Budget Airlines

[sam_gordon]

Flying seems like such a nightmare right now.

How is it that flying has gotten so much worse while getting more expensive when, presumably, we now have all these purported genius AI systems at the disposal of one of the most lucrative industries on the planet? As a society we have satellite weather data, monitors and cameras everywhere, self driving planes and atomic clocks and on the sales side every single flight that exists at the disposal of a system designed to make flying the best possible experience for humans. How are there any miscalculations at all now? Why are planes late? Why is weather disruption missed? Where is the money saved & why aren't flights more direct and cheaper? Maybe humans are just better and we need to get back to humans in air travel because if this is what advanced looks like it is a disaster.

Can't stand it, flying used to be so much fun.

Lots to unpack here.

First, even with new computer models, weather forecasting is not 100%, even the same day. The further out the forecast is, the more likely it's going to be wrong. Weather has been a BIG disrupter for air travel this year.

I feel there are also more people flying, taking up available seat inventory, and because of "supply and demand", that increases what airlines can/do charge. If you want airfare to be cheaper, convince a bunch of people to not fly.

EVERY flight is "direct". If you're going JFK>ATL>MCO, that's TWO direct flights. Why doesn't an airline fly JFK>MCO (yes, they probably do, this is just an example)? Because they don't think there's enough of a market there to make a profit by the time you add the people and the plane to provide that flight.

I still enjoy flying. Even with TSA, getting to the airport early, connections, waiting through delays, everything. I still enjoy it.

 

[mi*vida*loca]

If they don't fly a route multiple times per day or only every so often, what happens when there is bad weather or a maintenance issue and no other flights are offered? I rarely need to call any airline since you can do virtually everything online. Not having a live person to talk with wouldn't cause me to avoid any airline.

You can be rescheduled days or even a week out and they automatically move you. That is what happened to a friend of mine. He ended up booking a different airline to get home and being refunded by frontier but it took a while.

I don’t remember the last time I ever had to speak to a live agent but with budget airlines having their own issues I don’t like that they refuse live agents. It’s a hot topic with spirit when things go bad. There’s no recourse since you can’t ever talk to anyone.

 

[tzolkin]

I am guessing part of why it is that much cheaper is the red eye return. Have you done as close as possible a pricing comparison with flights at those same times with the bigger airlines?

I don't think it's because it's a red eye. The departure and return flights on Spirit are the same price. According to the website they only have one of each per day so that's the only option if we went with them.

The dramatic price difference is because I was only looking at non-stop flights. American, Spirit, and Frontier are the only three that offer non-stop flights from CLT to Vegas (at least for all the dates I have looked at). If we fly on Delta, the difference between them and Spirit is only around $100 but Delta would not be a direct flight.

We typically try to do direct flights whenever possible to minimize issues with delays and missed connections, but that's probably the better option if I want to save money. Usually, the direct flights are only minimally more expensive, but in this case they are more than double the price.

Just asking as you understand that if they cancel your 8 am flight, the next flight they offer you may well be after your return date…

Yes. I would hope since they fly every day that we would get on a flight one or two days later, not have to wait over a week but I do understand that's a possibility (and that's why I normally never even look at the budget airlines).

 

[Starport Seven-Five]

Additional info:
-- Just spouse and I
-- Nonstop flights-- only thing offered on Spirit is 8:00am going and 11pm returning
-- Price difference is around $850
-- We are planning to "do Vegas" for a few nights at the beginning of the trip, then rent a car and stay with family in town the remainder. So, it would be really disappointing if our departure flight was affected, but not a huge deal if we had to stay for an extra day or two on the return home.

Late flights out of Vegas are a circus. Too many people party hard and miss their early flights and end up standby for later ones. Couple that with weather delays and you’re pretty much screwed if your late flight has an issue.

I try to fly out in the morning from Vegas to avoid that headache.

 

[Robbie Cottam]

They have one

I don't think it's because it's a red eye. The departure and return flights on Spirit are the same price. According to the website they only have one of each per day so that's the only option if we went with them.

The dramatic price difference is because I was only looking at non-stop flights. American, Spirit, and Frontier are the only three that offer non-stop flights from CLT to Vegas (at least for all the dates I have looked at). If we fly on Delta, the difference between them and Spirit is only around $100 but Delta would not be a direct flight.

