Cafeteria Catholics?

[nuke]

Well - it's just that it is impossible. Holy Orders is a sacrament. For it to be a valid sacrament you need to be a baptized male (not a baptized female). That's it - plain and simple.

Another little lesson.
Paul did not start the Catholic Church. Paul actually was an early persecutor of the Church before he was converted by Jesus. Paul learned everything directly from Jesus. He helped to spread the Church by converting others.

Peter was chosen by Jesus to head the Church - he was given the keys to the Kingdom. That is why he is known as the first Pope. This is why whenever any questions were raised - Peter clarified the reasonings of the teachings - then they were followed accordingly. Even though another apostle might have been closer than Peter.

Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church.

Yeah- I didn't need your little lesson. I already corrected myself.

I disagree that Jesus Christ founded the church as we know it now. I certainly didn't read about Jesus having millions of dollars of artwork, gilded churches, and marble basilicas. He also didn't advocate murder as did many of the early Roman popes.

 

[hidmickey:myantidrug]

I don't have a problem per se, it is just that I feel that they are glanced over when people state that women are not allowed to answer God's calling. Around here nuns are extremely important. They founded school, hospitals...etc. At the grade school and high school I went to nuns were teachers, counslers, friends. My grade school has a small convent above the library.

See, that just shows the difference that location makes. I think that it is great that nuns are a seemly very active part of your Church and Catholic school. At our Church, if someone were to tell me that there weren't nuns, I wouldn't doubt it for a second.

 

[ptrbryant]

Yeah- I didn't need your little lesson. I already corrected myself.

I disagree that Jesus Christ founded the church as we know it now. I certainly didn't read about Jesus having millions of dollars of artwork, gilded churches, and marble basilicas. He also didn't advocate murder as did many of the early Roman popes.

Of course Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church. Until the Reformation, there were NO other Christian denominations. I'm not sure what your point is about the Church as we know it now.

As for the millions of dollars of artwork, gilded churches, marble basilicas...most of the value placed on them is because of their antiquity. The ancient and medieval guildhalls were made up of skilled craftsmen who lived during centuries when--guess what! Nothing was more important than their faith. People contributed everything they could to create lasting memorials to their faith, to give glory to God in a physical dimension. The architect's job was to design cathedrals that were to represent "frozen prayer". Just as the Ark of the Covenant was covered in gold and magnificent to behold, so were the monuments to Christianity. Unlike the present, people didn't put extra money into a 4-car garage or a new McMansion. It went to help create visible witnesses to the splendor of God that they hoped would last through the ages.

No men are without sin and throughout the history of the papacy, there have been both good and bad popes...fortunately, many more of the former than the latter. In spite of the individual sinfulness of some popes, they never dared change Church teaching or doctrine. Their evil manifested itself on purely personal levels.

Karla B.

 

[JoyG]

Of course Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church. Until the Reformation, there were NO other Christian denominations. I'm not sure what your point is about the Church as we know it now.
Karla B.

Just thought I'd throw out a little tidbit that I discovered researching my own faith, Baptist.

Baptists can actually trace our denomination back to faith groups that existed long before the Reformation...I want to say around the 400 or so A.D.

People holding traditional Baptist beliefs were usually labeled heretics and not recognized but I found it interesting that we were around back then.

 

[Aidensmom]

Just thought I'd throw out a little tidbit that I discovered researching my own faith, Baptist.

Baptists can actually trace our denomination back to faith groups that existed long before the Reformation...I want to say around the 400 or so A.D.

People holding traditional Baptist beliefs were usually labeled heretics and not recognized but I found it interesting that we were around back then.

Can you give some resources on that, that is interesting. I always thought it was not till the reformation that the protestant denominations were around (not that it really matters when they came about IMO, but I would love to learn more).

 

[nuke]

Of course Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church. Until the Reformation, there were NO other Christian denominations. I'm not sure what your point is about the Church as we know it now.

