Cafeteria Catholics?

[Fitswimmer]

From what I've read and been taught, the Church's teaching on sex is that it is an act of love that joins us to each other and to God by the possibility of creating new life. If you're not open to the possibility of a new life being created, or by the nature of the act there is no possibility of new life being created, then sexuality is not being used for it's highest purpose. The creation aspect has been removed and it becomes about pleasure only. The teachings are pretty consistent when it comes to behaviors that are about pleasing ourselves in exclusion of anything else-like gluttony, materialism or sloth . I spend more than the average amount of time confessing those....
As for the Priest issue, I would hope that they are looking just as carefully for men who are excessively materialistic, because then we will have fewer Priests stealing from the collection plate. I also hope that they would not ordain an unrecovered alcoholic or drug abuser either.

 

[Christine]

You know, I promise myself I won't get sucked into these debates but here I am....

Yes, parishes need money to run. They, like Disney, do not exist on pixie dust. Yes, to qualify for in-parish tuition rates you need to contribute to the church (IF YOU ARE ABLE). Those donations help cover the cost of those in the school who cannot pay tuition. Not to mention, heating and cooling, lights, maintenance, etc etc etc.

I'm kind of on the sidelines here watching (I'm a non-Catholic but my kids are in Catholic school).

I just want to agree with Erin on this statement. I don't know how all parishes and schools are run, but in the school my kid's go to, the church "kicks in" a small amount of money for each Catholic child to attend the school. This money is given directly to the school from each church that "feeds" that school. It wouldn't be fair for you, being a Catholic, to NOT go to church, to go to church but not give, and still expect the Catholic "discount." The churh is taking that money you give them and turning around and putting a portion of it into your child's school. As a non-Catholic, I do not contribute to any of the churches, therefore, I pay the full rate, no discounts.

 

[BelleMcNally]

Right, because it's VERY easy to do and keeps the responsibility in the marriage between to two people in the marriage as opposed to simply the one taking the birth control. You simply abstain a few days per month. Really not difficult at all. And no, the rhythm method is NOT the same thing. I highly recommend Toni Weschler's great book, Taking Charge of your Fertility, for clairification.

You know, I have no real problem with Natural Family Planning...I think it's a great thing if it works for a given couple. It would never work for me because my cycles are so irregular (I'm talking a different number of days every single cycle...if I ovulate at all).

Before I was married in the church my husband and I were required to attend classes on NFP. What really bothered me was that the woman teaching the classes (not a doctor or a nurse, mind you) said that if any of us were on birth control, we needed to stop immediately to continue with the class. I told her that i couldn't do that because I was put on the pill for reasons other than contraception (which is true) and at the VERY least, I'd have to consult my doctor about discontinuing a medication which she had given to me and this woman told me, "Well, there's no known medical reason why you have to be on the pill..you're just ruining your body. And if you don't stop taking the pill, you can't come to class."

Now, I needed this class to get married...and there was no way I could just stop my meds...so we had to lie for the duration of the class. I hated that.

 

[momof2inPA]

I am really struggling with this right now. I am a lapsed Catholic, and am starting to feel like a Cafeteria Catholic. I don't attend mass, but I was married in the Catholic Church, and my kids were baptized. I would like to send them to CCD, but I feel like a complete hypocrite about doing that. I would definitetely not be practicing what I preach, but I feel terrible about not giving the kids the foundation (and the sacraments) that I had growing up. It's not their fault I am a bad Catholic.

I think I need to talk to someone about it, but I haven't gotten up the nerve.

Denae

I figure, if you give them the foundation, they can use that knowledge to decide for themselves when they grow up without having to back track through all the sacraments. DH wants to convert to Catholicism but is having trouble finding the time to attend weekly instruction because he travels so much for work. There's comfort somehow in having that foundation, too.