We typically try to do direct flights whenever possible to minimize issues with delays and missed connections, but that's probably the better option if I want to save money. Usually, the direct flights are only minimally more expensive, but in this case they are more than double the price.


Yes. I would hope since they fly every day that we would get on a flight one or two days later, not have to wait over a week but I do understand that's a possibility (and that's why I normally never even look at the budget airlines).

flight a day and try to fill it …. Once it is full…. Well, how about tomorrow ?

 

[leebee]

Allegiant only flies on Saturday and Wednesday to and from our local airport, so there's no way I'd book them for a vacation. However, if you are flying to/from places where they fly every day and have multiple flight options, it might be worth it, provided you wouldn't lose big bucks if your plans are disrupted.

Southwest is having a pretty good sale right now, if that's an option, but the sale ends tonight. I just booked RT Portland Maine to Orlando for about $150! (guess who's going solo to Disney?!)

 

[tzolkin]

They have one

flight a day and try to fill it …. Once it is full…. Well, how about tomorrow ?

Technically, they have a bunch of flights per day, but there is only one that is direct. (In a cancellation scenario, I would, of course, take any connecting option they had available instead of waiting days for a seat on the direct flight.) So, it's less risky than smaller airports where the budget airlines may only have two or three flights per week.

That said, I think you have convinced me of what I originally thought. Will have to talk it over with my spouse, but will likely either go with another airline with one stop or just pay the extra $800.

 

[EACarlson]

I don't think it's because it's a red eye. The departure and return flights on Spirit are the same price. According to the website they only have one of each per day so that's the only option if we went with them.

The dramatic price difference is because I was only looking at non-stop flights. American, Spirit, and Frontier are the only three that offer non-stop flights from CLT to Vegas (at least for all the dates I have looked at). If we fly on Delta, the difference between them and Spirit is only around $100 but Delta would not be a direct flight.

We typically try to do direct flights whenever possible to minimize issues with delays and missed connections, but that's probably the better option if I want to save money. Usually, the direct flights are only minimally more expensive, but in this case they are more than double the price.


Yes. I would hope since they fly every day that we would get on a flight one or two days later, not have to wait over a week but I do understand that's a possibility (and that's why I normally never even look at the budget airlines).

No, you're booking and were looking for non-stop flights. Non-stop and direct do not mean the same thing. Non-stop is exactly that, direct means a single flight number. It's possible to have a direct flight that has multiple stops and even plane changes. SW does this frequently.

If you're only pricing non-stops out of a hub fortress like CLT, yes you're only going to have the hometown airline and the ULCCs. Booking Delta would have required a stop in either Atlanta, Detroit, Minneapolis or Salt Lake City. For a $100 rt difference I'd book the Delta with a connection over the non-stop on Spirit if it was anything I'd be upset to not make. What's the price delta between the Spirit flights and something on AA that goes through DFW or PHX?

 

[rwdavis2]

Spirit's CEO used to say, "We don't do customer service."

 

[Robbie Cottam]

That’s is the airline spirit

 

[NotUrsula]

Something else to note about Frontier, if that's your front-runner. Their seat surface is rather like a lawn chair, no padding. I'm fine with it for about 2 hours, but much longer than that and it gets a wee bit uncomfortable, so I need to carry something soft to sit on.

I only take them non-stop unless flying through Denver takes me closer to my destination. They've got some really insane routing that bounces you through there in boomerang-style with layovers that can last 12 hours or more.

 

[Robbie Cottam]

Something else to note about Frontier, if that's your front-runner. Their seat surface is rather like a lawn chair, no padding. I'm fine with it for about 2 hours, but much longer than that and it gets a wee bit uncomfortable, so I need to carry something soft to sit on.

I only take them non-stop unless flying through Denver takes me closer to my destination. They've got some really insane routing that bounces you through there in boomerang-style with layovers that can last 12 hours or more.

Thats part of how they keep cost down, no frills airplane parts…. In this case seats

 

[TippyThomas]

I bet the Kraft group doesn't have this problem.

 

[bcla]

Something else to note about Frontier, if that's your front-runner. Their seat surface is rather like a lawn chair, no padding. I'm fine with it for about 2 hours, but much longer than that and it gets a wee bit uncomfortable, so I need to carry something soft to sit on.

