Bill O'Reiley STILL banging the "liberals hate Christmas" drum...

Not trying to shove my beliefs on others. If you want to celebrate Saturanalia I know its misspelt, sorry, i am not good with ancient words. thats fine with me. but dont try and turn Christmas into Saturanalia, and we wont try and shove christmas down your throat.
 
Tigger_Magic said:
Don't seek to impose your beliefs on others and don't forbid others from practicing their beliefs (as long as those practices are legal).
This is the gist of it, and it's so simple, isn't it? Retailers or school principals who feel that saying "Merry Christmas", or including religious holiday songs in a concert might be imposing upon non-Christians are just trying to avoid doing so by saying "Happy Holidays" or by including only "winter" songs in a concert. They are not trying to "diminish and denigrate" Christmas. :rolleyes2: They are doing nothing to prevent Christians from celebrating Christmas. In all but the rare, freak instances, this is all that's happening. I just don't get what the big deal is, why some people are so offended when someone else chooses to be inclusive by using the word "holiday".
 
DarkSideMoon said:
Not trying to shove my beliefs on others. If you want to celebrate Saturanalia I know its misspelt, sorry, i am not good with ancient words. thats fine with me. but dont try and turn Christmas into Saturanalia, and we wont try and shove christmas down your throat.

The cheeky point the "Holiday Letter" is trying to make is that Christians, for all intents and purposes, turned Pagan holidays into Christian ones by adopting their dates and festivities. No one is trying to turn Christmas back into a Yule celebration...just pointing out that the "Christmas" most people know and love would not have existed were it not for the pre-existing Pagan traditions usurped by Christian missionaries.
 
http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=16-10-012-v


Calculating Christmas
William J. Tighe on the Story Behind December 25

Many Christians think that Christians celebrate Christ’s birth on December 25th because the church fathers appropriated the date of a pagan festival. Almost no one minds, except for a few groups on the fringes of American Evangelicalism, who seem to think that this makes Christmas itself a pagan festival. But it is perhaps interesting to know that the choice of December 25th is the result of attempts among the earliest Christians to figure out the date of Jesus’ birth based on calendrical calculations that had nothing to do with pagan festivals.

Rather, the pagan festival of the “Birth of the Unconquered Son” instituted by the Roman Emperor Aurelian on 25 December 274, was almost certainly an attempt to create a pagan alternative to a date that was already of some significance to Roman Christians. Thus the “pagan origins of Christmas” is a myth without historical substance.

A Mistake

The idea that the date was taken from the pagans goes back to two scholars from the late seventeenth and early eighteenth centuries. Paul Ernst Jablonski, a German Protestant, wished to show that the celebration of Christ’s birth on December 25th was one of the many “paganizations” of Christianity that the Church of the fourth century embraced, as one of many “degenerations” that transformed pure apostolic Christianity into Catholicism. Dom Jean Hardouin, a Benedictine monk, tried to show that the Catholic Church adopted pagan festivals for Christian purposes without paganizing the gospel.

In the Julian calendar, created in 45 B.C. under Julius Caesar, the winter solstice fell on December 25th, and it therefore seemed obvious to Jablonski and Hardouin that the day must have had a pagan significance before it had a Christian one. But in fact, the date had no religious significance in the Roman pagan festal calendar before Aurelian’s time, nor did the cult of the sun play a prominent role in Rome before him.

There were two temples of the sun in Rome, one of which (maintained by the clan into which Aurelian was born or adopted) celebrated its dedication festival on August 9th, the other of which celebrated its dedication festival on August 28th. But both of these cults fell into neglect in the second century, when eastern cults of the sun, such as Mithraism, began to win a following in Rome. And in any case, none of these cults, old or new, had festivals associated with solstices or equinoxes.

As things actually happened, Aurelian, who ruled from 270 until his assassination in 275, was hostile to Christianity and appears to have promoted the establishment of the festival of the “Birth of the Unconquered Sun” as a device to unify the various pagan cults of the Roman Empire around a commemoration of the annual “rebirth” of the sun. He led an empire that appeared to be collapsing in the face of internal unrest, rebellions in the provinces, economic decay, and repeated attacks from German tribes to the north and the Persian Empire to the east.

