Calling all Creationists!

[Mikelly1221]

Sure - both, I think. I'm comfortable with both scripture and science and could see how a big bang = there was light (night & day come later - in my mind that's the planets and stars and stuff getting organized just as our creator (God) wanted them). I believe that a biblical "day" isn't a day, but a period of time instead. I also believe that everything was created according to a plan and the strongest and fittest species survive and continue to evolve. I also do believe that everything - including humans were created by God. If that doesn't confuse you then I don't know what will!

No, actually I get it! I'm not sure I agree with you-because I'm on the literal 7 days side, but I really don't have enough knowledge to argue it effectively. My problem is that if someone starts picking away at the inerrancy of the Bible, it's a slippery slope, and before they know it, they've picked it apart so that it has no value.

To me, the Big Bang theory has meant that life/Earth had a definite starting point, which it would if God created it out of nothing. I do agree with you that everything was made by God, people included.

Good conversation!

 

[TheGoofster]

You missed out part of #2: "...and are still trying to find the answers to all those questions".

The computer is an inanimate object. It isn't and never was, nor will it ever be, alive. It doesn't have the power to change it's form, it contains no life. At best, this is a really bad analogy.



"...and here's the evidence".



You know there are plants which don't need the sun to survive, right?

If people are still working on it then guess what - it's not a fact. So many people try to say that evolution is a fact, but as you just said - they're working on it.

You might want to review your evolution theory. Where do you think evolutionists say that the first life came from? From an inanimate object. The primordial sludge if you will. So yes, I agree that it is a ridiculous thing to say, but I'm afraid that is exactly what evolution says. From non-life came life. So I think the computer illustration is even less ridiculous than the actual theory of evolution.

Sure there are some plants that don't need the sun, but most plants and trees do, In fact the verse says:
"And God said let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind...And the evening and the morning were the third day"
As far as I know, all these kinds of plants do actually need the sun to survive.

 

[PlainJane]

I am definitely NOT a creationist.

I guess it is easier to believe in creationism than evolution, because if you believe everything the bible says, you would of course believe in creationism.

But with all that aside, I do not get how people can believe in it and not believe in evolution. My FIL doesnt believe dinosaurs ever exhisted. It blows my mind.

Believing in creationism, doesn't mean you think dinosaurs are a hoax or something. That is your FIL's belief.

Oh yeah, and one more thing. For those that say that God created everything, but it wasn't in actual days (one day = a thousand years). Genesis tells us that on day 3 God created the plants, and on day 4 God created the Sun. A plant can live one day without the sun, but it's not going to live a thousand years. They were literal days (24 hours), and besides the context of one day = a thousand years has nothing to do with creation.

That was a really good point; I had never considered that.

 

[DawnM]

Even die hard evolutionists don't believe we came from monkeys.

I also think there is so evidence to show that man and dinosaurs may have walked the earth at the same time (some overlap). I don't think anyone has said for sure, but there has been some evidence to point to that.

Dawn

I'm a logical Christian. I believe in evolution. I do believe that God created everything. I just believe that Adam and Eve were definitely Monkeys who came after the dinosaurs didn't work out so well....

 

[CPT Tripss]

There's a reason the Genesis 1:1 is at the beginning of the bible.

Good stories need a good opening. "It was a dark and stormy night..."

 

[Laura]

You keep saying that but you don't provide any of these facts. If evolution were based on facts it wouldn't be called a theory. Even the most die-hard evolutionists still call it a theory because that it what it is.
We have lots of facts. Fact - the Earth is here. Fact - we have scientific laws. Fact - the sun rises every day. And so on. What Evolution and Creation do is try to explain these facts the best way they can. Some believe that the best way to explain these facts is with evolution, others believe the best way to explain these facts is with creation.
Neither evolution nor creation is provable, so we do our best to interpret what we know with theories. But neither theory is a fact, they both require belief (and again belief is what faith is all about).
So if someone wants to believe that that computer evolved from a rock, that's their choice. I'll stick to my belief that it was designed by a designer.

This has been covered earlier in the thread, if you'll look back a bit. A scientific theory is most certainly based on facts, it's a testable model. It's not an idea just pulled out of the air, as theory in common usage is defined. Evolution is a phenomenon that has been observed by scientists, and the theory merely explains how it works. You can't "prove" a scientific theory, but as we continue to gather information, the theory of evolution has changed over time to include things like genetics. Here's a link I posted earlier: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/faq/index.html

One couldn't prove or disprove the existence of god with any scientific measure, because things that deal with any deity have to do with the supernatural. Science deals with the natural world. So honestly, the two are very much separate, and yet theology and science can quite easily coexist.

