Buying at Riviera?

[Sydnerella]

We are interested in buying at Riviera. We do not have any DVC contracts currently. I’ve been browsing the DVC boards since Nov and watching DVC show - but it’s unclear to me the best way to go about buying Riviera to get the best value. And it’s unclear if my calculations are correct at Riviera.

Are there any deals or recent deals I should know about buying direct? Or any scoop on how things have evolved buying RR DVC.

My family of 4 loves Disney, husband included.We have two high schoolers who still are not too cool for Disney and our Junior still wants to be an imagineer. Possibly headed to UCF - note we’re in Minnesota. We may relocate to FL in retirement - 12 -15 years - we may stay here and travel and include Disney about every other year into our retirement.

We loved the RR preferred view 1BR at TG - we love the more boutique styling and size. Generally skyliner is great and we “want to stay here” - something we heard is important.

Is it booking up at 11 months for the peak periods (but not Xmas)?

We want at least some direct points to allow flexibility with other properties - new ones in particular (DLHotel, others) though that isn’t guaranteed I know. And Beach Club, Boardwalk, Copper Creek and Bay lake appeal enough to tryout for stays. Even Key West seems ok when/if family grows.

It seems that any resale points cannot be used at Riviera unless they are from Riviera correct? So we would have to be happy to only stay at Riviera with any resale RR points, even if new resorts come online. Which is less desirable, so it feels like direct is better for us...

But pricing out the cost of Riviera, I have a hard time finding it much of a good value or savings Over getting a 30% to 35% room discount.

To stay in a one bedroom every other year for a week buying now:

200pts at $180 = $36000
Annual Dues: $8.38 x 200 = $1676 x 49 years
= 82124 + 36000 = $118,124 approximate investment.

A one bedroom preferred view for a week is 1100x7= 7784
Then at a 30% discount (approx 5450) every other year would take approx 21 stays or more to recoup costs... 40 years... .

What am I missing that makes this a good deal at all? A wrong assumption I can get a 30% discount at RR into the future? Even with 20% the DVC isn’t a great bargain. An assumption that the rack rate is going to keep increasing therefore the deal is that much better? How much more expensive can these rooms get? Will they be double their current cost? Unlikely. Will they go up? Yes, but enough to make this a good value?!?! I find it hard to believe.

Please tell me I’m calculating something wrong cuz I would love to own RR DVC but it seems like I’m better off going with cash side... this is banking on it being available to book into the future with a reasonable (20-30%) discount of course...

 

[DVC Doctor]

We are interested in buying at Riviera.

What am I missing that makes this a good deal at all?

Please tell me I’m calculating something wrong cuz I would love to own RR DVC but it seems like I’m better off going with cash side... this is banking on it being available to book into the future with a reasonable (20-30%) discount of course...

I think the thing you are missing is the resale value of your contact as DVC holds value pretty well. Even OKW that was bought 30 years ago for $50pp can be sold now for $90pp and that is after 30 year use. Thus, if you buy Riviera and use it as you plan for at least 7 years, then the resale value is pretty stable. In other words, you can probably recoup most of your initial investment (but use 75% as a safe calculation). It is doubtful that you will keep this contract the full 50 years.

 

[Bing Showei]

Unless you can hop into a time machine, jump back to 2018, and buy resale points elsewhere (outside of early December, 1BR Preferred year round will not be hard at exactly 7 months), buying direct will be your best bet to stay at Riviera and explore other Disney timeshare properties.

Some may advocate buying resale elsewhere at the Original 14 resorts, and then potentially renting those points out and staying cash/renting Riviera, or some permutation on that formula, but personally, I feel there’s already enough hoops we jump through to use our Disney timeshare. Why introduce another layer?

As you pointed out, buying Riviera resale is really pigeonholing yourself into staying only there unless you are willing to jump through the same hoops noted above when buying resale elsewhere. Both of which rely on a continuing healthy rental market, adding additional risk to your timeshare ownership (more on this below).

With the the resort being so new, the dearth of Riviera resale contracts prevents establishing a reliable delta against its direct “equivalent” (if there still exists such a thing), and may not yet reflect how the market will eventually price the uniquely restrictive nature of this new resale product. So right now, you’ll probably pay some premium over eventual market valuation.