In creating the new feast, he intended the beginning of the lengthening of the daylight, and the arresting of the lengthening of darkness, on December 25th to be a symbol of the hoped-for “rebirth,” or perpetual rejuvenation, of the Roman Empire, resulting from the maintenance of the worship of the gods whose tutelage (the Romans thought) had brought Rome to greatness and world-rule. If it co-opted the Christian celebration, so much the better.

A By-Product

It is true that the first evidence of Christians celebrating December 25th as the date of the Lord’s nativity comes from Rome some years after Aurelian, in A.D. 336, but there is evidence from both the Greek East and the Latin West that Christians attempted to figure out the date of Christ’s birth long before they began to celebrate it liturgically, even in the second and third centuries. The evidence indicates, in fact, that the attribution of the date of December 25th was a by-product of attempts to determine when to celebrate his death and resurrection.

How did this happen? There is a seeming contradiction between the date of the Lord’s death as given in the synoptic Gospels and in John’s Gospel. The synoptics would appear to place it on Passover Day (after the Lord had celebrated the Passover Meal on the preceding evening), and John on the Eve of Passover, just when the Passover lambs were being slaughtered in the Jerusalem Temple for the feast that was to ensue after sunset on that day.

Solving this problem involves answering the question of whether the Lord’s Last Supper was a Passover Meal, or a meal celebrated a day earlier, which we cannot enter into here. Suffice it to say that the early Church followed John rather than the synoptics, and thus believed that Christ’s death would have taken place on 14 Nisan, according to the Jewish lunar calendar. (Modern scholars agree, by the way, that the death of Christ could have taken place only in A.D. 30 or 33, as those two are the only years of that time when the eve of Passover could have fallen on a Friday, the possibilities being either 7 April 30 or 3 April 33.)

However, as the early Church was forcibly separated from Judaism, it entered into a world with different calendars, and had to devise its own time to celebrate the Lord’s Passion, not least so as to be independent of the rabbinic calculations of the date of Passover. Also, since the Jewish calendar was a lunar calendar consisting of twelve months of thirty days each, every few years a thirteenth month had to be added by a decree of the Sanhedrin to keep the calendar in synchronization with the equinoxes and solstices, as well as to prevent the seasons from “straying” into inappropriate months.

Apart from the difficulty Christians would have had in following—or perhaps even being accurately informed about—the dating of Passover in any given year, to follow a lunar calendar of their own devising would have set them at odds with both Jews and pagans, and very likely embroiled them in endless disputes among themselves. (The second century saw severe disputes about whether Pascha had always to fall on a Sunday or on whatever weekday followed two days after 14 Artemision/Nisan, but to have followed a lunar calendar would have made such problems much worse.)

These difficulties played out in different ways among the Greek Christians in the eastern part of the empire and the Latin Christians in the western part of it. Greek Christians seem to have wanted to find a date equivalent to 14 Nisan in their own solar calendar, and since Nisan was the month in which the spring equinox occurred, they chose the 14th day of Artemision, the month in which the spring equinox invariably fell in their own calendar. Around A.D. 300, the Greek calendar was superseded by the Roman calendar, and since the dates of the beginnings and endings of the months in these two systems did not coincide, 14 Artemision became April 6th.

In contrast, second-century Latin Christians in Rome and North Africa appear to have desired to establish the historical date on which the Lord Jesus died. By the time of Tertullian they had concluded that he died on Friday, 25 March 29. (As an aside, I will note that this is impossible: 25 March 29 was not a Friday, and Passover Eve in A.D. 29 did not fall on a Friday and was not on March 25th, or in March at all.)

Integral Age

So in the East we have April 6th, in the West, March 25th. At this point, we have to introduce a belief that seems to have been widespread in Judaism at the time of Christ, but which, as it is nowhere taught in the Bible, has completely fallen from the awareness of Christians. The idea is that of the “integral age” of the great Jewish prophets: the idea that the prophets of Israel died on the same dates as their birth or conception.

This notion is a key factor in understanding how some early Christians came to believe that December 25th is the date of Christ’s birth. The early Christians applied this idea to Jesus, so that March 25th and April 6th were not only the supposed dates of Christ’s death, but of his conception or birth as well. There is some fleeting evidence that at least some first- and second-century Christians thought of March 25th or April 6th as the date of Christ’s birth, but rather quickly the assignment of March 25th as the date of Christ’s conception prevailed.