 

[Laura]

Another link that explains how evolution is a fact: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html

 

[TheGoofster]

This has been covered earlier in the thread, if you'll look back a bit. A scientific theory is most certainly based on facts, it's a testable model. It's not an idea just pulled out of the air, as theory in common usage is defined. Evolution is a phenomenon that has been observed by scientists, and the theory merely explains how it works. You can't "prove" a scientific theory, but as we continue to gather information, the theory of evolution has changed over time to include things like genetics. Here's a link I posted earlier: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/faq/index.html

One couldn't prove or disprove the existence of god with any scientific measure, because things that deal with any deity have to do with the supernatural. Science deals with the natural world. So honestly, the two are very much separate, and yet theology and science can quite easily coexist.

Actually here's the problem - Evolution is not a testable model. You can't test dust appearing, you can't test life coming from non-life. You can't test one species evolving into another. None of the major tenants of evolution can be tested. Evolution is un-testable. You also can't observe evolution (thus the need for adding a billion years or two every so often to the theory). Evolution says that over a time of millions of years one species evolved or mutated into another. We can't observe that so we must believe it. And don't try to say that we can see dogs evolving into other types of dogs. That's not evolution that a change in the same species.
I'll be the first to admit that to believe in God requires faith, but I'll also be the first to say that to believe in evolution requires even more faith.

 

[kt_mom]

I believe in the literal 7 day creation that is written about in Genesis. I believe that God tells you in the Bible when He is using a story or example to get a point across. Other than that I think we are to take it literally. Otherwise who's to say what's real and what's a story. Like someone else said, its a slippery slope and in the end you could have most of the Bible in question. Or at least any part that you've decided you don't agree with or don't want to obey.

Now I understand that many of you don't believe any of the Bible so of course you don't care how Christians pick it apart. But to me, I believe the Bible is THE Word of the all powerful God that I put my faith in. I believe that He speaks to authenticity of it and to start ignoring parts of it or discrediting parts of it is calling Him a liar. And I refuse to blame anything on it passed down for so many years. Again, my God is all powerful and therefore He will get the Bible to us in the from that He wants it to be and it will say what He wants it to say. If mankind was able to distort the Bible and God was not able to correct then He wouldn't be much of a God now would He?

I also believe that my God is powerful enough to create the world with whatever amount of age he wanted to. So although I believe that the earth was created between 6,000 and 10,000 years ago, I also believe that it may appear to scientist to be much older.

I Love the analogy about the computer in the desert. I'll have to use that sometime. It does seem to me that it takes more faith to believe in Evolution than it does to believe my God created it all perfectly according to His plan.

 

[Laura]

Actually here's the problem - Evolution is not a testable model. You can't test dust appearing, you can't test life coming from non-life. You can't test one species evolving into another. None of the major tenants of evolution can be tested. Evolution is un-testable. You also can't observe evolution (thus the need for adding a billion years or two every so often to the theory). Evolution says that over a time of millions of years one species evolved or mutated into another. We can't observe that so we must believe it. And don't try to say that we can see dogs evolving into other types of dogs. That's not evolution that a change in the same species.
I'll be the first to admit that to believe in God requires faith, but I'll also be the first to say that to believe in evolution requires even more faith.

Not a testable model? That would be incorrect: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/misconceptions_faq.php#b6

Evolution is observable and testable. The misconception here is that science is limited to controlled experiments that are conducted in laboratories by people in white lab coats. Actually, much of science is accomplished by gathering evidence from the real world and inferring how things work. Astronomers cannot hold stars in their hands and geologists cannot go back in time, but in both cases scientists can learn a great deal by using multiple lines of evidence to make valid and useful inferences about their objects of study. The same is true of the study of the evolutionary history of life on Earth, and as a matter of fact, many mechanisms of evolution are studied through direct experimentation as in more familiar sciences.

From the same website, lines of evidence for evolution: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/lines_01

Evolution is not a belief system, by the way.

 

[xoprincessmomxo]

Even die hard evolutionists don't believe we came from monkeys.

I also think there is so evidence to show that man and dinosaurs may have walked the earth at the same time (some overlap). I don't think anyone has said for sure, but there has been some evidence to point to that.

Dawn

lol...My response was meant to be kinda silly...didn't translate well in writing though! I honestly believe in the evolution of species, but it's not something I have enough knowledge about to argue...My thoughts on it: Believe what you want! You can't fight fact with faith and vice versa.

 

[TheGoofster]

Not a testable model? That would be incorrect: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/misconceptions_faq.php#b6



From the same website, lines of evidence for evolution: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/lines_01

Evolution is not a belief system, by the way.

