Bring back the death penalty

[Laurafoster]

I do agree that most of the problem is that prison can be such a cushy number nowdays. Take the Jamie Bulger Killers.

They murdered that poor innocent little boy - they ended up getting a better education for it, and then the government ensure they get a decent job, nice house etc. How is that a punishment?

 

[waltfan1957]

I do agree that most of the problem is that prison can be such a cushy number nowdays. Take the Jamie Bulger Killers.

They murdered that poor innocent little boy - they ended up getting a better education for it, and then the government ensure they get a decent job, nice house etc. How is that a punishment?

pity we cant find out where they live but this goverment protects them like some kind of superstars.

 

[carolfoy]

actually Waltfan 1957 - I have known the wereabouts of one of those children for years, he attended a special school where a friend of mine worked,by no means did he have an easy life, I can tell you (and I'm not saying he should have had one either!) Do you think what he did doesn't affect every little thing he does every day ? He is, and always will be in a personal hell hole of a prison, as he quite rightly deserves, of course, so what are you going to do? do you want his address so you can go round and lynch him? that makes you no better than him.

And he didn't get a better education - that particular school was, and is a VERY hard place, I'd be surprised if he came out of it alive.

 

[Obi Wan Kenobi]

I am sure Jamie Bulger would have like the chance to even attend that school. Even if it was hard, its still better than what these scum did to that little boy and they get to as they get towards 18 go out and enjoy themselves.
Don't forget also that their is a certain woman who is living within someones community safe in tyhe knowledge that she cannot be outed whilst the two girls she was involved in the deaths of will never have that chance as well.

The crust of civilised society is getting thinner every day. We have a growing underclass who with the current legal framework know they can do anything they like with impunity. The politicians will only start to take this problem seriously once it starts to effect their own areas where they actually live. Whilst its on the sink estates and inner cities, they will pay lip service to punishmant fitting the crime, preferring the human rights of the criminal over the human rights of the victims.

 

[Pootle]

I do agree that most of the problem is that prison can be such a cushy number nowdays. Take the Jamie Bulger Killers.

They murdered that poor innocent little boy - they ended up getting a better education for it, and then the government ensure they get a decent job, nice house etc. How is that a punishment?

Very different scenario. They were children themselves at the time of their horrendous crime and deserved to be treated as such.

 

[carolfoy]

I am sure Jamie Bulger would have like the chance to even attend that school. Even if it was hard, its still better than what these scum did to that little boy and they get to as they get towards 18 go out and enjoy themselves.
Don't forget also that their is a certain woman who is living within someones community safe in tyhe knowledge that she cannot be outed whilst the two girls she was involved in the deaths of will never have that chance as well.

The crust of civilised society is getting thinner every day. We have a growing underclass who with the current legal framework know they can do anything they like with impunity. The politicians will only start to take this problem seriously once it starts to effect their own areas where they actually live. Whilst its on the sink estates and inner cities, they will pay lip service to punishmant fitting the crime, preferring the human rights of the criminal over the human rights of the victims.

Whilst you and I do sing from the same hymn sheet Obi, our tunes are slightly different, I know how angry you are, believe me, I feel that anger too, I just know as well that they were kids too when they did that terrible crime. That little boys trusting face gazing up at those boys as they led him through the mal, is a vision that haunts me as a parent every day and chills me to the bone when my own son has done an, albeit temporary, disappearing act in public places.
Unfortunately our justice system is so far removed from everyday life - defence lawyers treat the guilty as a pawn in a game of Who-can-ge-their client-off-the-lightest. We will never have a system that lets a jury really know the ins and outs of a persons background in crime before they are sentanced. I'm never going to be a Hug the Hoodie type but I feel that some comments on this thread are really way out of order it is not our jobs to lynch criminals or to blame the scourge of society on unmarried mothers, it is our job to teach basic right from wrong but our kids, like it or not, will be their own people, the evil gene will surface if its there at all.
I guess some people just need a little bit more Disney in their lives (sorry, mad attempt to try and lighten how I feel)

 

[Obi Wan Kenobi]

Hi Carol,
I think we are in parts talking the same, politicians and iars, err lawyers are always shedding crocodile tears for the victims whilst if the mess they allowed to happen in the sink holes was at their home door, they would have a different view.

What those animals did to Little Jamie was not a childish game, they did some unspeakable acts to that little boy.

I do believe that there is an underclass and their view of teaching their kids wrong from right is do not get caught nicking, not do not steal.
There was an interesting comment from a person who works with these children on SKY News yesterday about the gang killings currently going on. He said that the parents of these children were taking crack cocaine in the 70's and 80's and its their way of life which has shaped their children.

This underclass who thinks its OK to take drugs, steal and kill is getting larger every cycle and unless society sorts them out and I do not mean by giving them Council houses, re-education classes, colour TV's etc.. but comes down hard on them, the New York Zero tolerance attitude, their will be no society in the future.