As for the millions of dollars of artwork, gilded churches, marble basilicas...most of the value placed on them is because of their antiquity. The ancient and medieval guildhalls were made up of skilled craftsmen who lived during centuries when--guess what! Nothing was more important than their faith. People contributed everything they could to create lasting memorials to their faith, to give glory to God in a physical dimension. The architect's job was to design cathedrals that were to represent "frozen prayer". Just as the Ark of the Covenant was covered in gold and magnificent to behold, so were the monuments to Christianity. Unlike the present, people didn't put extra money into a 4-car garage or a new McMansion. It went to help create visible witnesses to the splendor of God that they hoped would last through the ages.

No men are without sin and throughout the history of the papacy, there have been both good and bad popes...fortunately, many more of the former than the latter. In spite of the individual sinfulness of some popes, they never dared change Church teaching or doctrine. Their evil manifested itself on purely personal levels.

Karla B.

I know that the Catholic church was the first Christian church and that the others are branches of it. I think I can't reconsile in my mind that Jesus founded the Catholic Church as it is today. Can anyone find me a reading that says only women can be priests? or how about that you can't eat meat on Fridays? What about the rules that have changed like having to cover your head?

These things are man made rules. They do not come directly from Jesus and that is the point I'm trying to make. Obviously badly.

As far as the antiquities in Rome. If the church sold a 10th of them and used the money to help people I would feel much better. I know the church does a lot to help the less fortunate but they could do so much more.

Anyways I'm off to get ready for mass. If I don't get struck by lightening on the way I guess God is okay with my way of thinking.

 

[Buckalew11]

I know that the Catholic church was the first Christian church and that the others are branches of it. I think I can't reconsile in my mind that Jesus founded the Catholic Church as it is today. Can anyone find me a reading that says only women can be priests? or how about that you can't eat meat on Fridays? What about the rules that have changed like having to cover your head?

These things are man made rules. They do not come directly from Jesus and that is the point I'm trying to make. Obviously badly.

As far as the antiquities in Rome. If the church sold a 10th of them and used the money to help people I would feel much better. I know the church does a lot to help the less fortunate but they could do so much more.

Anyways I'm off to get ready for mass. If I don't get struck by lightening on the way I guess God is okay with my way of thinking.

I have problems with man made rules also.

I still thinkthe world is rich enough to take care of everyone.

I think if God had a problem with your thinking, Jesus would have built a fancy-shamcy building and had let the people come to Him.

 

[JoyG]

Can you give some resources on that, that is interesting. I always thought it was not till the reformation that the protestant denominations were around (not that it really matters when they came about IMO, but I would love to learn more).

I agree, in the long run the history of Baptists is not as important to us as for say Catholics...

But since you asked:

There is a theory that Baptists can be traced all the way back through a series of faith groups that shared close to the same beliefs we hold today. That theory is called Baptist Successionism and if you google it you will find names of all the faith groups in the line of succession.

That theory however, is not universally accepted and often debated.

What is less debated however is that Baptists have ties to a group called the Waldenses which got their start in 1170 (some say they were around as early as 800's) which is still long before the Protestant Reformation.

 

[LuluLovesDisney]

I'm a lapsed agnostic Catholic with Pantheistic leanings
I consider myself a Catholic by heritage and not necessarily by practice. I went to Catholic school all the way straight through college (except one year at UMASS). I'm going to a Dominican college now (which my MIL thought was Dominican like the country and not like the friars )

I go to Mass on occasion (when my priest needs a lector mostly). I am fascinated by the history of the Church. I am comforted by the ritual of the mass, and making candle offerings, but I lost my faith years ago during the beginnings of the Church scandal and because of the fact the Church has really lost touch with its members. I get more and more angry with Church leaders who turned a blind eye to the abuse and yet try to incorporate more tactics the more evangelical fundamentalist protestant sects use in hopes of enticing more people to the Church.

I love Mary and still enjoy reading my book about the lives of the saints. Maybe because I came from a less than devout family, except for my very religious Meme, but I honestly don't understand the need to 100% subscribe to the politics of the Church in order to be considered a "real Catholic". I find that more "Born Again Catholics" seem to spout that better Catholic than you attitude than those who were raised Catholic. I wonder if that's because BAC's tend to come from more evangelical backgrounds and cradle Catholics consider it more of a heritage. Either way it bothers me and the more and more I encounter that attitude, the more I question where I fit in spiritually.