Yeah, that's a nice set of opinions, but that's all that they are. No facts, just interpretations of the facts in a way that suits their belief. By the way, I notice that they don't even try to touch the most basic questions - Where did the dust come from. Where did the energy come from. Where did the heat come from. How did life come from inorganic matter. If evolution is a fact, why can't they even answer (or try to answer) these most basic questions?
There are NO facts for evolution. If there were it would not be called a theory any more. Not even your most die-hard evolutionists can call it anything else but a theory, because that's all that it is - an unprovable, unobservable, untestable theory.

And yes, evolution is a belief system. You have to believe really, really hard that what evolution proposes actually happened, because you can't prove it any other way.

Tell me how dust appeared from nothing? Tell me where the scientific laws came from? Tell me how life came from inorganic matter? You can't. But you believe that it happened. Evolution requires more faith than creation. I believe in one thing - That God did what He said He did. That explains every aspect of our world. Where did life come from? God Where did the laws come from? God.
Evolution require belief in a lot of different things that had to happen independently of each other. Belief that dust suddenly appeared from no where. If that isn't faith I don't know what is. Belief that energy appeared form no where. Belief that heat appeared from no where. Belief that organic life came from inorganic matter. That takes a ton of faith.

 

[Laura]

Yeah, that's a nice set of opinions, but that's all that they are. No facts, just interpretations of the facts in a way that suits their belief. By the way, I notice that they don't even try to touch the most basic questions - Where did the dust come from. Where did the energy come from. Where did the heat come from. How did life come from inorganic matter. If evolution is a fact, why can't they even answer (or try to answer) these most basic questions?
There are NO facts for evolution. If there were it would not be called a theory any more. Not even your most die-hard evolutionists can call it anything else but a theory, because that's all that it is - an unprovable, unobservable, untestable theory.

And yes, evolution is a belief system. You have to believe really, really hard that what evolution proposes actually happened, because you can't prove it any other way.

Tell me how dust appeared from nothing? Tell me where the scientific laws came from? Tell me how life came from inorganic matter? You can't. But you believe that it happened. Evolution requires more faith than creation. I believe in one thing - That God did what He said He did. That explains every aspect of our world. Where did life come from? God Where did the laws come from? God.
Evolution require belief in a lot of different things that had to happen independently of each other. Belief that dust suddenly appeared from no where. If that isn't faith I don't know what is. Belief that energy appeared form no where. Belief that heat appeared from no where. Belief that organic life came from inorganic matter. That takes a ton of faith.

There is evidence for evolution, you just apparently don't want to see it. I've linked to several sites with far more intelligent people than I am who are far more knowledgeable than I am. They have the answers to your questions. If you want to dismiss scientific evidence as mere opinions and insist on misunderstanding what a scientific theory entails, apparently I cannot help you. You wish to be wilfully ignorant, so it's best I leave you to it.

 

[TheGoofster]

There is evidence for evolution, you just apparently don't want to see it. I've linked to several sites with far more intelligent people than I am who are far more knowledgeable than I am. They have the answers to your questions. If you want to dismiss scientific evidence as mere opinions and insist on misunderstanding what a scientific theory entails, apparently I cannot help you. You wish to be wilfully ignorant, so it's best I leave you to it.

Actually I have read these, and many, many more besides these (most of which are even better presented than these). I have also taken the time to learn why I believe what I believe (not just taking someone else's word for it). I have spent literally hundreds of hours researching this subject. Believe me, the only thing that evolutionists have is opinion and interpretation of the facts in a way that they want.
I know you want to say that I'm willfully ignorant, but the truth be told most people believe what others tell them without studying it. I have studied this for many years. I could probably bore you silly with the proofs for and against evolution. We could spend hours discussing Carbon 14 dating, and fossils, and missing links, and what-not. But that's not my goal.
Like I mentioned before, I don't care what you believe. If you want to believe that we are traveling through space and time on the back of a giant turtle, more power to you. But what I do mind is that our kids are being force fed evolution as the one and only explanation of how we got here. It amazes me at how scared and worried evolutionists get when somebody dares suggest that perhaps both theories (evolution and creation - or if you wish intelligent design) be presented. If evolutionists are so sure about their theory why are they so worried? could it be that when the facts are presented, their theory will not stand the test?
My kids probably know more about the theory of evolution then most kids their age. I teach them both sides. I teach them what many scientists today believe, and I teach them what the Bible says. I'm not afraid of what evolution says, so why are so many evolutionists so afraid of what the Bible says?

 

[freckles and boo]

I consider it a fable. Imho, a lot of the stories in the Bible are stories that had been handed down from ancient civilizations and retold to support the beliefs of the first Christians.