 

[Cool-Beans]

There are some rules in the church that I don't like, and some I've broken. I can think of one very big one that I broke and still am not sorry for in my heart of hearts...I'm damn sorry it exists, and that I may go to hell, wish I hadn't done it, but I'm sure not sorry about it.

My grandma and all the nuns would say "Vatican II" in that tone of voice that let you know we had to go along, but they weren't happy about it.

There are processes in the church to get things changed (or over-ruled, if the preist is acting in a manner not according to the rules), but I'm too lazy to ever bother. And, one thing I like about the church is that it doesn't often change. I like the consistency. Even if I happen to not like certain rules, and wish they didn't exist, I know what they are. It is hard enough being Catholic...if they start changing things all the time, I couldn't keep up.

I like the stories of the saints, the pagentry, stained glass and all the holidays. I even like the prayers (I believe in one God, the Father almighty...) and the mass (Latin mass, too)...although sometimes I think I might fall asleep during the homily. And I love confession. People make fun of it, but it is really nice to be forgiven when you are really sorry.

I wouldn't classify myself as a good Catholic. I go to church and try (and fail) to be a decent person. Fairly religious, but don't do the rosary while I vaccuum, like Grandma did. I used to think as I got older, I'd get better...and while some parts of me get better, some get worse.

But with all my faults, and all the faults of the church, I am, deep in my soul, a Catholic. It is an essential part of my make-up, wouldn't be who I am without it. I've thought about converting, but it wouldn't work - it would be a lie - I just cannot.

 

[momof2inPA]

Not true at all. The catholic church recently decreed that NO homosexual is to become a priest. The church does not take into consideration that the potential priest was celibate, which renders one's sexuality null and void. If you ask me, that is not "love the sinner, hate the sin."

Women can't become priests, either, but I don't feel hated by the Church.

 

[mrsltg]

You know, I have no real problem with Natural Family Planning...I think it's a great thing if it works for a given couple. It would never work for me because my cycles are so irregular (I'm talking a different number of days every single cycle...if I ovulate at all).

You know, there is so much misinformation on NFP. Actually, irregular cycles are the perfect reason to go the NFP route - not even through the Church, just in general. You figure out very quickly when and if you ovulate which makes a HUGE difference when you are trying to get pregnant. Knowing that you (not *you* specifically, the general you)don't ovulate is HUGE step in the right direction. Further, 28 day cycles were invented by birth control companies and OB's. They are the gynecological equivalent of an urban myth! Most women are longer, shorter, somewhere in between. Anyway, I digress - I believe firmly in NFP when other medical reasons are not present, and not because I'm Catholic, but because I am decidedly "pro-woman."

 

[momof2inPA]

Priests who have already been ordained, if they suffer from homosexual impulses, are strongly urged to renew their dedication to chastity, and a manner of life appropriate to the priesthood.

What's the difference between chastity and celibacy? Entertaining un-chaste thoughts and not acting on them is forbidden? That is a constant struggle for many people, no matter their sexual orientation. So, are new priests that have felt gay but are currently chaste allowed in the priesthood? That's very confusing.

 

[SpecialK]

I was raised Catholic, attended Catholic elementary and high schools, and taught in a Catholic school for 15 years. I want my children to be raised with a religion, but I struggle with bringing them up Catholic.

As a woman with sons, I have a problem with the attitude of the Catholic hierarchy toward women and I do not agree with the church's position on birth control and abortion.

Teaching in a Cath. school was also a real eye opener. Many situations occurred where they institution did not live up to the principles it espoused. And the money that was wasted (administratively) was phenomenol. The last pastor I worked for addressed money issues every Sunday. At the same time, he would not move into the rectory until it was remodeled and his jacuzzi tub installed.

I currently stick with Catholicism because it's what I know. I wish I could find a church that made me more comfortable.

 

[mickeyfan2]

DH and I were married in the Catholic Church in 1983. We took the pre-cana classes and they told us all the available birth control methods. I knew I did not want any kids and removed all reference to kids from the ceremony. The Monsignor who presided over our ceremony knew there would be no kids. There was not a problem there. If we ever did find out that we were expecting, then we would have accepted that child as the gift that he or she was.