If it were my family, and I was certain I wanted to buy into Disney’s timeshare system, buying Riviera direct would be a no-brainer for us for a few reasons. One, we think the resort is gorgeous and would be happy to stay there most years (a sentiment you seem to share), and two, we would treat it as a luxury purchase where we could afford to pay for the convenience of using those precious direct Riviera points to stay at Boardwalk, or BLT even though there are MUCH more cost effective ways to do that. In that same vein, I would be willing to pay to FOMO-proof my purchase.

If you are not certain you want to buy into the Disney timeshare system (and there are host of good reasons not to here, here, and here), I would say buying retail at any Disney timeshare resort is assuming greater risk than buying resale.

Beyond retail vs. resale, buying a Disney timeshare, you are contractually obligated to pay to keep that timeshare resort operating for the next 21-49 years, regardless of how diminished the park experience becomes, or how well/poorly The Walt Disney Company treats its park guests. You are committing to paying dues year after year regardless of how out-of-love you may suddenly fall with fake castles, how badly the financial markets crash, how insecure your job suddenly becomes, how your high-schooler becomes a grad school applicant in need of extended financial support, how Florida joins a bevy of states to secede from the Union denying MN access to Orlando.

All that is to say, staying on cash buys you freedom. The tendency on these boards is to highlight the years of savings over paying discounted rack rates, but seldom is the value of freedom factored into the equation. If this past year has proven anything, it’s that life can come at you hard and fast; sometimes out of left field. Paying cash, your ability to turn off Disney for a few years will trump the commitments of timeshare ownership.

ETA: Given Disney’s propensity for putting profit before ownership interest as it pertains to moving direct product. You are best off assuming you will recoup nothing from your timeshare purchase. If it were up to Disney, every owner would be stuck with their contract until year 50 and the only way to buy points would be by way of retail. The resale restrictions are unlikely to be the last step to that end.

 

[Sandisw]

I will add one more aspect. Right now, about 55% of RIV is still owned by DVD..meaning lots of rooms for cash and lots of incentives for them to give cash guests higher discounts.

Once RIV is 100% declared into DVC, you may not find the cash rooms to book like you can now. You may indeed not get the same discounts.

Now, staying every other year in a 1 bedroom may not provide the savings. But you may decide, once you own, that a SV 1 bedroom will do so you can go for longer. Or, you’ll realize you can do a few trips when you can do a studio

 

[RoseGold]

You have high schoolers who may not want to go to Disney when they are in college or starting their new jobs. This is a BIG commitment when you might be out of a 1BR in a few years, and for a trip maybe every couple years.

The math on resale is much easier to swallow and much less commitment. Historically, you can sell resale for roughly what you bought it for, or maybe more, in some cases. A huge RIV contract is different, because we don't know what will happen to its resale. At this rate, and with no construction in sight, RIV will probably be for sale for many, many years. There is no rush.

Also, the RIV chart is no joke. The legacy charts are much more value per point, it's why Boardwalk can be a good value, even though it expires in 2042. That chart is why I bought VGF resale. The RIV chart is uncomfortably close to VGF, which I consider a far superior property.

If your goal is to stay at RIV, and you aren't in a rush, RIV resale might be looking very good in a couple years. Historically, Disney (usually) doesn't buy back resorts it is currently selling, and that could be a while for RIV.

Cash discounts are very good right now. Maybe the solution for now is to stay RIV a couple years and then reassess the market. DVC, direct or resale, is not going anywhere.

And yea, I have yet to find anyone who paid rack rate for a RIV room. Poly/VGF are different stories, they can and do sell out at those rates.

 

[RoseGold]

Even OKW that was bought 30 years ago for $50pp can be sold now for $90pp and that is after 30 year use. Thus, if you buy Riviera and use it as you plan for at least 7 years, then the resale value is pretty stable. In other words, you can probably recoup most of your initial investment (but use 75% as a safe calculation)

This is outdated math. It is not realistic to expect a direct purchase to increase in value, like the old properties did. It hasn't happened in a decade.

