "shut up & eat your food" look. After this goes on for a while you become disheartened. Sure it's better than an Outback or Steak & Ale, but that gap has been severely shortened & you can't help but remember how great the place was a few years back. You finally realize that until you see a sign reading "under new management" things are not going to change for the better.


That is why I'm in Car 3.

 

[pooh071567]

Well you all are just too smart for me! I'm outa here!

 

[HB2K]

I'll give you the movies. I'm not as big on my movie numbers and honestly forgot most of those (even though I own most of them).

As for the parks issue...Six Flags is installing products which rival Disney's latest offerings (i.e. just about all of DCA & DinoRama) or trumps them. Look at Screamscape.com for updates to their parks nation wide.

Cedar Farms just announced they are building the tallest roller coster in the world.

Now you may not be a coaster rider. If you're not a coaster rider, you're not their niche, so it may not mean much to you. I look at it like this. Cedar Farms reputation is that they are one of the premier parks for Roller Coasters. They could have easily cashed in on that brand name reputation and put in a second rate coaster and still had people come to their parks.

But they didn't. They made a bold and calculated move by investing money in a ride which differenciates them from ANY other roller coaster park. They will build the tallest, fastest coster in the world. They will re-inforce their brand name recognition to their customers as the premier roller coaster theme park in the nation.

That is what's wrong with Disney. They chose the other route, starting with Animal Kingdom. They had a reputation as being the PREMIERE theme park & vacation company. Then they decided to build a new theme park.

Contrary to what Cedar did, Disney decided to cash in their brand name image and build an inferior product. And they succeeded. The early returns from DAK were mostly positive if memory serves correctly. Disney built it, and people came.

Then the trouble starts. Disney leaves the park stagnant. Guests who visited DAK the first time based on the fact that it was a Disney park wanted more. They gave Disney a mulligan when they visited the first time...but they wanted results the next time they visited....and Disney didn't provide those results. So attendance dropped.

So in an effort to further cash in on what was left of the brand name recognition, the company adds a second rate addittion to their inferior theme park, further burying their brand name recognition as the premier theme park company.

And now they build yet another inferior theme park (DCA), once again hoping to cash in their percieved value of the brand name.

What happened? They found out that you can only fool the public for so long. They found out how much damage they did to the brand name recognition.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Outback

Totally unrelated (but not really, I guess......................)

Outback spends a higher % of revenue on the food product than any other restaurant. The quality at Outback is very high, yet the prices are relatively low. I believe the Baron would call the Outback the "1972 WDW of steakhouses". Great quality, low price (lower than all the other guys) and unequalled VALUE, VALUE, VALUE. Yes, Outback is more expensive than some, but less than any other of comparable set up and quality - if you can find it. That VALUE concept is a formula that many believe worked for Disney in the 50's and 70's, and is working today in some industries.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Originally posted by pooh071567
Well you all are just too smart for me! I'm outa here!

Hey, it is a very good question, and one we haven't kicked around (or beat to death ) in more than a few months.

 

[sorcerermikey]

Having watched baron drive car 3 by for months I've finally hitched a ride. But considering the tone of this thread I'd like to point out that car 3ers still go and still enjoy the heck out of it when there. That's been stated many, many times. Despite solid car 3 beliefs and feelings, it's not a "doom and gloom" board. Just a realistic, apprehensive one. I'm going this saturday and today I feel like a kid before christmas (felt the same way on my last trip 12/20-22 but the analogy would have sounded really stupid at that time).

 

[HB2K]

Scoop,

You missed my point. Cedar farms has a different customer base than Disney. They are both in the theme park business, but they go after different market segments.

The point is not whether the ride could fit in Disney's park. The point is the commitment that Cedar makes to it's customers. They are re-investing money in their park, and they do it BIG. They don't need to build the largest roller coaster in the world to expand. They could have built Dino Rama style rides. And their guests would come. But would they come back again? Would they still think of Cedar as one of the premier Roller Coaster parks in the nation?

 

[Bob O]

The dscoop, the movies you mentioned are good for kids, but the entire family, NO!!!
Alot of other parks are expanding their offerings and investing in their parks. Alot of parks are putting in rides, movies etc. Universal is adding several attractions to both parks,Six Flags is adding rides/shows inseveral parks as is Cedar Point. And while the rides wouldnt be found in a disney park they are still major investments of time and money to improve their guests experience which disney hasnt been doing much of as late. PW which was added at AK is alot cheaper im sure than the new ride CP is building and rides/attractions that are being put in other parks. For Ceadr Point to invest 25 million dollars on a sinlge ride for a park only open part of the year is as big a investment as disney has made in their park with their own money in several years.
I would agree with Hb2k posts on this subject!!!!!
What disney should be doing is trying to make a attraction that outdoes the best of their competitor's and that would be making a interactive ride better than MIB and Spiderman which are considered the best ride's of their type in the world. But instead we get spinning type rides and a coaster that can be found IN ANY theme park and alot of carnivals, and that is supposed to get people to come back???

