Cafeteria Catholics?

[sodaseller]

(there is a term for predators of older kids but I can't remember what it is) Between 12-16, boys are either beginning to mature or have matured. It's similar to the Foley case, his defense is that he was a closeted gay man and preyed upon the 16 year old page because of his fear of being outed..

Ephebophiles

 

[Marie17]

I pray quite frequently that all that do not accept the entire faith are given guidance through the Holy Spirit that they will learn it and understand it at some point in their life (even more for Easter & Christmas Catholics - meaning those that show up just twice a year). Showing up is a start and gives me plenty of hope that the Holy Spirit moved them to go to mass and will hopefully on that soul to continue.

I personally believe you are in constant state of conversion to a fuller understanding of your religion if you are actually open to it.

As for the poster who mentioned NFP is not really reliable - I would tend to disagree. It has better results than any other practicing method (I surely wish they would publish and advertise those studies better). We have known people who could not get pregnant use the program to get pregnant and vice versa.

 

[goofygirl]

I'm not (nor have I ever been) a Roman Catholic. Hope you guys don't mind me posting. This thread has been interesting.

I'm an Episcopalian. My friend calls us "Catholic Light". The liturgy is very similar. Decisions don't come from the Pope, but are voted on at periodic conferences by elected representatives and our House of Bishops. I like the fact that with prayerful consideration, we are governed (at least in part) by the layety. My church also allows us to decide what we think is right (based on scripture) in many cases. I like that.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying my church is better. I have many friends who are Catholic. I think there is room for many types of churches. Mine is just the right fit for me.

I'm an Episcopalian and I feel the same way. It also fits me because I feel my childfree by choice lifestyle is very much accepted in this church.The RCC's stance on no birth control doesn't exactly jibe with not wanting kids!

 

[JoyG]

That's very true. Our pastor always says you have to eat to live.

Baptists believe the same thing. We just believe that our spiritual food comes from reading the Bible.

 

[Fitswimmer]

I personally believe you are in constant state of conversion to a fuller understanding of your religion if you are actually open to it.

I agree. Faith is a journey not a destination and it's a LOT of work.

 

[momof2inPA]

I agree that Christ does not condemn them, for reasons I can get into more extensively if requested, but I'm afraid your version of what the Church teaches is accurate but incomplete. Especially under current leadership, the Church hierarchy pushes ever more loudly to condemn those that are "intrinsically disordered". The laity is not necessarily listening, correctly to my mid, but a close examination of recent Papal pronouncements and those the CDF under JPII will show a very hostile attitude towards all homosexuals

Don't quote the pronouncements on the DIS, it's considered inflamatory.

As the resident DIS Catholic expert, I have a question for you, or I would like your opinion. As worded, it seems that the Church sees those that are chaste as not gay. So, would a man who was once a practicing homosexual (or actively gay if you rather) but who has abstained from sex for a number of years be allowed to enter the priesthood?

 

[OurMsBrooks]

I have so enjoyed reading this thread and all the very thoughtful responses. I'm a Cafeteria Catholic too, and have heard negative comments about that from time to time. However, I don't see it as any different from those people who "church shop" all the churches in their area until they find one that matches their views. I agree with the poster who compared being Catholic to being American: just because I identify myself as one or the other doesn't mean that I check my intellect and free will at the door. Blind acceptance isn't the same as faith.

I think the discussion of NFP has been interesting. Echoing other posters, I don't get the logic of it. Aside from whether or not it "works," I don't see how the mentality of NFP is any different at all from other methods of birth control when it comes to the church's position that all sex should be open to pro-creation. In fact, with NFP I think it's MORE of a contradiction of the teaching, because if you're using it not to get pregnant, then you are spending a part of your day, every single day, taking active steps to avoid pregnancy. How is that any different than using a condom or taking a pill? The intention is exactly the same.

Further, I don't understand the focus on sex as EITHER pro-creative OR for pleasure. There's a lot more to sex than just those two options, most notably the deep connection between two people that is nurtured by sex. I hear a lot of people condemn homosexual sex because children can't result from it. There are all kinds of sex that don't result in the production of children. For example, if a woman has a hysterectomy, should she no longer be allowed to have sex, since a child can't result? Should post-menopausal women abstain from sex? I just don't get it...

 

[JunieJay]

Things I like about Catholicism:
Sameness/routine of mass
Mary
the pope
nuns
the Mass

Here are some more things I like about Catholicism:

-The expression "faith without works is dead." A nun told me that when I was in 5th grade and it always stuck with me. I love that Catholics are called upon to "do good," not just refrain from "doing evil".

