Cafeteria Catholics?

[ElizaB39]

Not so fast. The Republican party supports the death penalty which is against the pro-life position of the Church. I was taught that the pro-life position covers abortion, euthanasia, and the death penalty, so it's really tough to vote! I can't vote Democratic because they support abortion and euthanasia and I can't vote Republican because they support the death penalty. Not to mention the issue of whether or not the Iraq war qualifies as a "just war" according to Catholic teaching. I've read arguments on both sides of that issue. I believe Pope John Paul II said it was not, and I'm not sure if Pope Benedict has addressed it at all.

All valid points Fitz, but our priest came right out and said, "vote for the candidate that is pro-life" and in that race, it meant the republican candidate. It had been all over the news, especially since the diocese had supported priests that said they wouldn't give communion to the catholic candidates that said they were pro-abortion. In the case I stated, it meant vote for the republican candidate at that time in that race.

 

[nuke]

The day a priest in my church tells me how to vote will be the day I stop going to that church. It's unacceptable to me.

 

[Fitswimmer]

I've never had a priest endorse a specific candidate or party. There was some discussion in NJ over Archbishop Myers saying he could not in good conscience give communion to then Governor McGreevey because McGreevey had expressly stated his support for abortion. McGreevey simply didn't attend Masses that the Bishop celebrated.
The problem I have with the Bishops is that if they are going to deny communion for politicians who are pro-abortion, then they should also deny it to those who vote for or publicly support the death penalty. I have this thing about consistency.

 

[Marie17]

I've also never had a priest announce which party one should vote for - just has never happened to me. They can come out and state what the Catholic faith teaches and that if you desire you can use your faith to cast your vote. BUT as anyone who reads any boards (not just these) people can take one little word out of context or take something another way than it was meant and run with all sorts of ideas.

About the Michigan thing - I just don't know. It seems from about 5 minutes of looking at headlines & "online" articles that some government board wouldn't even allow the petition signatures to go through at first. They had much more than the required valid signatures but a committee of people decided against it - maybe they had an agenda too. Which seems to be the case of accusations from all sides of this argument. I just don't know and quite frankly I really haven't all the time in the world to read all that information - mainly because I wasn't there and actually don't believe you can buy votes which it seems to be saying from the special interest groups involved. Don't say I won't look at all the information but just not now.

 

[JunieJay]

In my old church we were also preached to vote what the Catholic church teaches, pro-life. That means vote republican baby. Yes, the church IS political in many ways that we see and very likely in many ways we DON'T see.

There are hardly any Republicans where I live, so that wouldn't fly here. I commented to my husband upon leaving Mass during the last election how many Kerry/Edwards bumperstickers I saw....

A friend from the midwest told me her elderly mother was bullied by her Priest into voting for Bush. I'd have to find a new parish.

 

[Cool-Beans]

In my old church we were also preached to vote what the Catholic church teaches, pro-life. That means vote republican baby. Yes, the church IS political in many ways that we see and very likely in many ways we DON'T see.

I really don't believe the church is political. The subjects they discuss are ones we all discuss, and end up being political because each party takes a side. The pope isn't a republican or a democrat...he isn't even an American.

And you can bet your bottom dollar that if the Conservatives and Liberals switch sides (say, in 50 years or whatever) on the abortion issue that the church will NOT. The church isn't based on current American political issues.

If you had to put it in political terms, then the overwhelming majority of the church's ideals are Liberal, not Conservative.

They are pro-life at *almost* any cost (and are consistent in that ethic) because that is what they believe is morally correct, not because that's what some people in America think.

No preist, no matter how drunk, has ever told me how to vote. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I don't think it happens a lot.

 

[Marie17]

I really don't believe the church is political. The subjects they discuss are ones we all discuss, and end up being political because each party takes a side. The pope isn't a republican or a democrat...he isn't even an American.

And you can bet your bottom dollar that if the Conservatives and Liberals switch sides (say, in 50 years or whatever) on the abortion issue that the church will NOT. The church isn't based on current American political issues.

If you had to put it in political terms, then the overwhelming majority of the church's ideals are Liberal, not Conservative.

They are pro-life at *almost* any cost (and are consistent in that ethic) because that is what they believe is morally correct, not because that's what some people in America think.

No preist, no matter how drunk, has ever told me how to vote. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I don't think it happens a lot.

