BWV vs. BCV

[TeresaNJ]

I recently completed an online survey of my last trip to the Board Walk.

Thought I'd share one of my responses:

"Your outright refusal to keep non guests out of the BW pool completely ruins one of the main benefits of staying at a Disney resort.

Every single time I went to the feature pool with my family there were dozens - literally dozens - of people in the water who were clearly not guests. Many had simply walked over from Epcot and were swimming in their clothes (gym shorts w/underwear visible etc.), no magic bands, no Rapid Fill mugs visible. I saw one family of eight people walk in right off the Boardwalk take off their shoes and socks and hang out for over two hours in the pool. Another day while parking my rental car, I saw a young couple and their baby (again no Magic Bands) park walk up to the resort lobby in their swim wear and then bewilderedly look around until they found the pool. Think they were guests really?

Point the trespassers out to a lifeguard - get a knowing shrug. They can see it - just not do anything about it. Walk up to the front desk and they say "one day there may be a fence like the Beach Club," but today I'm out of luck. Really? And how long do we think it will take Disney to build these fences? This is years in the offing without question - if at all.

This same trip, while walking to Beaches and Cream, I couldn't help notice two things about the Beach Club pool: First, it was fenced off with Disney personnel swiping Magic Bands at the gate. Second, the pool had far far fewer people in it. Gee, I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact you just can't walk in off the street and hop in the water?

I envy the Beach Club pool not because it's "nicer" than the Boardwalk, but simply because it wasn't packed shoulder to shoulder with people.

I envy the Beach Club guests because the management there actually cares about their guests' experience. To my eye, the BC fence isn't about protecting the unique pool, it's about protecting the rights that their guests have so richly paid for. Something the Boardwalk management refuses to do. By the way, when someone gets caught trying to sneak into the Beach Club pool, where do you think they go next, back to Epcot? Or do they walk an extra three minutes and jump in the pool I'm spending hundreds of DVC points to stay at.

When you build a hotel next to a major tourist draw like BW, and within walking distance of two major theme parks, how about making a half an effort to preserve the priviliges you're charging your guests an arm and a leg to enjoy?

Or, if you honestly don't care about this abuse of pool rights then let people know on your website. i.e. "Guests should understand that the feature pool at the Boardwalk Resort is open to the general public and therefore congested to the point of claustrophobia. Guests should be advised that is unlikely they will be able to find a chair, and that you will be forced to simply stand in the water and not actually swim. Further, because of our open pool policy, your children will very likely never get a chance to play any of the poolside games. If you want to enjoy a pool actually reserved for guests may we suggest staying at the Beach Club instead."

Several years ago while staying at the BW, we were at the quiet pool in the evening, and struck up a conversation with a few guys who were also in the pool. They told us they were construction workers ( I forget exactly what they said they did), doing some kind of work at the BW, they lived local, and they were just there to enjoy the pool that evening! I was shocked to say the least, especially that they just came right out and admitted it. I don't think they thought they were doing anything wrong.

 

[Brian430]

It is without question an everyday occurrence and a widespread problem at the Boardwalk.

And to a certain extent I am not surprised by the unmitigated gall of all the people trespassing. After all:

1. There is free parking at the Boardwalk.
2. There are tens of thousands visitors to the theme parks and BW restaurants that are within walking distance of the BW pool.
3. There are free towels.
4. There are free poolside DJs and games.
5. There are free poolside snacks in the form of early evening s'more roasts.
6. There is a bar with umbrella-covered tables.
7. There are comfortable chaise chairs with plenty of shade.
8. And it's obviously often hot outside.

It all adds up to a very tempting scene.

But what I am completely surprised about is that Boardwalk employees simply do not care about the trespassers or have been told to turn a blind eye towards them. I could not get a single lifeguard to do anything but shrug. I could not get anyone at the front desk to do anything but give me a faux sympathetic ear and an apology before sending me on my way.

We're talking about a company that managed to install RFID chip readers in every single soda fountain on property when they felt abusive guests were losing THEM money. But when WE are losing out on something we've paid handsomely for, they can't install a simple fence in 20 years?!?!?

Really?!?!?

By the way, have you seen the "fence" at the Beach Club pool? It's nothing more than a netted rope affixed to wooden posts. But that simple barrier, combined with a minimum-wage employee scanning magic bands, is enough to keep that pool enjoyable for their guests.

Not sure why BC guests get treated so much better than BW guests since the two resorts are essentially right next to each other. But this long-standing problem is definitely something to take into account if you are torn about which DVC property to buy into. It has me looking into putting my 150 BW points on sale so that I can buy BC points instead.