It is to this day, commemorated almost universally among Christians as the Feast of the Annunciation, when the Archangel Gabriel brought the good tidings of a savior to the Virgin Mary, upon whose acquiescence the Eternal Word of God (“Light of Light, True God of True God, begotten of the Father before all ages”) forthwith became incarnate in her womb. What is the length of pregnancy? Nine months. Add nine months to March 25th and you get December 25th; add it to April 6th and you get January 6th. December 25th is Christmas, and January 6th is Epiphany.

Christmas (December 25th) is a feast of Western Christian origin. In Constantinople it appears to have been introduced in 379 or 380. From a sermon of St. John Chrysostom, at the time a renowned ascetic and preacher in his native Antioch, it appears that the feast was first celebrated there on 25 December 386. From these centers it spread throughout the Christian East, being adopted in Alexandria around 432 and in Jerusalem a century or more later. The Armenians, alone among ancient Christian churches, have never adopted it, and to this day celebrate Christ’s birth, manifestation to the magi, and baptism on January 6th.

Western churches, in turn, gradually adopted the January 6th Epiphany feast from the East, Rome doing so sometime between 366 and 394. But in the West, the feast was generally presented as the commemoration of the visit of the magi to the infant Christ, and as such, it was an important feast, but not one of the most important ones—a striking contrast to its position in the East, where it remains the second most important festival of the church year, second only to Pascha (Easter).

In the East, Epiphany far outstrips Christmas. The reason is that the feast celebrates Christ’s baptism in the Jordan and the occasion on which the Voice of the Father and the Descent of the Spirit both manifested for the first time to mortal men the divinity of the Incarnate Christ and the Trinity of the Persons in the One Godhead.

A Christian Feast

Thus, December 25th as the date of the Christ’s birth appears to owe nothing whatsoever to pagan influences upon the practice of the Church during or after Constantine’s time. It is wholly unlikely to have been the actual date of Christ’s birth, but it arose entirely from the efforts of early Latin Christians to determine the historical date of Christ’s death.

And the pagan feast which the Emperor Aurelian instituted on that date in the year 274 was not only an effort to use the winter solstice to make a political statement, but also almost certainly an attempt to give a pagan significance to a date already of importance to Roman Christians. The Christians, in turn, could at a later date re-appropriate the pagan “Birth of the Unconquered Sun” to refer, on the occasion of the birth of Christ, to the rising of the “Sun of Salvation” or the “Sun of Justice.”

The author refers interested readers to Thomas J. Talley’s The Origins of the Liturgical Year (The Liturgical Press). A draft of this article appeared on the listserve Virtuosity.

William J. Tighe is Associate Professor of History at Muhlenberg College in Allentown, Pennsylvania, and a faculty advisor to the Catholic Campus Ministry. He is a Member of St. Josaphat Ukrainian Catholic Church in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. He is a contributing editor for Touchstone.
 

Bob Slydell said:
I could care less what Bill's mission is, but at least be accurate about the mission.

Psssst.....his mission is to to become the news - because no publicity is bad publicity --- so he can sell "No Spin Zone" toilet seats (or what ever it is that he sells :flower: )
 
2funny, your internet search skills never fail to amaze me. The truth is that evidence exists that places pagan "rebirth" celebrations far before the advent of Christianity in any form. The Babylonians, for instance, who worshiped the sun god, Isis, annually on December 25.

The day was later used by the Romans who designated December 25 as the day of their celebration not only of Saturn the deity of agriculture, but also the birthday of Mithras the sun god. Also, the Nordic and Celtic people of northern Europe celebrated Yule, also in honor of their sun god Mithras.

During Jesus’ time worship of Mithras continued to be popular in Rome. After Jesus’ death, Christianity began to replace pagan religions. However, many Pagan converts to Christianity refused to discontinue their pagan practices. Many of these Christians worshipped Mithras on Sunday (named after the sun god, incidentally), and attended the annual feast. In order to remove this problem Church leaders decided to Christianize pagan customs, in order to attract pagans and allow converts to observe their old traditions in a godly fashion.

In 321, the Roman Emperor Constantine gave Christianity freedom in Rome. (I could go into how Catholics preserved Christianity against overwhelming Roman Pagan forces, but I'll leave that for another thread) Later in 336CE (Common era) Christians unofficially replaced the pagan Roman holiday with a celebration honoring Christ’s birth. Pope Julius, who designated December 25 as the official celebration of Christ’s birth, followed this up in 350CE. This holiday became known as Christmas or the Mass of Christ.