Interesting. I still go for family weddings, baptisms, Christmas, Easter, etc. but with intention of being there for the life ritual, not as worship.

I wish I felt that I could still be considered a Catholic but there are things in Mass I cannot truthfully say. For one, I do not believe that God created Jesus to die for our sins. I believe in a loving God, not one who would need to create another person to sacrifice in order to forgive others. I also believe that we are responsible for our own actions and sins and that no matter how wonderful Jesus was, each of us is responsible for ourselves and that we should be good not depend on Jesus to forgive us.

I do love the ritual and heritage aspect of it, and it makes me sad when I go because I feel like this. However, I have to be honest. My beliefs are Unitarian Universalist and that is a religion that accepts that spirituality is a constant journey and we can get wisdom from all sources - not just one. I have read the Bible, the Gnostic gospels, the Tao Te Ching, the Koran and I am particularly interested (since I am Polish) in the Slavic Paganism practiced in Eastern Europe before Christianity. I like knowing about all religions and I believe in one thing my mom says (a very devout Catholic, with an extreme devotion to Mary) When we die, we will find out that bits and pieces of all religions were right, but that all religions/churches did things or said things that were wrong.

I think that there are many aspects of Catholicism that are good, but at least in the church in my area, the homilies are too fire and brimstone and demanding, not asking for money and not enough on values, good works, and loving humanity. It's sad, because I know that other Catholics have a completely different world view - lanother Catholic church down the shore (NJ) is not like this at all - and like my former principal Sister Elvine - if saints really exist, when she dies she will most assuredly become one. She was amazingly kind and wonderful and eventually went to Africa as a missionary.

It's sad that people argue over the things they disagree with, forgetting all those things they do agree on. If everyone just believed in being a good, kind person and harming no one, including themselves, we could disagree on what books are sacred, and what interpretations are correct, and still celebrate life and humanity each day with happiness instead of war, arguing and disharmony.

I will continue to go to Mass for my family and continue to go to my UU church for myself. I will follow my moral compass and do what I believe to be the best and openly state that I don't know what is right (correct) to believe I only know what is right (good) to do. I can't believe in any angry God who would punish me for that.

If you're going to Catholic Mass because you get a great spiritual feeling out of it and your priests are helping you with that, I congratulate you. It's wonderful to have the strength hold your own ethics as well.

 

[LisaB]

I was taught in a reformation class taught by a Lutheran professor that Baptists in America were started in America and anabaptists were actually
like the amish or mennonites. In the 9th century the orthodox church broke off offically from the Roman Catholic Church I believe

 

[LuluLovesDisney]

Well - it's just that it is impossible. Holy Orders is a sacrament. For it to be a valid sacrament you need to be a baptized male (not a baptized female). That's it - plain and simple.

Another little lesson.
Paul did not start the Catholic Church. Paul actually was an early persecutor of the Church before he was converted by Jesus. Paul learned everything directly from Jesus. He helped to spread the Church by converting others.

Peter was chosen by Jesus to head the Church - he was given the keys to the Kingdom. That is why he is known as the first Pope. This is why whenever any questions were raised - Peter clarified the reasonings of the teachings - then they were followed accordingly. Even though another apostle might have been closer than Peter.

Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church.

Neither Jesus nor Peter claimed that women could not be priests. Simply because the disciples were male (as per ancient customs, women could not teach men. Period. ) that does not mean that it is immoral for women to be priests now. Women teach men all the time now, including women of all faiths, so this is most certainly a custom and not doctrine.

 

[mickeyfan2]

There is a theory that Baptists can be traced all the way back through a series of faith groups that shared close to the same beliefs we hold today. That theory is called Baptist Successionism and if you google it you will find names of all the faith groups in the line of succession.

My google search did not prove this at all. It is more of a belief, which is fine by me.

(wikipedia)

Baptist successionism is one of several theories on the origin and continuation of the Baptist Church (or Baptist churches) - also known as "Baptist Church perpetuity".