I only take them non-stop unless flying through Denver takes me closer to my destination. They've got some really insane routing that bounces you through there in boomerang-style with layovers that can last 12 hours or more.

A lot of airlines are going with those thin seats as a way to pack in more passengers without necessarily shrinking more legroom. Apparently Frontier's new seats are made for them by Recaro.

https://www.recaro-as.com/en/press/...ut-on-frontier-airlines-a320neo-aircraft.html

Southwest got custom seats that are thinner, but are wider with some interesting features like a pocket near the top so that it doesn't take up legroom. Not quite as thin as Frontier's though. I was supposed to travel on a 737MAX (which utilize these seats) last Christmas Day but missed that because of Southwest's meltdown.

 

[Robbie Cottam]

A lot of airlines are going with those thin seats as a way to pack in more passengers without necessarily shrinking more legroom. Apparently Frontier's new seats are made for them by Recaro.

https://www.recaro-as.com/en/press/...ut-on-frontier-airlines-a320neo-aircraft.html

Southwest got custom seats that are thinner, but are wider with some interesting features like a pocket near the top so that it doesn't take up legroom. Not quite as thin as Frontier's though. I was supposed to travel on a 737MAX (which utilize these seats) last Christmas Day but missed that because of Southwest's meltdown.

notice the cushion is like an inch thick..

not like this:
https://i.insider.com/628bab87b0a8be00186013ea?width=1300&format=jpeg&auto=webp
or this :

 

[RoseColored97]

I wouldn't do Frontier again. By the time you pay for your seat and luggage, the cost is the same as just flying United (preferred carrier). Then when it came out that they were giving commission to gate agents for charging passengers for "oversized" personal items that still fit under the seat in front of them ($80 fee at the gate), it just becomes too stressful.

Also - you can only do up to 40 pounds for checked luggage, not 50 which is standard across other carriers.

 

[bcla]

notice the cushion is like an inch thick..

not like this:
https://i.insider.com/628bab87b0a8be00186013ea?width=1300&format=jpeg&auto=webp
or this :
View attachment 797569

What Southwest is using in more planes is real padding with a real frame. The ones that Recaro is making for Frontier are more like a sling chair. I'm guessing they're also super light. That just one way they try to save money, even if the passenger might not like it.

 

[Robbie Cottam]

What Southwest is using in more planes is real padding with a real frame. The ones that Recaro is making for Frontier are more like a sling chair. I'm guessing they're also super light. That just one way they try to save money, even if the passenger might not like it.

As much as it hurts me to defend any budget airline, they are not cutting cost, it the seat structure….. the seat still have handle like 29Gs in a crash….

Where they save is the padding the foam the have to use is not something you can buy at Joann’s fabrics or hobby lobby….

By using 1 inch and not 4 you can save a lot of money over 180 seats.

 

[bcla]

As much as it hurts me to defend any budget airline, they are not cutting cost, it the seat structure….. the seat still have handle like 29Gs in a crash….

Where they save is the padding the foam the have to use is not something you can buy at Joann’s fabrics or hobby lobby….

By using 1 inch and not 4 you can save a lot of money over 180 seats.

They're probably not saving money on the seats, but they can pack more passengers and that's also less weight per seat.

In engineering there's an axiom with all sorts of variations, but it's basically "Strong. Light. Cheap. Pick two."

 

[Robbie Cottam]

They're probably not saving money on the seats, but they can pack more passengers and that's also less weight per seat.

In engineering there's an axiom with all sorts of variations, but it's basically "Strong. Light. Cheap. Pick two."

Yea, they don’t fit extra seats buy removing the foam…..

yes cattle car airlines and tight the seat pitch, but that has mostly already been done….

and if you save 2 lbs of foam a seat….. and I think that number maybe high you save less than 400 lbs per airplane….

that is negligible….

airliners uplift fuel by the ton…. 400 lbs is not going to make or break a flight…..
considering airlines use average weights for everything, if 400 lbs is a go / no go decision you have better stop…


may in an older regional airliner…. Such as the emb 130 /140, or the CRJ 200, no body uses those anymore

in aviation nothing is cheap….
you can pay me now, or pay me later but you are going to pay me ….

ultra low cost airlines make there money by not have spare planes, and spare pilots….

thats why they are wonderful, until something goes wrong, then we’ll that have no back up plan, they didn‘t pay for one