This is SO true! Most Americans don't seem to understand this at all and if they whine & complain & protest they think that the Church will finally fold into their desires. Just won't happen. Women will never be priests. Abortion & artificial birth control will never be acceptable. However, priests in the western world may be one day allowed to not be celibate. This is just a tradition (little t) and not Tradition (big difference). I am personally proud to be in a Church that doesn't just decide to change based on the beliefs of certain people. You know why a Tradition hasn't changed and why it won't. If people would just teach the proper reasoning of Catholic doctrines - instead of their personal views - then the church wouldn't have as many problems with what people believe the church teaches.

 

[Pigeon]

Women will never be priests. Abortion & artificial birth control will never be acceptable. However, priests in the western world may be one day allowed to not be celibate. This is just a tradition (little t) and not Tradition (big difference). I am personally proud to be in a Church that doesn't just decide to change based on the beliefs of certain people.

Wow, if that isn't self-contradictory, I don't know what is.

 

[LisaB]

What I don't understand is that we have married priests those ones that were former Espicopalian (sp) We also have married deacons but they can't consentrate the host. SO why don't we just allow priests to become married.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Most Americans don't seem to understand this at all and if they whine & complain & protest they think that the Church will finally fold into their desires.

That was my experience. When I really looked at the reasons why I had trouble with some of the teachings of the Church, it was more about me than anything else. Oh, sure, I dressed it up with pretty language, but in the end I wanted the Church to do things my way.

The whole DaVinci Code thing really brought this in my face. I read the book and thought it was an average thriller, nothing more. I was amazed by how popular it was and how long it stayed on the Best Seller list. Then, I started to think about the "benefit" of the Church lying about the life of Jesus. If the Church lied about the life of Jesus, then they're probably lying about everyting and the whole Bible is a lie too. That means that we don't have to obey any commandments and we can do whatever we want without consequences. No moral code means the "if it feels good, do it" lifestyle runs the world. No wonder people loved it! All responsibility gone, nobody can ever tell you no or judge your actions.

While I can see how it is attractive, there is something inside of me that won't allow me to accept that philosophy.

 

[mickeyfan2]

What I don't understand is that we have married priests those ones that were former Espicopalian (sp) We also have married deacons but they can't consentrate the host. SO why don't we just allow priests to become married.

It will happen soon, probably with the next pope.

 

[goofygirl]

I've never had a priest endorse a specific candidate or party. There was some discussion in NJ over Archbishop Myers saying he could not in good conscience give communion to then Governor McGreevey because McGreevey had expressly stated his support for abortion. McGreevey simply didn't attend Masses that the Bishop celebrated.
The problem I have with the Bishops is that if they are going to deny communion for politicians who are pro-abortion, then they should also deny it to those who vote for or publicly support the death penalty. I have this thing about consistency.

McGreevey left the Catholic church not so much because of this issue, but because he's gay and he felt unaccepted. He is now an Episcopalian. He said it on Larry King recently.

Also, how come the IRS isn't targeting Catholic churches that tell you how to vote? Instead, they want to pick on the liberal All Saints Episcopal Church in CA and want to take away the tax exempt status!

 

[JunieJay]

If I could pick one thing to change first, I'd want women the right to be ordained Priests. It bothers me that men who hear the call from God to become Priests are welcomed, but women who hear the call aren't given the same opportunity. It makes no sense to me whatsoever. I was really hoping JP II successor would bring about change, but when the new Pope was selected I realized that wasn't going to happen. Maybe with the next Pope.

 

[IndianaDVCMember]

This is SO true! Most Americans don't seem to understand this at all and if they whine & complain & protest they think that the Church will finally fold into their desires. Just won't happen. Women will never be priests. Abortion & artificial birth control will never be acceptable. However, priests in the western world may be one day allowed to not be celibate. This is just a tradition (little t) and not Tradition (big difference). I am personally proud to be in a Church that doesn't just decide to change based on the beliefs of certain people. You know why a Tradition hasn't changed and why it won't. If people would just teach the proper reasoning of Catholic doctrines - instead of their personal views - then the church wouldn't have as many problems with what people believe the church teaches.

Under certain circumstances, there can be married Catholic priests. The most common way for this to occur is when an ordained minister (already married) of another faith converts to Catholicism and desired to become a priest. I know of at least one parrish in our diocese in which this has occured.