 

[carolfoy]

I do agree that drugs seem to be the crux of all the problems in our society these days, I suppose its the real argument towards legalising them.
Clients of mine own a wholesale brewing company, they supply brewing equipment all over the world, of course a lot of these products are industrial sized glass bottles etc. Unfortunately they inadvertently supplied pieces of equipment to one of the July 7th bombers and were investigated by the police. They informed the police of certain individuals who used their equipment for drug making reasons (and we're talking A LOT of citric acid, glass phials etc) and were told that 'we're not that interested in them, we're after the bombers' - fine, no problem, we all want the bombers strung up BUT the drug makers and suppliers are financing this anyway I'm confused by the whole thing, Who is supposed to be teaching right from wrong these days? If an alien lands from mars they'll read the papers and feel that the rape and murder of an innocent child is a far better crime to commit than being an MP who has taken a back hander, or heaven forbid, being a motorist that didn't pay a clamping/speeding/insurance fine.

 

[Obi Wan Kenobi]

No Carol, you are right. How can we expect nothing more from so called leaders of our society when they themselves take drugs? The chattering classes who think its OK to snort cocaine at their dinner parties as they can afford it, but look horrified when they hear of people being robbed on sink estates for the same damn drug?

What we need (tounge in cheek, but not really so) is a bit of Cromwellian politics today.

Is anyone else horrified at the UNICEF report yesterday about our children compared to the rest of the world??

Not one political party can show me a reason to vote for them. None of them are prepared to take the hard choices

 

[maggs]

I have had a family member murdered and I am totally and utterly against the death penalty. It is as gross and barbaric an act perpetrated by the state as the act perpetrated by the offender. It is all I have to say on this matter as it is so close to my heart and at least I can say I come at it from a position of personal experience in the same way as someone who has experienced the same and disagrees with me.

Maggs

 

[Obi Wan Kenobi]

So sorry for your loss Maggs.

This IS a topic which views mostly polarise one way or the other.
To the end of time it will always be so.

P{S intersting argument going on on Talksport radio at the moment on arming the Police

 

[carolfoy]

Maggs, My grandmother was killed and that is why I am probably not as vehement as others for pro-hanging, although anger and bitterness are emotions that can over take my sensible side. My Gran was killed by a gang of youths robbing her in her home for drug money. My feelings towards those scum have not altered my view that those convicted of actual pre conceived murder should be 'put down' like the evil dogs they are. The people responsible for my Grans death got off on an aggravated burglary charge, and whilst I agree that they didn't rob her with the intent of murdering her anyone who bursts into an old ladies house and threatens her with a knife, before pushing her around until she is literally frightened to death, does not do this act because they are decent and moral beings.
And Obi - I agree with you about the voting, I am a bit of an up-my-bum feminist and it breaks my heart that women fought and died so I can vote but I cannot do it hand on heart knowing that anyone I vote for is not worthy of those privileges

 

[higgy66]

When I was younger - if you did anything bad - you were smacked by your parents. Not for daft things but for major things.

If teachers told you off you were scared and even more so of detention as this needed your parents knowledge and it was so not cool among school peers.

If you did something really bad at school you were caned by the head with the parents signed approval.

I knew of one expulsion and this kid burnt the library down! There was no such thing as exclusion.

When you saw a police man you were nervous even though you'd done nothing wrong. If a policeman did stop you doing something mischievous and told you off you went home so scared your parents would find out that you blabbed as soon as you entered the house - and then got sent to bed!

I was smacked by my father once (for lying - never did it again!) and told off by a policeman once. We were only playing with a torch in the street but an elderely neighbour had got worried we were burglers. (in the 70's burglers used torches! )

There were child abductions but not on the scale of today. Obviously no drugs but alchohol was usually tried around the age of 16. However, this was in the pub with older friends - not in parks or bus stops etc.

We were children for much much longer. I still had a doll when I started high school and that Chirstmas was the first christmas I had doubts about Santa.


Now I've just turned 40 so most of the politicians know what I'm talking about. So........How did it all go so wrong? Why can't they see what it was like and how it is now and do something about it. A naughty child was punished not rewarded and made excuses for.

There are more divorces (again the lawyers gain here) and more unmarried mothers so there are more single parents and I do feel this must surely have an effect on our society. Its hard work on your own.
I myself have 2 children and they are 4 & 3 and explaining what is right and wrong and keeping them disciplined is a constant job.

If I was a single parent I can honestly say that after dressing, feeding, keeping them occupied and out of harms way, more feeding, dressing and keeping up with their pre school needs - I'd be too knackered to worry about discipline!

So they start playing out in the streets on a night - I could get some washing and ironing done. OK they've started swearing - I'm so tired and harrassed all the time - I would probably let the odd word out myself. They start drinking - I couldn't care less I'm drunk myself I'm so fed up with the kids and my life!