I'm done with this whole situation.

 

[Dean]

In reference to the "significant difference". I see that BWV was available in 1996 and BCV was not until 2002. This would explain the spread in purchase price from Disney. However, unless the "DVC Resource Center" page on these forums is incorrect, it appears that both properties expire in 2042. Was BCV specifically a 40 year property? Or at the time was Disney thinking they would "sync" the expiration dates of all properties perhaps?

Until SSR came along ALL new properties expired the same time, 2042. OKW was originally 50 yrs and everything since has followed suit. Starting with SSR all new properties have been 50 yrs (roughly) to start. Someone else pointed out that the owners there paid more so they want more of a return and I do think that's a small part of it, multiple small parts that add up. Personally BCV isn't worth any difference to me and I don't see that it's worth much of a difference looked at objectively. One could add value for SAB access and the dedicated rooms and subtract value for the lack of views and absence of standard view. Thus I see the difference as hype over reality.

 

[bigtony777]

I think it comes down to stormalong bay and the fewer rooms. We own at BWV and would buy there again if doing it again. I think the standard view BWV rooms are the best value of all DVC rooms. Can't beat the close proximity to two parks with lower points than resorts with much less demand.

 

[crisi]

Our experience has been that the BWV pools is seldom even busy, much less overcrowded with people who shouldn't be there. We swim both mid-afternoon and evenings when we are there.

 

[Pirate Granny]

We have swam over at DVC BWV pool...but we are allowed to pool hop there, and we have always checked with the lifeguards, but as you say they don't seem to care. We are careful not to tie up all the chairs/lounges. We have gone between our morning at EPCOT and afternoon at the studios..or just to cool off in between our studio visit and mini golf day. AND we were staying at BCV, but the kiddio's wanted to get their Auntie who hates clowns...down the clown slide, so we humored them. One thing I don't believe anyone mentioned is that BWV has a community center with activities which BCV does not.

 

[ziravan]

Recently bought at BCV (all closing docs are in on both sides, hoping for close to happen tomorrow!).

When I first started looking, I thought both BCV and BWV were "niche" resorts that wouldn't suit our needs. We were looking at AKV vs. SSR.

Once I realized the huge advantage of staying near EPCOT and the difficulty of booking 7 months out because of how small these resorts are, I focused on BCV and that's where I bought.

Here's what went into my thinking:

Pool - Advantage BCV.
Parking - BCV
Proximity to EPCOT entrance - BCV
Community (center, shops strolling) BWV
Views - BWV
Potential access to economy rooms at 11 months - BWV.
Proximity to DHS - BWV.

The two of those that weighed the most for me was proximity to EPCOT and the pool.

There is another factor that wasn't an issue when I bought. Rumor is that DVC is going to convert WL rooms to VWL after Poly, and then BC rooms to BCV next. That means in three to five years, DVC is going to be selling new BCV points, likely near $200/ point.

That should have a profound impact on the resale market.

Also, my bet is that there will be an extension offer for current owners in conjunction with going back into those resorts. We will know how that process will work when they do VWL.

Combine an extension to say, 2067 (50 years from 3 years from now) for $20 or so a point, with new BCV points at $200/point, and the resale market for BCV has the potential to hit $150/point, or higher. That would make today's resale prices a bargain. Of course, that's speculation.

Thread discussing rumor:

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=3304891

 

[pachelbel9]

Besides the large purchase price difference, the price incentives for the two were significantly different. For BWV the usual incentive was $10 off per point if you gave back first year points meaning at the $65 per point price many paid $55.

Why did Disney want to buy back all those first year points? Was there high demand for DVC rooms for cash?

 

[mjillard]

Recently bought at BCV (all closing docs are in on both sides, hoping for close to happen tomorrow!). When I first started looking, I thought both BCV and BWV were "niche" resorts that wouldn't suit our needs. We were looking at AKV vs. SSR. Once I realized the huge advantage of staying near EPCOT and the difficulty of booking 7 months out because of how small these resorts are, I focused on BCV and that's where I bought. Here's what went into my thinking: Pool - Advantage BCV. Parking - BCV Proximity to EPCOT entrance - BCV Community (center, shops strolling) BWV Views - BWV Potential access to economy rooms at 11 months - BWV. Proximity to DHS - BWV. The two of those that weighed the most for me was proximity to EPCOT and the pool. There is another factor that wasn't an issue when I bought. Rumor is that DVC is going to convert WL rooms to VWL after Poly, and then BC rooms to BCV next. That means in three to five years, DVC is going to be selling new BCV points, likely near $200/ point. That should have a profound impact on the resale market. Also, my bet is that there will be an extension offer for current owners in conjunction with going back into those resorts. We will know how that process will work when they do VWL. Combine an extension to say, 2067 (50 years from 3 years from now) for $20 or so a point, with new BCV points at $200/point, and the resale market for BCV has the potential to hit $150/point, or higher. That would make today's resale prices a bargain. Of course, that's speculation. Thread discussing rumor: http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=3304891

This is speculative, though, and if it doesn't happen you are paying blt prices for a resort that expires in 2042.