 

[Cricket2]

Originally posted by HB2K
Cedar farms has a different customer base than Disney. They are both in the theme park business, but they go after different market segments.

Cedar Point is an amusement park.

Disney is a theme park.

There is a fundamental difference between a coherent theme park and a parking lot filled with rides aimed at taking your money and driving you into a puking stupor.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Some good points about Cedar Point, Six Flags, etc. However, much of what you talk about has yet to be built. If we are going to count that, doesn't M:S count for anything?

 

[raidermatt]

BobO, gotta disagree with you on SC2, The Princess Diaries, L&S and The Rookie. Those are most definitely family movies. Haven't seen SpyKids and Snow Dogs, but they did strike me as more "kiddie" fair than family fair, but that's just based on the trailers.

There is a fundamental difference between a coherent theme park and a parking lot filled with rides aimed at taking your money and driving you into a puking stupor.

I don't think anybody disagrees.

HB2K's point is that these other parks are making more of an effort to provide new offerings that their customers want.

Disney would have us believe that is because the Disney guest base does not demand as much in the way of new offerings. There maybe some truth to that, but I think Disney has gone too far.

However, much of what you talk about has yet to be built. If we are going to count that, doesn't M:S count for anything?

I'd say that's a big yes. But WDW is a 4-park complex charging "4-park dollars" and asking for "4-park time", and then some. Their ratio of significant new offerings to number of parks seems to be far lower than other parks. I'm not saying it has to be equal, but I do believe its too far behind. Especially given the smaller opening scale of MGM and AK.

 

[HB2K]

Cedar Point is an amusement park.

Disney is a theme park.

But Business is business. Each company has it's customers (or market). Cedar is choosing the "old Disney" way of keeping theirs, by building more than they have to, by exceeding customer expectations, by not doing enough to get by.

They didn't need to build the tallest, fastest coaster in the world to please their customers. They could have built a lesser ride and still pleased their clientle...but they didn't. They made a bold statement. They said "let's build the tallest, fastest roller coaster in the WORLD."

When was the last time Disney dared to reach for the stars and do something with their theme parks which was a statement...which made them stand out from the rest of the world?

The last thing I can think of was Tower.

(NOTE: I've never been to Cedar. I'm using them as an example)

There is a fundamental difference between a coherent theme park and a parking lot filled with rides aimed at taking your money and driving you into a puking stupor.

I know, that's why I'm applauding Cedar. They're not building little carnivals and annoucing them as full scale expansions.

(NOTE: I know I just twisted that comment on you. But isn't it sad that Disney's newest offerings even lend themselves to the twist?)

 

[Jeff in BigD]

Originally posted by DisneyKidds
Totally unrelated (but not really, I guess......................)

Outback spends a higher % of revenue on the food product than any other restaurant. The quality at Outback is very high, yet the prices are relatively low. I believe the Baron would call the Outback the "1972 WDW of steakhouses". Great quality, low price (lower than all the other guys) and unequalled VALUE, VALUE, VALUE. Yes, Outback is more expensive than some, but less than any other of comparable set up and quality - if you can find it. That VALUE concept is a formula that many believe worked for Disney in the 50's and 70's, and is working today in some industries.

Ok, since we're elaborating on my analogy...

Outback is great for what it is, a moderately priced resturant with pretty good food. You can get a couple steaks & a bottle of wine for about $60. The service, while usually a little better than you'd get at Chili's or Bennigan's, it's not something that you'd think of as a selling point & it's doubtful that they'd be knowledgable about the company's past or it's future.

The wine list is adequate, though a little on the short side for a steakhouse. You wouldn't expect the waiter to be able to make suggestions on pairing wine with the meal or be able to make a great wine presentation. It's not a place people usually make plans for 24 hours in advance. The ambiance isn't much different than what you get at a Fridays & it's still from the mindset to try to get customers out in a pretty timely fashion. If you tell people you went to Outback there's no "ooh" factor there.

Then consider that for another $20-30 you can go to an establishment with impecable service, nice ambiance & feeling as though you're being pampered. You'll need to make arrangements to go there, but when you're there you don't feel rushed, almost like it's a spa for your stomach. My guess is when you're still paying that price, but the restaurant starts to remind you more & more of an Outback, you'll start to wonder why you don't just pay less & go to the Outback on your block instead.

 

[HB2K]

HB2K's point is that these other parks are making more of an effort to provide new offerings that their customers want.

I'm glad someone got my point

Some good points about Cedar Point, Six Flags, etc. However, much of what you talk about has yet to be built. If we are going to count that, doesn't M:S count for anything?

Matt already answered this for me, but let me say this. Yes M:S counts for something, but it's not enough. Disney has neglected EPCOT for years. Test Track & M:S are good adds, but the minuses that exist throughout the complex outnumber the positives today.