-Rosary Beads...haven't used these in years but I recall them leaving me comforted as a young teen.

-The art and the cathedrals. I love the history of Catholicsm.

-Folk Mass. To this day I can't hear Bob Dylan's Blowing in the Wind without getting a warm and fuzzy feeling thinking about the Mass of my youth.

-The sign of the cross and the sign of peace. My elder pre Vatican II relatives hate the latter.

-Notre Dame

-St. Christopher's medals

-Holy Water fonts

-palms behind the crucifixes after Palm Sunday

-lighting candles for those in need

-Lent

Its those sort of cultural references to the Catholic Church that I don't think I could ever get totally away from. I could maybe go visit another church, perhaps even become a member, but the stuff listed above is just part of me. I'm sure most of us cradle Catholics on board all feel that way, there is a cultural attachment to Catholicism like in no other religion (with the exception of perhaps the Jewish religion).

 

[LisaB]

Junie Jay those are so many of the things I love about the Catholic Church. My aunt had a memorial Mass for my mom in December for her birthday. Her church not mine and we didn't do the sign of the peace because of spreading germs. Give me a break you probably get more germs from turning the knobs in your house. To me communion is what the Mass is about. Why are we there is not for the rememberance of the body and blood of Christ. I love that my church serves the wine; it just feels complete.

 

[JunieJay]

Junie Jay those are so many of the things I love about the Catholic Church. My aunt had a memorial Mass for my mom in December for her birthday. Her church not mine and we didn't do the sign of the peace because of spreading germs. Give me a break you probably get more germs from turning the knobs in your house. To me communion is what the Mass is about. Why are we there is not for the rememberance of the body and blood of Christ. I love that my church serves the wine; it just feels complete.

Thats unbelievable about spreading the germs. How silly.

BTW, I just looked at your signature for the first time...RIP William.

 

[nuke]

Those people got more germs opening the door to the church than shaking hands with a few people around them.

I think the discussion of NFP has been interesting. Echoing other posters, I don't get the logic of it. Aside from whether or not it "works," I don't see how the mentality of NFP is any different at all from other methods of birth control when it comes to the church's position that all sex should be open to pro-creation. In fact, with NFP I think it's MORE of a contradiction of the teaching, because if you're using it not to get pregnant, then you are spending a part of your day, every single day, taking active steps to avoid pregnancy. How is that any different than using a condom or taking a pill? The intention is exactly the same.

This has been stated a few times and the pro-NFP people haven't responded to it.

 

[Fitswimmer]

I don't like the Sign of Peace, but not because of germs. I don't like where it is in the liturgy. I think it would be better placed around the time of the Offertory, before the Eucharistic Prayer begins. We will have connected as a community BEFORE we go into the Consecration.

There are all kinds of sex that don't result in the production of children. For example, if a woman has a hysterectomy, should she no longer be allowed to have sex, since a child can't result? Should post-menopausal women abstain from sex? I just don't get it...

Medical issues aren't really the same thing as sex for pleasure only, nor is post-menopause. What I got out of JPII's Theology of the Body was that there isn't anything intrinsically evil about pleasure in sex and the book also discusses the connection formed between the couple and how important it is to a marriage. I understood it to say that the openness to conception should be a part of it. I never understood the difference btw NFP and birth control either, because both methods take the control out of God's hands, which is what I thought the whole point was.

 

[sodaseller]

Don't quote the pronouncements on the DIS, it's considered inflamatory.

As the resident DIS Catholic expert, I have a question for you, or I would like your opinion. As worded, it seems that the Church sees those that are chaste as not gay. So, would a man who was once a practicing homosexual (or actively gay if you rather) but who has abstained from sex for a number of years be allowed to enter the priesthood?

Likely not. The distinction you state, between acts and orientation, used to be sufficient and official. Read Always our Children, a 1997 pastoral letter from the USCCB encouraging continued support of our gay children and understanding what they face. But the recent instruction from the Congregation for Catholic Education, a Vatican dicastery, ans said that a "deeply rooted" homosexual orientation, even one unacted upon, disqualifies one for the priesthood. At most, one can admit to a "transitory" almost experimentation phase that one has not acted upon for at least three years prior to seeking ordination. So even a chaste homosexual who admitted to a strong homosexual orientation would not be admitted. The Vatican apparently believes that "deeply rooted" homosexuals cannot control their urges. They raise the fact that seminaries are all male environments and that temptation will be great. They fail to mention that a heterosexual parish priest will also be presented with great temptation, in many cases presented to him (there are women that seem especially attracted to possibility of attracting a priest), but apparently they can be trusted not to act on them.