 

[ziravan]

This is speculative, though, and if it doesn't happen you are paying blt prices for a resort that expires in 2042.

There are still deals to be had, but you have to look for them. I'm closing on a contract for $84/point with 2015 points borrowed into 2014 and so, 2015 (and 2014) MFs paid. (253 points available without MF - and that's worth another $5/point.) That puts it in striking distance of BWV.

What I noticed is that, right after we reached a deal, most of the brokers pushed the price of BCV to at least 90, and now, you're right, pushing BLT rates. The prices for BCV are listing for $5/point than they were two months ago. I respect the trend, and the push for that trend, but listing and actual price can sometimes be two very different things. Because the recent price jump at BCV seems very artificial to me, my guess is there is quite a bit of room to negotiate.

In any case, while speculation, if it pans out, the potential payoff is huge. Even if it doesn't, Disney learned its lesson with the OKW extension, and I don't think that lesson is: don't offer extensions. I think the lesson is don't offer extensions so soon. The time is coming when 2042 will start to have a dramatic effect on the resale market. That might be 7-10 yrs out before it gets dire, but buyers today for 2042 properties have to consider that a 2042 end date will have a large impact on resale should they want to sell in 5-10 yrs. At that point, I expect Disney (Disney can't afford a resale value crash at several of their resorts, all at once) will offer extensions for all the 2042 resorts, and I expect they'll do much better then. Again, another speculation, but this one is reasonable, given Disney's past actions.

 

[mjillard]

But you can snag bwv for under 80, and I find even that to be high, since ssr can be found easily in the low 70s. Personally, and I know I may possibly be in a reality distortion field here, I find blt at 95 or so to be a great value considering location and expiration date.

 

[DizBub]

But you can snag bwv for under 80, and I find even that to be high, since ssr can be found easily in the low 70s. Personally, and I know I may possibly be in a reality distortion field here, I find blt at 95 or so to be a great value considering location and expiration date.

BLT is a great value with the location and end date compared to the Epcot resorts. We own at BLT and BCV and would like more points at BCV but with the resale prices being so close BLT looks to be the much better choice, especially if you consider MFs.

Wonder what the proposed DVC expansion at BCV will do to resale prices and possible extension of contracts?

 

[mjillard]

BLT is a great value with the location and end date compared to the Epcot resorts. We own at BLT and BCV and would like more points at BCV but with the resale prices being so close BLT looks to be the much better choice, especially if you consider MFs. Wonder what the proposed DVC expansion at BCV will do to resale prices and possible extension of contracts?

It's already driving prices up at the mere speculation.

 

[drusba]

Why did Disney want to buy back all those first year points? Was there high demand for DVC rooms for cash?

That was just the incentive at the time. With OKW originally, there was no discount from whatever the asking price was in the early to mid-1990s. The "discount" for OKW came in two forms. Those who bought while at WDW got a credit off the purchase price for an amount equal to whatever room price the guest was paying to stay at WDW. OKW purchasers also got free passes to the parks (which expired in 1999). Then came Vero, Hilton Head and BWV in a nine month period from october 1995 to July 1996. Probably because the room credit incentive could not really work for HH and VB, Disney created a $10 a point incentive but you had to give back your first year's points. For many that was not a big deal because Disney was usually selling a use year that began five months before the purchase month and thus you were raeally only giving back 1/2 year. Disney undoubtedly used those points to rent rooms. That was the incentive when VWL came along in 2000, but when BCV hit the market it was changed to only $5 a point but only for BCV. In the early 2000, they actually raised the give back incentive for HH and VB to $15.