Definition and history

Baptist successionism is the theory that there exists an unbroken chain of churches that have held the beliefs (though not always the name) of the current Baptist churches since the time of Christ. This theory, once commonly held among Baptists, is now mostly identified with Landmark Baptists, though not exclusively. Some Southern Baptists, Primitive Baptists, Regular Baptists and United Baptists hold a similar view.

Pointing to the promise of Jesus Christ to watch over His churches as they evangelized, baptized and indoctrinated throughout the world till His second coming, the theory is built more on a theological and scriptural foundation rather than an historical one. Much of the historical documentation needed to support this theory has been lost or never existed. It is also impossible to disprove because it only requires the existence of at least one single church (could be as small as two or three people - according to Christ's promise to be with His church where even two or three were gathered together) during any particular point in history to be true.

Many of the ancient churches that held baptistic beliefs suffered great persecution by governments, instigated by Catholics and Protestants alike. This raises the possibility that the writings of such groups may have been destroyed. Furthermore, the records of them written by the persecuting groups were colored with bias. For example, it is charged by the old Catholic writers that the pre-Reformation anti-paedobaptists were dualistic in their theology. But one notes the same accusation was made against Martin Luther when he initiated his attempt to reform the Catholic church; the charge of dualism was a standard charge used to defame anyone who challenged the Catholic hierarchy.

Ancient anti-paedobaptist groups, such as Mennonites, Waldenses, Albigenses, Cathari, and Paulicians, are often considered to be within this chain of tradition. However, some of those mentioned groups that has continuate existence up today, such as the Mennonites, Waldenses, and Paulicians, deny any link with the modern Baptist churches.

John T. Christian's History of the Baptists is the most scholarly general Baptist history written from a successionist perspective. Christian also wrote two other books (Did They Dip? and Baptist History Vindicated) which deal with the narrower question of baptism for immersion among the 16th and 17th century Anabaptists. J. M. Carroll's Trail of Blood is a widely distributed popular pamphlet promoting Baptist successionism.

A pre-Landmark work defending the concept of successionism is A Vindication of the Continued Succession of the Primitive Church of Jesus Christ (Now Scandalously termed Anabaptist) from the Apostles unto this present time published in England in 1652.

 

[ptrbryant]

For one, I do not believe that God created Jesus to die for our sins. I believe in a loving God, not one who would need to create another person to sacrifice in order to forgive others.

I honestly do not mean disrespect by this, but isn't the theology that God created Jesus to die for our sins the basis of Christianity, not just the Catholic denomination?

Karla B.

 

[Marie17]

Neither Jesus nor Peter claimed that women could not be priests. Simply because the disciples were male (as per ancient customs, women could not teach men. Period. ) that does not mean that it is immoral for women to be priests now. Women teach men all the time now, including women of all faiths, so this is most certainly a custom and not doctrine.

Didn't say that women could not be priests because it would be immoral. Just said the issue of women priests is moot.

Jesus was very counter cultural during His time on earth. He could have chosen women to be his apostles - he didn't. He followed tradition of Israel of reserving the priesthood to men. His apostles also took Jesus' lead and only ordained men into the priesthood. They understood His teachings. Several women could have been made into priests if Jesus or the apostles desired, but Jesus chose men.

Priests are representatives of Christ at the mass. Christ was male. Females are not males.

Females and males are equal in God's eye. And for those that say that God only revers men - He elevated the Blessed Virgin Mary to be the Queen of the Universe. She is considered the Queen of Apostles and the Queen of Angels - even though she was not either.

 

[LuluLovesDisney]

Didn't say that women could not be priests because it would be immoral. Just said the issue of women priests is moot.

Jesus was very counter cultural during His time on earth. He could have chosen women to be his apostles - he didn't. He followed tradition of Israel of reserving the priesthood to men. His apostles also took Jesus' lead and only ordained men into the priesthood. They understood His teachings. Several women could have been made into priests if Jesus or the apostles desired, but Jesus chose men.

Priests are representatives of Christ at the mass. Christ was male. Females are not males.