How emphatic the Vatican will be in enforcing this prohibition against traditionally independent American seminaries waits to be seen. But there have been Apostolic visits to all seminaries.

Hope that answers your question

 

[JennyMominRI]

Its those sort of cultural references to the Catholic Church that I don't think I could ever get totally away from. I could maybe go visit another church, perhaps even become a member, but the stuff listed above is just part of me. I'm sure most of us cradle Catholics on board all feel that way, there is a cultural attachment to Catholicism like in no other religion (with the exception of perhaps the Jewish religion).

As somone raised Catholic who converted to Judaism ,I have to agree with you..I DO find some similarities between the two religions..Not as much as in theology but in terms of ,I get a very similar feel in the Temple that I go in church.
I will also say that as someone who grew up Catholic,and I was not nominally Catholic,or an Easter and Christmas Catholic, I could still walk into a church and feel at home..I could still recite the mass from memory...I still have great affection for the church. It does feel almost like leaving the country to live somewhere else..Like breaking the link with my childhood,especially knowing that I can never go back...It does a leave a mark on you for the rest of your life. I don't regret my catholic upbringing
Oh,Just on other thing..I also like the Catholic Churches emphasis on works...It's very similar to the Jewish views of good works(Tzedakah,Tikkun Olam,Social Justice etc.)

 

[brerrabbit]

Baptised Catholic but never attended church until I started dating my wife and then went through all the sacrements in 6 months so we could get married in the church. Attended off and on till about five years ago at which time we went to a Methodist church with friends. We now go to church every week and are very involved as I sing in the Choir and help with musicals and plays and my wife serves on the Trustee committee. We decided to switch because we fundamentally did not agree with many points of the Catholic doctrine.

As we were deciding to change I spoke with our priest and did a lot of research on the beliefs and customs of the church and came to the conclusion that much of it was driven by the leaders of the church, circumstance and tradition as opposed to actual biblical facts. So in the end I did not feel as bad leaving.

1. Contraception/ Homosexuality. Believe it or not in the Catholic way of thinking these two issues are related. While Romans says that men laying with men is a sin and an abomination the Catholic church also points out that the "spilling of the seed" is a sin. In other words sex leading to ejaculation that has no chance of bringing new life into the world is a sin. I don't remember the exact biblical reference but someone was told to lay with his brothers wife and while reluctant to do so did but did not finish the act and spilled the seed. For doing so he was punished by God. Therefore if we take this reasoning to its logical conclusion then any sexual act where the married participants are aware that conception will not occur is a sin. So that means older couples who because of natural conditions can't have kids, then they can't have sex. Using even the "rythem method" when the woman knows she is not fertile is a sin. ************ is a sin, any birth control, a sin. The list goes on. This is the root of the Catholic belief that contraception is a sin.

2. No Married Priests. In the beginning of the church priests were in fact allowed to be married. Study Catholic history and you will find many were married long ago. The primary reason the church decided against them getting married was self serving. Since in the early church many of the parishes buildings and land were titled to the local priest there were numerous incidents where upon the priests death local custom allowed that all the deceased's assets were given to the first born male son. This meant assets the Church (Rome) felt belonged to them were being lost to the heirs of the married priests. They chose to stop that by merely passing a new rule in the church that said priests can't get married. No biblical reason merely financial reasons. If that decision was so arbitrary then why can't they make another arbitrary decision to let women become priests?

3. You should never take communion unless you are truley repentent, clean of heart, and have confessed your sins to God, (through a priest of course). Every Sunday we attended mass almost everyone took communion however confession at our parish was for a 45 minute period on Saturday afternoon with usually only one priest hearing confession. Our Parish lists over 4,000 members. You do the math.

4. Catholic tradition is such that over the years since its inception the church preached to the masses that long ago were very illiterate and quite frankly printing had not been invented so each week at mass the priest read parts of the bible to the people and then told them what it meant. No bible study classes, no Sunday school just come on in sit right down and let me tell you what to think. Fast forward 14 or 15 millienium to the year 2000. Come right in sit right down and let me tell you what the bible says. Still no Sunday school (except CCE for the kids) no bible study. The church will tell you what to think.

After considering all these issues and visiting other churches we made the choice to change. I could have stayed and pressed for change in the church but it would have been a life time battle and I would have lost. I also understand that my parrish was not necessarily representative of all Catholic churches but similar to most in my area. So we chose to go elsewhere and it has honestly brought both myself and my family much closer to God than ever before.