It was not untill SSR came along in 2004 that the incentive was changed to the modern structure where you have an asking price but you get a discount off that price without losing first year points. Some considered that better than the one year buy back deal but many of us realized what had really happened. In a short period from 2002 to 2004, the asking price, before any discounts, went up almost 40%. Thus, Disney was able to make a new $10 discount appear to be a great deal to new purchasers that was significantly better than the previous deal that had you selling back first year points, when all that had really happened is that Disney had in a very short period raised the new purchase price well beyond the price at which it really wanted to sell the new resort. That strategy was repeated before VGF went on sale. From the end of 2010 to July 2012, Disney raised the price of BLT by almost 40% from $120 to $165, but most BLT sales occurred before 2011 at $120 a point or less. After "galloping" the price up in less than two years, VGF went on sale at the seemingly "bargain" price of $145 to exisiing members and shortly thereafter $150 to new purchasers--Disney's strategy had worked once again

 

[bobbiwoz]

....

Wonder what the proposed DVC expansion at BCV will do to resale prices and possible extension of contracts?

Where can I read about this?

 

[ziravan]

Where can I read about this?

VWL first, then BCV is the rumor:

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=3304891

And the $5/point price move on BCV was already a fait accompli before the rumor (and no equivalent price move on VWL).

 

[bobbiwoz]

VWL first, then BCV is the rumor:

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=3304891

And the $5/point price move on BCV was already a fait accompli before the rumor (and no equivalent price move on VWL).

Thanks.

 

[pachelbel9]

That was just the incentive at the time. With OKW originally, there was no discount from whatever the asking price was in the early to mid-1990s. The "discount" for OKW came in two forms. Those who bought while at WDW got a credit off the purchase price for an amount equal to whatever room price the guest was paying to stay at WDW. OKW purchasers also got free passes to the parks (which expired in 1999). Then came Vero, Hilton Head and BWV in a nine month period from october 1995 to July 1996. Probably because the room credit incentive could not really work for HH and VB, Disney created a $10 a point incentive but you had to give back your first year's points. For many that was not a big deal because Disney was usually selling a use year that began five months before the purchase month and thus you were raeally only giving back 1/2 year. Disney undoubtedly used those points to rent rooms. That was the incentive when VWL came along in 2000, but when BCV hit the market it was changed to only $5 a point but only for BCV. In the early 2000, they actually raised the give back incentive for HH and VB to $15. It was not untill SSR came along in 2004 that the incentive was changed to the modern structure where you have an asking price but you get a discount off that price without losing first year points. Some considered that better than the one year buy back deal but many of us realized what had really happened. In a short period from 2002 to 2004, the asking price, before any discounts, went up almost 40%. Thus, Disney was able to make a new $10 discount appear to be a great deal to new purchasers that was significantly better than the previous deal that had you selling back first year points, when all that had really happened is that Disney had in a very short period raised the new purchase price well beyond the price at which it really wanted to sell the new resort. That strategy was repeated before VGF went on sale. From the end of 2010 to July 2012, Disney raised the price of BLT by almost 40% from $120 to $165, but most BLT sales occurred before 2011 at $120 a point or less. After "galloping" the price up in less than two years, VGF went on sale at the seemingly "bargain" price of $145 to exisiing members and shortly thereafter $150 to new purchasers--Disney's strategy had worked once again

Very interesting. Thanks for the response!

 

[Dean]

In any case, while speculation, if it pans out, the potential payoff is huge. Even if it doesn't, Disney learned its lesson with the OKW extension, and I don't think that lesson is: don't offer extensions. I think the lesson is don't offer extensions so soon. The time is coming when 2042 will start to have a dramatic effect on the resale market. That might be 7-10 yrs out before it gets dire, but buyers today for 2042 properties have to consider that a 2042 end date will have a large impact on resale should they want to sell in 5-10 yrs. At that point, I expect Disney (Disney can't afford a resale value crash at several of their resorts, all at once) will offer extensions for all the 2042 resorts, and I expect they'll do much better then. Again, another speculation, but this one is reasonable, given Disney's past actions.

No one knows what will happen on extensions or at the end of the RTU. We can speculate but I see no evidence to suggest any option is more likely than another. I'd say it's about 50/50 whether any type of extension is offered or not and if it is, there are many variables. IMO the most likely possibility IF an extension is offered is for it to be tied to an additional retail purchase of some type. I'd agree that an OKW type of deal is dramatically unlikely, after that, who knows.

 

[DougEMG]

While BLT resale price looks good compared to BCV because of the extra years you are getting with BLT, for some of us that doesn't matter that much. I'm not going to be around till the end of the BLT contract.

I think BCV will always have a slightly higher resale price over BWV because of higher demand for BCV just because of SAB and lower supply of BCV contracts because the resort is smaller.