Reality is, many of the CCV contracts for sale right now are people losing money, some of them a whole lot of money. Poly and Aulani sellers can be losing money, even BLT can be. VGF direct held up a little better, but it's definitely still possible to have lost money, especially after closing costs and commissions to sell. The math is even worse if you financed.

You can look up the historical direct price for all of these properties, and their current resale price.

If you bought BLT direct in 2011 at 150, using 200 points, $800 closing, the board sponsor's BLT resale for Dec 2020 of 149, and 8.5% commission rate, you lost $3,533, down almost 12%. And that's with no financing on one of the best properties in the DVC system.

If you sold in 2015, again using board sponsor average resale of 112 in 2015, you lost $10,304, 34%.

Now, if you bought the 2009 VGC for $112, you are looking very smart, LOL.

 

[Lakegirl]

If you buy direct for Riveria then buy BLT resale can you use your BLT points at future resorts?

 

[poofyo101]

If you buy direct for Riveria then buy BLT resale can you use your BLT points at future resorts?

No

 

[Lakegirl]

No

So no resale points can be used to book Riveria ?

 

[RoseGold]

So no resale points can be used to book Riveria ?

There are many, many classes of DVC and some resale points are grandfathered in. Resale (that is not RIV resale) bought now can't book at RIV.

 

[Lakegirl]

Thank you for the clarification,

 

[Sandisw]

So no resale points can be used to book Riveria ?

Resale points now are not valid at RIV unless they are RIV. And RIV resale points are not eligible to be traded into BVTC to book other resorts.

However, there is nothing to prevent someone from buying RIV to be used exclusively at RIV and then buy other resale points, such as BLT to use at the L14.

Buying direct is the only way to currently have the ability to use at all resorts,

 

[PurdueTodd]

Prices at Disney will continue to increase. You’re buying at a discount today compared to the future. We bought direct at Riviera and a combination of resale and direct at CC. My wife and I are in our 50’s. We have a son that’s 32 and a daughter that’s 8. We also have 2 grandchildren. Our plan is staying in a two bedroom every year rotating between the contracts. 150pts at each resort allows us to do that. That gives us 300pts a year. We don’t plan on living for another 50 years. Our oldest is already on the deeds and our youngest will be added when she turns 18. Our kids and grand kids will grow up Disney, and be able to share that with their families for many years after we are gone. So for us, it’s a legacy that we can pass on to them.

 

[Sydnerella]

Some may advocate buying resale elsewhere at the Original 14 resorts, and then potentially renting those points out and staying cash/renting Riviera, or some permutation on that formula, but personally, I feel there’s already enough hoops we jump through to use our Disney timeshare. Why introduce another layer?

Agreed - the complex of that wouldn’t appeal. While I love to plan Disney trips and score good ADRs and FPs I dont have or want to take the time for this set of hoops!

As you pointed out, buying Riviera resale is really pigeonholing yourself into staying only there unless you are willing to jump through the same hoops noted above when buying resale elsewhere. Both of which rely on a continuing healthy rental market, adding additional risk to your timeshare ownership (more on this below).

With the the resort being so new, the dearth of Riviera resale contracts prevents establishing a reliable delta against its direct “equivalent” (if there still exists such a thing), and may not yet reflect how the market will eventually price the uniquely restrictive nature of this new resale product. So right now, you’ll probably pay some premium over eventual market valuation.

If it were my family, and I was certain I wanted to buy into Disney’s timeshare system, buying Riviera direct would be a no-brainer for us for a few reasons. One, we think the resort is gorgeous and would be happy to stay there most years (a sentiment you seem to share), and two, we would treat it as a luxury purchase where we could afford to pay for the convenience of using those precious direct Riviera points to stay at Boardwalk, or BLT even though there are MUCH more cost effective ways to do that. In that same vein, I would be willing to pay to FOMO-proof my purchase.

If you are not certain you want to buy into the Disney timeshare system (and there are host of good reasons not to here, here, and here), I would say buying retail at any Disney timeshare resort is assuming greater risk than buying resale.