 

[LisaB]

BTW, I just looked at your signature for the first time...RIP William.

I did it because my husband is a firefighter and he has kevin reilley which is his name but spelled differently and i picked mahoney because that was my mom's maiden name--they didn't have any bianco's though. it was just our way of remembering the 343 firefighters who died on 9-11.

 

[Fitswimmer]

We decided to switch because we fundamentally did not agree with many points of the Catholic doctrine.

I'm glad you have found a home! You obviously did your homework and had an understanding of the issues that you found problematic.

Our parish does do adult education as well as Catechism classes for the children, so we're fortunate. I'm sure there are many that do not spend time on those things though.

The Rosary also came from a time where most people were illiterate. The Mysteries were a way for people to learn about the life of Jesus without having to read.

 

[goofygirl]

Baptised Catholic but never attended church until I started dating my wife and then went through all the sacrements in 6 months so we could get married in the church. Attended off and on till about five years ago at which time we went to a Methodist church with friends. We now go to church every week and are very involved as I sing in the Choir and help with musicals and plays and my wife serves on the Trustee committee. We decided to switch because we fundamentally did not agree with many points of the Catholic doctrine.

As we were deciding to change I spoke with our priest and did a lot of research on the beliefs and customs of the church and came to the conclusion that much of it was driven by the leaders of the church, circumstance and tradition as opposed to actual biblical facts. So in the end I did not feel as bad leaving.

1. Contraception/ Homosexuality. Believe it or not in the Catholic way of thinking these two issues are related. While Romans says that men laying with men is a sin and an abomination the Catholic church also points out that the "spilling of the seed" is a sin. In other words sex leading to ejaculation that has no chance of bringing new life into the world is a sin. I don't remember the exact biblical reference but someone was told to lay with his brothers wife and while reluctant to do so did but did not finish the act and spilled the seed. For doing so he was punished by God. Therefore if we take this reasoning to its logical conclusion then any sexual act where the married participants are aware that conception will not occur is a sin. So that means older couples who because of natural conditions can't have kids, then they can't have sex. Using even the "rythem method" when the woman knows she is not fertile is a sin. ************ is a sin, any birth control, a sin. The list goes on. This is the root of the Catholic belief that contraception is a sin.

2. No Married Priests. In the beginning of the church priests were in fact allowed to be married. Study Catholic history and you will find many were married long ago. The primary reason the church decided against them getting married was self serving. Since in the early church many of the parishes buildings and land were titled to the local priest there were numerous incidents where upon the priests death local custom allowed that all the deceased's assets were given to the first born male son. This meant assets the Church (Rome) felt belonged to them were being lost to the heirs of the married priests. They chose to stop that by merely passing a new rule in the church that said priests can't get married. No biblical reason merely financial reasons. If that decision was so arbitrary then why can't they make another arbitrary decision to let women become priests?

3. You should never take communion unless you are truley repentent, clean of heart, and have confessed your sins to God, (through a priest of course). Every Sunday we attended mass almost everyone took communion however confession at our parish was for a 45 minute period on Saturday afternoon with usually only one priest hearing confession. Our Parish lists over 4,000 members. You do the math.

4. Catholic tradition is such that over the years since its inception the church preached to the masses that long ago were very illiterate and quite frankly printing had not been invented so each week at mass the priest read parts of the bible to the people and then told them what it meant. No bible study classes, no Sunday school just come on in sit right down and let me tell you what to think. Fast forward 14 or 15 millienium to the year 2000. Come right in sit right down and let me tell you what the bible says. Still no Sunday school (except CCE for the kids) no bible study. The church will tell you what to think.

After considering all these issues and visiting other churches we made the choice to change. I could have stayed and pressed for change in the church but it would have been a life time battle and I would have lost. I also understand that my parrish was not necessarily representative of all Catholic churches but similar to most in my area. So we chose to go elsewhere and it has honestly brought both myself and my family much closer to God than ever before.

Also regarding Communion- the Catholic Church only allows Catholics to take Communion. Other baptized Christians are excluded. That's something that kind of bothers me.

 

[gobears!]

Do other Christian faiths believe the same about Holy Communion as Catholics? If not, then that's why they aren't allowed to participate.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Do other Christian faiths believe the same about Holy Communion as Catholics? If not, then that's why they aren't allowed to participate.

That's the reason. Catholics believe that we are receiving the Body and Blood of Christ in Communion and that the Mass is a sacrifice. Most other Christian faiths view Communion as a memorial and that the bread and wine remains bread and wine.