I agree. The creation mythology of the Bible is beautiful, but it is a story to explain what was unexplainable at the time. Most cultures have these myths and what they have in common is that they attempt to satisfy human curiosity. I love the beauty of the stories but I no more believe God created the world in seven days than I believe the creation myths of the various American Indian nations or the ancient Greeks or the other early cultures.

 

[Master Mason]

Not a testable model? That would be incorrect: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/misconceptions_faq.php#b6



From the same website, lines of evidence for evolution: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/lines_01

Evolution is not a belief system, by the way.

From your definition, it allows scientists to infer

Main Entry: in·fer
Pronunciation: \in-ˈfər\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): in·ferred; in·fer·ring
Etymology: Middle French or Latin; Middle French inferer, from Latin inferre, literally, to carry or bring into, from in- + ferre to carry — more at bear
Date: 1528
transitive verb
1: to derive as a conclusion from facts or premises <we see smoke and infer fire — L. A. White> — compare imply
2: guess, surmise <your letter…allows me to infer that you are as well as ever — O. W. Holmes died 1935>
3 a: to involve as a normal outcome of thought b: to point out : indicate <this doth infer the zeal I had to see him — Shakespeare> <another survey…infers that two-thirds of all present computer installations are not paying for themselves — H. R. Chellman>
4: suggest, hint <are you inferring I'm incompetent?>
intransitive verb
: to draw inferences <men…have observed, inferred, and reasoned…to all kinds of results — John Dewey>
— in·fer·able also in·fer·ri·ble \in-ˈfər-ə-bəl\ adjective
— in·fer·rer \-ˈfər-ər\ noun

Notice, no where does that definition state prove, it states derive, guess, surmise.

 

[TheGoofster]

Fact - I have to go out and get some things done
Theory - I should be back later to keep discussing this.

 

[Laura]

Actually I have read these, and many, many more besides these (most of which are even better presented than these). I have also taken the time to learn why I believe what I believe (not just taking someone else's word for it). I have spent literally hundreds of hours researching this subject. Believe me, the only thing that evolutionists have is opinion and interpretation of the facts in a way that they want.
I know you want to say that I'm willfully ignorant, but the truth be told most people believe what others tell them without studying it. I have studied this for many years. I could probably bore you silly with the proofs for and against evolution. We could spend hours discussing Carbon 14 dating, and fossils, and missing links, and what-not. But that's not my goal.
Like I mentioned before, I don't care what you believe. If you want to believe that we are traveling through space and time on the back of a giant turtle, more power to you. But what I do mind is that our kids are being force fed evolution as the one and only explanation of how we got here. It amazes me at how scared and worried evolutionists get when somebody dares suggest that perhaps both theories (evolution and creation - or if you wish intelligent design) be presented. If evolutionists are so sure about their theory why are they so worried? could it be that when the facts are presented, their theory will not stand the test?
My kids probably know more about the theory of evolution then most kids their age. I teach them both sides. I teach them what many scientists today believe, and I teach them what the Bible says. I'm not afraid of what evolution says, so why are so many evolutionists so afraid of what the Bible says?

I find it hard to believe that you understand evolution so well when you quite clearly don't even understand what the definition of a scientific theory is. But you obviously have your beliefs, and I'm not asking you to change them. You've gone searching for things to support your foregone conclusion, and closing your mind to the facts before you, which is not at all scientific.

I'm not afraid of what the Bible says, I just don't see it as a reason to disregard all of the sciences. You might be surprised to find how many scientists are true believers, by the way. As I stated before, I went to Catholic school and was taught that Genesis isn't a literal story. Same story, same religion, but completely different interpretations.

 

[Laura]

From your definition, it allows scientists to infer



Notice, no where does that definition state prove, it states derive, guess, surmise.

That's nice for you. Have you found that evidence that we've evolved from apes?

It's so funny that people think scientific theories are just waiting to be proven. It's sad indication of how people didn't pay attention in science class.

 

[Mikelly1221]

Laura, I have read over the links you provided. Thank you for providing them. I read the facts that they listed. I didn't see any reasons for the facts, and I don't need really deep details (I probably couldn't understand them anyway! ). Just something along the lines of: It is a fact that....because in 19whatever we discovered.....(fill in the blanks). What I found were statements that I am not prepared to accept without some proof. Furthermore, I was told in those statements that I was an ignorant, bumbling fool if I didn't believe evolution just because some muckety-muck told me to. (Not in those exact words, of course, but I read between the lines.) Please point me to the studies, tests, archaelogical discoveries, etc.

I can tell you all day long the sky is purple plaid with red polka dots and green stripes, and call you names if you don't believe me, but that doesn't make it true. Again, I truly believe that the vast majority of people believe evolution is true because it has been yelled from the rooftops for so long. Today, if you question evolution, you're looked upon as something that crawled out of the proverbial primordial sludge.