Beyond retail vs. resale, buying a Disney timeshare, you are contractually obligated to pay to keep that timeshare resort operating for the next 21-49 years, regardless of how diminished the park experience becomes, or how well/poorly The Walt Disney Company treats its park guests. You are committing to paying dues year after year regardless of how out-of-love you may suddenly fall with fake castles, how badly the financial markets crash, how insecure your job suddenly becomes, how your high-schooler becomes a grad school applicant in need of extended financial support, how Florida joins a bevy of states to secede from the Union denying MN access to Orlando.

Legit Giggles!

All that is to say, staying on cash buys you freedom. The tendency on these boards is to highlight the years of savings over paying discounted rack rates, but seldom is the value of freedom factored into the equation. If this past year has proven anything, it’s that life can come at you hard and fast; sometimes out of left field. Paying cash, your ability to turn off Disney for a few years will trump the commitments of timeshare ownership.

This is all helpful insight to a new researcher. I would not want to miss out on a good value at Riviera, but since we are on the fence about being in DVC and nobody disputes my math, the luxury purchase is not worth it unless we had received a cash windfall and we agreed to use it for the luxury of never having FOMO. But since that’s not the situation now, and our annual travel budget allows for a bit of luxury anywhere, staying at our beloved Riviera cash/retail at a discount seems a better fit as you say due to having financial flexibility to head to Europe for a month or do an Asian parks trip or whatever when travel is back. Or take a Disney hiatus until Chapek stops transferring his save-a-buck-screw-the-guest brain to D’Amaro.


ETA: Given Disney’s propensity for putting profit before ownership interest as it pertains to moving direct product. You are best off assuming you will recoup nothing from your timeshare purchase. If it were up to Disney, every owner would be stuck with their contract until year 50 and the only way to buy points would be by way of retail. The resale restrictions are unlikely to be the last step to that end.

You have high schoolers who may not want to go to Disney when they are in college or starting their new jobs. This is a BIG commitment when you might be out of a 1BR in a few years, and for a trip maybe every couple years.

The math on resale is much easier to swallow and much less commitment. Historically, you can sell resale for roughly what you bought it for, or maybe more, in some cases. A huge RIV contract is different, because we don't know what will happen to its resale. At this rate, and with no construction in sight, RIV will probably be for sale for many, many years. There is no rush.

Super helpful to hear/see!

Also, the RIV chart is no joke. The legacy charts are much more value per point, it's why Boardwalk can be a good value, even though it expires in 2042. That chart is why I bought VGF resale. The RIV chart is uncomfortably close to VGF, which I consider a far superior property.

I respectfully disagree about it being far superior - GF is nice and huge, too huge, and it has lovely restaurant options - which it needs at that size - but the style is less ours than Riv - And the Riviera 1 BR is more comfortable (murphy bed, space, bathroom layout, space) and luxurious than GF. But I will say it’s definitely a preference thing. That said, your point is well taken. It‘s a premium cost.

If your goal is to stay at RIV, and you aren't in a rush, RIV resale might be looking very good in a couple years. Historically, Disney (usually) doesn't buy back resorts it is currently selling, and that could be a while for RIV.

Cash discounts are very good right now. Maybe the solution for now is to stay RIV a couple years and then reassess the market. DVC, direct or resale, is not going anywhere.

Again - Super helpful to hear/see.

And yea, I have yet to find anyone who paid rack rate for a RIV room. Poly/VGF are different stories, they can and do sell out at those rates.

Hopefully these discounts do stay for a good period, those annual dues are no joke - making the Riv DVC very expensive - so using discounts on retail side instead to stay in the best one bedroom on property and having future flexibility is a better deal for us for now. Kids are already older so we have waited this long, not sure DVC is for us now! Thank you!

 

[Spark65]

Disney and it's location offers quite a bit to a wide range of ages. We generally always go to Universal while staying there and there is plenty of other things to do in and around Orlando itself

As far as the poster above saying your kids may not want to go while in college or otherwise who cares they are adults nothing says they have to go. Keep in mind my son left college volunteered to go to war in the Middle East and my wife wanted to take him somewhere when he came home. My older son, former Army, said he'd only want to go to a beach and clear his head not this one first thing he said was I want to go Disney!