There are God's laws and there are man's laws. Man's laws are guidelines.

To me attending Mass is like getting recharged.

They may think that getting the gay men out of the priesthood will help with the pedophelia problem, but it won't. Being gay does not make one a pedophile.

 

[momof2inPA]

There are some rules in the church that I don't like, and some I've broken. I can think of one very big one that I broke and still am not sorry for in my heart of hearts...I'm damn sorry it exists, and that I may go to hell, wish I hadn't done it, but I'm sure not sorry about it.

My grandma and all the nuns would say "Vatican II" in that tone of voice that let you know we had to go along, but they weren't happy about it.

There are processes in the church to get things changed (or over-ruled, if the preist is acting in a manner not according to the rules), but I'm too lazy to ever bother. And, one thing I like about the church is that it doesn't often change. I like the consistency. Even if I happen to not like certain rules, and wish they didn't exist, I know what they are. It is hard enough being Catholic...if they start changing things all the time, I couldn't keep up.

I like the stories of the saints, the pagentry, stained glass and all the holidays. I even like the prayers (I believe in one God, the Father almighty...) and the mass (Latin mass, too)...although sometimes I think I might fall asleep during the homily. And I love confession. People make fun of it, but it is really nice to be forgiven when you are really sorry.

I wouldn't classify myself as a good Catholic. I go to church and try (and fail) to be a decent person. Fairly religious, but don't do the rosary while I vaccuum, like Grandma did. I used to think as I got older, I'd get better...and while some parts of me get better, some get worse.

But with all my faults, and all the faults of the church, I am, deep in my soul, a Catholic. It is an essential part of my make-up, wouldn't be who I am without it. I've thought about converting, but it wouldn't work - it would be a lie - I just cannot.

Ahh, that was beautiful.

 

[SandraVB79]

being gay is not related to being a pedophile

 

[mrsltg]

What's the difference between chastity and celibacy? Entertaining un-chaste thoughts and not acting on them is forbidden? That is a constant struggle for many people, no matter their sexual orientation. So, are new priests that have felt gay but are currently chast allowed in the priesthood? That's very confusing.

If I am remembering correctly (I read an article when this all came about) they have to prove/swear they have not acted on a thought in x number of years. Same goes for straight men, though.

As far as the gay men in seminary is concerned, I really feel we are throwing out the baby with the bath water here. Clearly the "cure" for pedophelia is not the ridding of gay men from the Church. This is one of the "headshakers" for me.

 

[BelleMcNally]

You know, there is so much misinformation on NFP. Actually, irregular cycles are the perfect reason to go the NFP route - not even through the Church, just in general. You figure out very quickly when and if you ovulate which makes a HUGE difference when you are trying to get pregnant. Knowing that you (not *you* specifically, the general you)don't ovulate is HUGE step in the right direction. Further, 28 day cycles were invented by birth control companies and OB's. They are the gynecological equivalent of an urban myth! Most women are longer, shorter, somewhere in between. Anyway, I digress - I believe firmly in NFP when other medical reasons are not present, and not because I'm Catholic, but because I am decidedly "pro-woman."

Working as a labor and delivery nurse, I can assure you that I do understand NFP. If a woman's hormones are not functioning "normally" her discharges, mucus quality and amount fluxuate drastically--making it nearly impossible to practice NFP successfully. I think it's wonderful that they've "revamped" the method so that women have another option--but it's not right for all women. I also find it a tad ridiculous that an organization where the hierarchy is entirely made up of men have any real say over a woman's reproduction...but that's another topic for another day.