Females and males are equal in God's eye. And for those that say that God only revers men - He elevated the Blessed Virgin Mary to be the Queen of the Universe. She is considered the Queen of Apostles and the Queen of Angels -
even though she was not either.

I still don't get the leap from priest being representatives of Christ, to only males can be priests. Why can't a female represent if they are equal in God's eyes?

 

[LuluLovesDisney]

I honestly do not mean disrespect by this, but isn't the theology that God created Jesus to die for our sins the basis of Christianity, not just the Catholic denomination?

Karla B.

Absolutely. No disrespect taken.

That's the reason why I am Unitarian Universalist. Although I believe many, many other Christian teachings I cannot accept that God would need to create anyone to be punished for the sins of someone else. Although many Christians agree with me, I don't feel comfortable calling myself Christian because of that.

 

[Marie17]

Googled also. Found several websites regarding church age. Here's one from ewtn.org

How Old Is Your Church?

If you are a Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex- monk of the Catholic Church, in the year 1517.

If you belong to the Church of England, your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the Pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.

If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded by John Knox in Scotland in the year 1560.

If you are a Protestant Episcopalian, your religion was an offshoot of the Church of England founded by Samuel Seabury in the American colonies in the 17th century.

If you are a Congregationalist, your religion was originated by Robert Brown in Holland in 1582.

If you are a Methodist, your religion was launched by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.

If you are a Unitarian, Theophilus Lindley founded your church in London in 1774.

If you are a Mormon (Latter Day Saints), Joseph Smith started your religion in Palmyra, N.Y., in 1829.

If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1605.

If you are of the Dutch Reformed church, you recognize Michaelis Jones as founder, because he originated your religion in New York in 1628.

If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.

If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year in which your religion was born and to Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy as its founder.

If you belong to one of the religious organizations known as 'Church of the Nazarene," "Pentecostal Gospel." "Holiness Church," "Pilgrim Holiness Church," "Jehovah's Witnesses," your religion is one of the hundreds of new sects founded by men within the past century.

If you are Catholic, you know that your religion was founded in the year 33 by Jesus Christ the Son of God, and it is still the same Church.

 

[Fitswimmer]

I still don't get the leap from priest being representatives of Christ, to only males can be priests.

The way I was taught was that the priest is acting "in the Person of Jesus Christ" when he says Mass and hears confession. In order to act "in the person" of Jesus, since Jesus was male, that means the Priest has to be male.

As far as the basilicas and all the artistic treasures, I used to believe as many do that the Church would have more credibility if they sold those things to further help the poor. However, I've come to feel differently over time. The architecture and the art are important to people, they help lift people's thoughts to a higher place. The people that created those buildings, paintings and statutes did it to glorify God and to lead others to do the same.

 

[Marie17]

Ditto what Fitswimmer said.

Another reason the artwork, churches, stained glass should never be sold - doesn't mean it couldn't but I personally don't think it should be - is these were gifts from the parishioners at that time. Not everyone was wealthy but many were very talented and gave their time of their talent.

The artwork, stained glasses, colors, architecture mainly told the story of Jesus, beliefs and traditions of the Catholic Church. LOTS of people could not read - very few could - but this was a way that everyone could understand visually from the very young to the very old. If you take a small child into an old Catholic cathedral - that child will definitely notice the artwork and stained glass. They begin to ask questions - what does that window mean. Ask the child - what do they see or what do they think that window means? It is amazing how much detail they will get out of it. When you start to look you will also see a bigger picture. If you ever take a guided tour of an old cathedral, the guide would give you hints on how to "read" the story of Jesus through the stained glass windows.

 

[ford family]

Of course Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church. Until the Reformation, there were NO other Christian denominations.

Karla B.

Not so. There were many competing Christian sects in the early church, not least the Othodox churches.

Came across this quotation which seems to be very accurate.

"Christianity started out in Palestine as a fellowship; it moved to Greece and became a philosophy; it moved to Italy and became an institution; it moved to Europe and became a culture; it came to America and became an enterprise." Sam Pascoe, American scholar.

ford family