The Greek Orthodox Church and Russian Orthodox Church initially refused to recognize Christmas as a Christian holiday because of its pagan origin. Instead they celebrated the Epiphany also known as Three Kings Day, which honored the visitation of the magi to Jesus.
 
As utterly stupid as Bill O'Reilly is, I will chime in and opine that what the Roman's (or anybody else) originally did that became Christmas is completely irrelevant to the modern celebration of Christmas and attempts to make it relevant really don't make any sense.
 
Galahad said:
As utterly stupid as Bill O'Reilly is, I will chime in and opine that what the Roman's (or anybody else) originally did that became Christmas is completely irrelevant to the modern celebration of Christmas and attempts to make it relevant really don't make any sense.
I fail to see how it doesn't make any sense or is irrelevant: We are talking about a Man who believes in the superiority of Christmas over other Winter holidays--pointing out the fact that the Modern Christmas Celebration (with is trees, and wreaths and December 25 date) owes itself to some of those "other" holidays seems to be completely reasonable...
 
I just don't get it. When I say "Happy Holidays" - I mean Christmas and NY. I may mean Thanksgiving as well if a say it to someone right before Thanksgiving (especially if I do not expect to see them before the following year).

The fact that someone is twisting that to mean I am anti-Christian is wierd.

As for "Happy Holidays" in stores ....I think they mean - "we respect your religious preference, but we are more concerned about selling you our crap"
 
I really wish I knew where to buy the "Keep Mithras in Christmas" bumper stickers.

I just don't understand the horror some people react with when you wish them a happy holidays? When I wish you a happy holiday I mean Chanufestikwanzamas and New Years. (and no I'm not taking the Christ out of anything by the 'mas being at the end of my greeting)
Being the typical type A northerner I don't have the time or the inclination to say "Merry Christmas Happy New Year" when Happy Holidays will suffice because it's apropos- there are several holidays that occur between Thanksgiving and New Year and religion (or lack of) has nothing to do with my greeting.
 
Bill "Loofah Lothario" O'Reilly had to find something else to bang after he got sued by his assistant for sexual harrassment.
 
yeartolate said:
I just don't get it. When I say "Happy Holidays" - I mean Christmas and NY. I may mean Thanksgiving as well if a say it to someone right before Thanksgiving (especially if I do not expect to see them before the following year).

The fact that someone is twisting that to mean I am anti-Christian is wierd.

As for "Happy Holidays" in stores ....I think they mean - "we respect your religious preference, but we are more concerned about selling you our crap"

Yes, and you would think people who support capitalism would have no problem with that.
 
I'm just happy when a salesperson says anything besides, "Here's your receipt."

Thank-you everyone for your Happy Holidays and Merry Christmases. They are all appreciated.
 
Isn't Mr. Riley entitled to express his opinion? Does the 1st amendment of our Constitution still guarantee free speech or did someone change it without the rest of us finding out.

When I don't agree with the media's constant barrage on any given subject I simply turn the channel. It's real easy to do and it takes no effort.

I suspect the almost all of us will be surprised when they find out what God actually thinks.
 
yeartolate said:
As for "Happy Holidays" in stores ....I think they mean - "we respect your religious preference, but we are more concerned about selling you our crap"

I believe that is absolutely correct. They couldn't care less about your religious views. They worship the almighty dollar.

However I do think it's ironic that Christmas is the main reason we're buying all their crap this time of year.

Anyway Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to everyone.
 
bcvillastwo said:
Isn't Mr. Riley entitled to express his opinion? Does the 1st amendment of our Constitution still guarantee free speech or did someone change it without the rest of us finding out.

When I don't agree with the media's constant barrage on any given subject I simply turn the channel. It's real easy to do and it takes no effort.

I suspect the almost all of us will be surprised when they find out what God actually thinks.

the problem is people listen to his opinion and believe it. :)

~Amanda
 
And the previous poster is now deputized to make sure that others don't hear something that might sway their opinions.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm

What happened to people being able to hear other's ideas and then accept or reject them on the relative merits of the idea's that are expressed.

Frankly I think most of us are perfectly capable of making up our own minds.
 


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