I know this is a little far fetched and I'm not saying all single parents are like this but you can see how it may have an effect.

We have to admit that parenting is the hardest job in the world and by talking away the authority that parents once had, along with the help they got from teachers and police we've left everyone to "get on with it" and we're now paying the consequences.

I bring my children up how I was brought up and this is probably the case for most. When my children start school - if I find out my child has been told off by the teacher - I won't be going in demanding that she "leaves my child alone" I'll be going in to a) to apologise and b) find out what we can do together to help make sure it doesn't happen again.

I AM NOT HAVING A DIG A SINGLE PARENTS - I'm having a dig at the government at how all the help and support we did have has been taken away. This government has been responsible for the death of that old fashioned concept called RESPECT! Get this concept from an early age and you carry it for life!

 

[wideeyes]

no, I don't see how it will have an effect,
people who are married make better parents and are more likely to disclpine there children?
I don't think that is the case, they are parents who are married that could easily be bad parents. They are parents who drink, take drugs, are violent in there homes who have children, or they maybe parents who simply take no interest in there children, don't care what they do, if they go to school or not as they are more bothered about themselves. It has nothing to do if they are married or not.
A single parent may have support from the child's other parent, while a married parent may be married to someone who is rarely around for there children.

you can't say that one example of a family unit is better for a child then a different situation, the family is to complex for that.

Also critising single parents on a thread about people who commit evil crimes such as killing children is a bit over the top,.

 

[carolfoy]

Well said Janet - as the scourge of society myself (yes, I'm a single parent and proud of it!) I will agree with everything you've said, although obviously not the single parent jibes, I know so many double parents who are totally crap! but the bits about respect, about fearing teachers/policemen and adults, and discipine.
My child is very well disciplined, I work full time and do not claim any benefits (other than the single persons discount on council tax!) and I get nothing from my childs father. I am NOT the exception. Many friends are like me, choosing to be single because they've already got one child to look after and refuse to clean up after an adult as well or simply fed up with being in abusive relationships.
FAMILY is the key to a well rounded society, whether you have a spouse/partner or no, knowing you have the support and love of family and friends helps a lot

 

[higgy66]

I AM NOT HAVING A DIG A SINGLE PARENTS

As I said I'm not having a dig or jibe at single parents as I know how hard it is. It is something I couldn't do myself and if i should be put in this position I know I would rely heavily on family and friends to help out.

My whole point is parenting is hard - period - and we should be getting the help our parents and grandparents had when 95% of families were two parents.

 

[jen_uk]

I agree that its not fair to blame single parents, my parents divorced and I was brought only by my mum and Ive turned out Ok! (I hope!)

Personally, I think we should have much tougher prison sentences, I think its crazy that you can kill someone and be given a sentence of 7 years and then be out in less than 4, what kind of message does that send?? I also believe that prisons should not have tv, ganes consoles etc as that it just too easy, but I do think think its right that they are offered an education, they need to be given a chance to learn new skills to try and lessen the chance of them reoffending when they are released.

 

[carolfoy]

My colleague is on the waiting list at Dartmoor Prison (to be a prison officer, I hasten to add, not an inmate ) She has had to undergo rigorous training and interviews before she was awarded the job, she now just has to wait for a position to come up. She has attended the prison several times to 'shadow' other POs and to familiarise herself with procedure. It is not an easy place, it is not a borstal, there are no PS2s in cells, or tvs there is a very small exercise yard where they are let out at certain times only, not to come and go as they please.
Now I don't say they are all like this, nor do I say 'oh poor them!' These are some of the countries most dangerous people, I don't think they deserve any less, in fact they deserve an awful lot more!, all I'm saying is that Karens recent experiences have opened my eyes, to a life that I thought (like everyone else) that it was easy.
How much easier to just 'put down' the ones that have murdered? and free up some space for those with 'lesser' crimes?

 

[wideeyes]

we should be getting the help our parents and grandparents had when 95% of families were two parents.

But these two parent families were not always perfect 30, 40 years ago, the thing that was different was that families were more private and kept there business behind closed doors, things were not discussed as they were taboo. If a women was being beaten by her husband she could not report it to the police as she would be the one in the wrong. Children still had parents who were alcoholics, etc. Teachers, police, etc often had no interest in what happened in the home, they was no help available.

The children who lived in these homes are adults today and are now responsible for raising children and I don't think anyone can say that every person over 30 is a well adjusted and mentally healthy person.

 

[carolfoy]

you are totally right - a local programme by Westcountry television recently followed the stories of people evacuated during the war, many of these people (now octogenarians plus!) said they were very badly treated, some sexually, many mentally abused during their time away during the war. Like you say, would anyone have listened when there were clearly bigger fish to fry?
(many also said they had a great time whilst evacuated so its always been a 50/50 situation)