And so he did!

Our stay last March he was training in PR while we were at Disney was forced to fly home instead of direct to FL and then flew down to meet us in Disney, he never left the airport. Disney is for everyone regardless of age.

 

[Sydnerella]

Prices at Disney will continue to increase. You’re buying at a discount today compared to the future. We bought direct at Riviera and a combination of resale and direct at CC. My wife and I are in our 50’s. We have a son that’s 32 and a daughter that’s 8. We also have 2 grandchildren. Our plan is staying in a two bedroom every year rotating between the contracts. 150pts at each resort allows us to do that. That gives us 300pts a year. We don’t plan on living for another 50 years. Our oldest is already on the deeds and our youngest will be added when she turns 18. Our kids and grand kids will grow up Disney, and be able to share that with their families for many years after we are gone. So for us, it’s a legacy that we can pass on to them.

Thanks for sharing this way of using your points - Its a great idea if 300 pts could get a 2 BR at Riv when we travel.. Fall 2 or March/April Spring. This sounds really lovely for your family! The legacy is something all will enjoy. I think we are learning the legacy is a luxury we are better off delivering to our family and future family in a different way based on our math right now. Perhaps someday we can rent your points if the “prices continue to increase” and discounts are less plentiful! Happy travels - these are both amazing resorts and will make for lovely vacations!

 

[PurdueTodd]

Thanks for sharing this way of using your points - Its a great idea if 300 pts could get a 2 BR at Riv when we travel.. Fall 2 or March/April Spring. This sounds really lovely for your family! The legacy is something all will enjoy. I think we are learning the legacy is a luxury we are better off delivering to our family and future family in a different way based on our math right now. Perhaps someday we can rent your points if the “prices continue to increase” and discounts are less plentiful! Happy travels - these are both amazing resorts and will make for lovely vacations!

Thank you for your kind words. There are so many of us that grew up without any sort of luxury. A Disney vacation was then, as it is today for many, a once in a lifetime trip. I know when I’m long gone, my grand babies Will have a piece of the magic.

 

[The Jackal]

Traditionally if you buy direct and sell in a few years you will have lost some money. The longer you hold on and use it, the prices rise on direct and resale prices rise some. Let’s not forget if you bought it, used it for 5 years, similar to PVB right now, sell it for $148 per point. Direct pricing ended at $165 per point if I remember correctly. If you didn’t get any incentives. So you lost about $17 per point. At 100 points that is $1,700 + $3,525 (MF’s I’m lazy and just used 2021 MF’s for all 5 years). You are out $5,525. That means you spent about $1,105 on a room per year at WDW. That is right below what a moderate resort would cost. Calculate in other DVC savings on food and merchandise (this only works if you can control your spending and how many time you go to WDW, the more DVC you buy the more you go, the more you spend). We initially bought 175 points for a yearly trip, fast forward 1 year we have 350 points and go twice a year.
The big problem the OP is having is 1 bedrooms have a very high point cost compared to a studio. Studios make more sense, it’s less than 1/2 the points of a 1 bedroom. There is no guarantee that Disney will have a 1 bedroom to rent to you when the resort sells out. Especially with the resale restriction 10-15 years down the road. Renting points from an owner vs owning points makes more sense, but with what happened this past year, no one knows. I’m not sure if you cash rate includes taxes, but they add up quickly when renting from Disney. Good luck.

 

[Yankee626]

Why would you buy at Riviera with all the restrictions and high maintenance fees involved ? You can buy any resort direct from Disney and still have the ability to stay at the Riviera when you want plus any new resort. I would suggest something Like BLT or SS which both have lower MF . I believe Saratoga is selling for $165 a point for a direct purchase right now.

 

[PurdueTodd]

Why would you buy at Riviera with all the restrictions and high maintenance fees involved ? You can buy any resort direct from Disney and still have the ability to stay at the Riviera when you want plus any new resort. I would suggest something Like BLT or SS which both have lower MF . I believe Saratoga is selling for $165 a point for a direct purchase right now.

I’ve heard it many times on this board, but where you want to stay at. My wife likes riviera so we bought it. Happy wife, happy love life.