 

[smartestnumber5]

That was my experience. When I really looked at the reasons why I had trouble with some of the teachings of the Church, it was more about me than anything else. Oh, sure, I dressed it up with pretty language, but in the end I wanted the Church to do things my way.

The whole DaVinci Code thing really brought this in my face. I read the book and thought it was an average thriller, nothing more. I was amazed by how popular it was and how long it stayed on the Best Seller list. Then, I started to think about the "benefit" of the Church lying about the life of Jesus. If the Church lied about the life of Jesus, then they're probably lying about everyting and the whole Bible is a lie too. That means that we don't have to obey any commandments and we can do whatever we want without consequences. No moral code means the "if it feels good, do it" lifestyle runs the world. No wonder people loved it! All responsibility gone, nobody can ever tell you no or judge your actions.

While I can see how it is attractive, there is something inside of me that won't allow me to accept that philosophy.

Why would it follow that if the Bible is just a story you can do whatever you want there is no moral code? Do you think this is what atheists (as well as tons of Christians who think that the Bible and the ten commandments are not literal) do?

 

[Fitswimmer]

Why would it follow that if the Bible is just a story you can do whatever you want there is no moral code? Do you think this is what atheists (as well as tons of Christians who think that the Bible and the ten commandments are not literal) do?

I re-read that post and I really wasn't clear enough in my explanation. For people who are looking for rationalizations for behavior that the Church condemns, finding a way to discredit what the Church believes is a way to support that rationalization. I'm my own example, but I also know other people who did the same thing.
There was a time in my life where I wanted the Church to change it's stance on many things like birth control and women priests. I got all self-righteous about it, saying that the Church was being unfair and unreasonable. I ended up spending a few years out of the Church, and got into the New Age scene. I read Holy Blood, Holy Grail, which has the same premise as DaVinci Code. Once I accepted that premise, that the Church was lying about the life of Jesus, it was very easy to go from that to discrediting EVERYTHING that the Church holds to be true.
Did that mean that I completely gave up a moral code? No, I still held the same moral code that most of society holds. In NO WAY do I believe that only Christians can be moral or that without the Bible you have no morals. Most Catholics I know do not believe in the literal truth of the Bible like the world being created in 7 24 hour days, or that Jonah was actually swallowed by a whale. We believe that the Bible was about faith, not science. However, I do believe that the 10 commandments are literally true. "Thou shall not Kill" is "Thou shall not kill"

 

[Aidensmom]

This is a really interesting thread.

I am a "former" Cafeteria Catholic. I come from a Catholic family, attended Catholic school most of my life, and even at one time entertained the idea of becoming a nun. My beliefs are still the same, I just now belong to a non-denominational church. Some of the things I came to disagree with in the Catholic Church are just so fundamental to it (at least in my experience) that I no longer really felt comfortable calling myself a Catholic. I do still attend Mass on some occassions (weddings, etc) but I don't take communion there. I also still practice some "traditions", such as giving something up for lent, because they are just such a part of how I was raised.

I think in the end, it is not about being a good Catholic, or a good Episcopalian, or a good "insert your denomination here", but it is about your relationship with God.

 

[Marie17]

Yes - there can be married Catholic priests. We had one in a former parish. In the western rite it is usually not unless certain dispensations have been given - such as coming from the eastern rite or conversion for a clergyman from another religion (again, as long as certain dispensations are granted.)

Women will never be priests simply because this was Jesus' way. Jesus did the first ordaining of a group of men - no women. Ordination is a sacrament, and to be valid it must have the proper matter. You can't have beer and pizza at the Eucharist, and you can't have a woman priest.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Yes - there can be married Catholic priests. We had one in a former parish. In the western rite it is usually not unless certain dispensations have been given - such as coming from the eastern rite or conversion for a clergyman from another religion (again, as long as certain dispensations are granted.)

We had one in our diocese but I think it will be a LONG time before we have another one. He was a convert from the Episcopal Church, he had already been a Pastor there for many years. Turns out he was an alcoholic and beat his wife. She finally called the cops on him and he was arrested. It's too bad because he probably ruined it for any others getting in.

 

[Marie17]

Try going to Catholic Answers - for a wide variety of information.

www.catholic.com