 

[nuke]

From what I've read and been taught, the Church's teaching on sex is that it is an act of love that joins us to each other and to God by the possibility of creating new life. If you're not open to the possibility of a new life being created, or by the nature of the act there is no possibility of new life being created, then sexuality is not being used for it's highest purpose. The creation aspect has been removed and it becomes about pleasure only. The teachings are pretty consistent when it comes to behaviors that are about pleasing ourselves in exclusion of anything else-like gluttony, materialism or sloth . I spend more than the average amount of time confessing those....
As for the Priest issue, I would hope that they are looking just as carefully for men who are excessively materialistic, because then we will have fewer Priests stealing from the collection plate. I also hope that they would not ordain an unrecovered alcoholic or drug abuser either.

And this it the reason that Natural Family Planning or whatever they are calling these days is ridiculous. What difference does it make if you are using birth control or not having sex on certain days when the end result is no baby? Either way you are going through the act for pleasure only.

 

[JunieJay]

Working as a labor and delivery nurse, I can assure you that I do understand NFP. If a woman's hormones are not functioning "normally" her discharges, mucus quality and amount fluxuate drastically--making it nearly impossible to practice NFP successfully. I think it's wonderful that they've "revamped" the method so that women have another option--but it's not right for all women. I also find it a tad ridiculous that an organization where the hierarchy is entirely made up of men have any real say over a woman's reproduction...but that's another topic for another day.

My biggest concern with promoting NFP lies with women in Africa, where Aids is so prevalent. It just seems like the best moral choice would be to advocate condoms as it pertains to preventing disease, setting aside the issue of birth control.

 

[mrsltg]

Working as a labor and delivery nurse, I can assure you that I do understand NFP. If a woman's hormones are not functioning "normally" her discharges, mucus quality and amount fluxuate drastically--making it nearly impossible to practice NFP successfully. I think it's wonderful that they've "revamped" the method so that women have another option--but it's not right for all women. I also find it a tad ridiculous that an organization where the hierarchy is entirely made up of men have any real say over a woman's reproduction...but that's another topic for another day.

Then you understand about temperatures and cervical position as well? Part of the "trifecta", if you will, of successful NFP. In fact, it very clearly states that a woman should not rely on mucus alone as it will in no way definitively tell you if you have ovulated while a sustained temp. spike and cervical postioning will.

I find it a "tad ridiculous" that someone would suggest chemicals should have control over a woman's reproduction as opposed to the woman herself. But hey, that's just me, and like you say, another topic for another day.

 

[BelleMcNally]

My biggest concern with promoting NFP lies with women in Africa, where Aids is so prevalent. It just seems like the best moral choice would be to advocate condoms as it pertains to preventing disease, setting aside the issue of birth control.

i agree with this

 

[mrsltg]

My biggest concern with promoting NFP lies with women in Africa, where Aids is so prevalent. It just seems like the best moral choice would be to advocate condoms as it pertains to preventing disease, setting aside the issue of birth control.

Of course, celibacy amongst married couples would work. And also, not having sex with multiple partners. Of course, it should also be noted that the efficacy rate of condoms is not 100%, so that's not exactly fool-proof, either.

 

[Pigeon]

Women can't become priests, either, but I don't feel hated by the Church.

I sure do. I felt hated by the church from the time I was seven years old, precisely because girls and women are systematically barred from holding any place in the power structure of the organization.

I was raised catholic, went to catholic schools, have a huge, extended catholic family, the whole nine yards. I do sometimes enjoy being in a catholic church as the ritual feels sort of primal.

But I just couldn't do the cafeteria catholic thing, no matter how hard I tried. There is too much emphasis on things that Jesus was silent about (homosexuality, women priests, birth control, abortion) and too little emphasis, especially these days, on things that Jesus was very vocal about. It makes no sense to me that the church has such massive financial holdings when people are starving, for example. And I couldn't live with myself donating money to an organization that protects pedophiles at the expense of children and encourages the spread of HIV/AIDs through the teachings about condom usage. I just can't imagine Jesus approving.

But still, there are times when I wish I could in good faith be a cafeteria catholic.