Barking Dog Question - **Dog Trainer EVAL Update p.2**

[Wonders10]

Hi everyone,

I have a 2 year old goldendoodle. He has his naughty side, like counter surfing or stealing the bathmat from the bathroom, but barking isn't one I would say is his biggest problem because he doesn't just bark for the heck of it (thinking of my mom's dog here for that). Anyway, he is also very protective of me, yet appears terrified of everything/everyone. I live in an apartment, on the first floor, facing the parking lot. I also live in Florida so when the weather is cooler out, I like to keep my sliding glass doors and windows open to let the fresh air in. My patio is completely screened in. Well Winston will bark at people in my building, if he is out there, as they walk by the patio. Partly, protecting me and partly because I think he is scared/unsure of them. That is my opinion anyway. Well shortly before Christmas, he barked at an upstairs neighbor and I went out to bring him back in so he would stop. The neighbor went crazy on me. I have no problem with telling me to keep my dog from barking, it's bothering you etc. However he dropped the F-bomb every other word, practically verbally abusing me for a solid 10 minutes. That I had a problem with. But I got it - the barking was bugging him. So....I was uber-conscious of situations where he may bark, I corrected him immediately if he let out one bark, etc. And he has been awesome. I haven't seen said neighbor since the incident, but I'm hoping he is realizing that my dog has been a lot more quiet - and also realizes the other barking dogs in the neighborhood are not him

Well just now, I took him for a potty break and saw a lady he has seen many times. She is an older lady and loves my dog. She was heading out with another lady who I have never met but was very eager to say hello to Winston. Initially Winston was very skittish, even towards the woman he sort of knows and on other occasions, will stay still for 10-15 minutes while we talk and she scratches him. Then he started to bark at the other lady and I think he was scared because he kept cowering back, leaning forward. I apologized, they left, he did his thing and trotted right back in like nothing happened. But I'm concerned about neighber hearing and I also don't like that he is so terrified of everything and gives this demeanor like he wants to rip your neck out. I'm attributing this behavior to the fact that it is dark out and people look scarier in the dark? I don't know...either way, I'm not okay with it and its embarassing.

He has done a beginner obedience and has the basic commands down. He will come inside when I call his name. But my issue is this fear he has/protectiveness he has over me. I don't want it to get worse. Obviously, these are questions for a professional dog trainer and at some point I think I will have to go that route, but wanted to put out feelers here and see what my DIS-friends might have to say about it.

ETA: I also wanted to share that I take him to daycare 2-3 times a week where he plays with lots of other dogs, and sees lots of humans, plus goes out with me to pet stores, art festivals and parks where he is a completely different dog. Kind, gentle, quiet. And, I wanted to point out that he is an angel at the Vet and at the groomers, but I have been told he demonstrates that protective behavior with the groomer as well - barking a lot at a mail man who walked in, but not anyone else that works there.

 

[minkydog]

Sounds like you need to have him evaluated by an animal behaviorist. I would be concerned that your dog becomes so anxious that he might bite someone in his misguided attempt to "protect" you. Fact is, you don't need that kind of protection, but he doesn't seem to know that. If you're already having trouble the neighbor, I'd suggest you hop right on this. Next thing you know, you're going to have the police at your door on a noise complaint.

 

[Wonders10]

Sounds like you need to have him evaluated by an animal behaviorist. I would be concerned that your dog becomes so anxious that he might bite someone in his misguided attempt to "protect" you. Fact is, you don't need that kind of protection, but he doesn't seem to know that. If you're already having trouble the neighbor, I'd suggest you hop right on this. Next thing you know, you're going to have the police at your door on a noise complaint.

Thanks for your reply...biting is my ultimate fear as well. I know people always say my dog "never bites", and I haven't had him anywhere close to that point yet, but it is my fear if this behavior gets worse.

It has been 3-4 weeks since the neighbor berated me. I did initially tell our apartment manager since he threatened to have me kicked out (which they can't do just yet), and I completely owned up to his barking and said I will be working on it and she was a lot more concerned with how he spoke to me about it - so much so that she sent a special flyer to everyone in out building, asking us to be nice and use kind words, not obscenities when reminding our neighbors of the rules. But honestly, I would love nothing more than to prance right by him with my dog being better than a best in show dog.

 

[Agri]

Sounds like you need to have him evaluated by an animal behaviorist. I would be concerned that your dog becomes so anxious that he might bite someone in his misguided attempt to "protect" you. Fact is, you don't need that kind of protection, but he doesn't seem to know that. If you're already having trouble the neighbor, I'd suggest you hop right on this. Next thing you know, you're going to have the police at your door on a noise complaint.

This.

My mom's dog is very protective of her and its become a zillion times worse since she's become sick. He wants to bark at every other noise and lunge at strangers. We've stopped answering the door completely unless we know who it is and he is put away - either outside or closed up in my mom's bedroom. He has nipped people and put his teeth on them as a warning - both were total surprises to us. One time, someone working on the house just walked into my mom's bedroom - knowing she was in there with the dog!! - without permission. The other time our current lawnboy sat down and he put his mouth around his ankle as a warning - no pressure - and was easy to remove from the situation.

I was not around much the first year she had him and she has always treated him like a spoiled child, which is a big part of the problem. My mom has been emotionally needy since the divorce and the dog is sort of her emotional crutch, which of course, has gotten worse since her surgery/illness. They like him where we board him, but I do not trust him. His problems started out small and have snowballed into what they are now.

 

[Wonders10]

This.

My mom's dog is very protective of her and its become a zillion times worse since she's become sick. He wants to bark at every other noise and lunge at strangers. We've stopped answering the door completely unless we know who it is and he is put away - either outside or closed up in my mom's bedroom. He has nipped people and put his teeth on them as a warning - both were total surprises to us. One time, someone working on the house just walked into my mom's bedroom - knowing she was in there with the dog!! - without permission. The other time our current lawnboy sat down and he put his mouth around his ankle as a warning - no pressure - and was easy to remove from the situation.

I was not around much the first year she had him and she has always treated him like a spoiled child, which is a big part of the problem. My mom has been emotionally needy since the divorce and the dog is sort of her emotional crutch, which of course, has gotten worse since her surgery/illness. They like him where we board him, but I do not trust him. His problems started out small and have snowballed into what they are now.

I'm sure I'm part of the problem, because I do give him a lot of attention and rubs, but not toys or food. He had an incredibly sensitive stomach the first year or so of his life (I'm not 100% convinced it's fine now but it is better) so he does not get any treats...the only thing he eats is his food at breakfast and dinner. And he can't have most toys because he will literally eat them and I don't need anything making him sick so they only "toys" he has are a couple kongs that he doesn't play with and nylabones that he loves. I know I give him a lot of love and attention but I don't give him stuff so I guess I feel like I'm not totally spoiling him? Or I'm just in denial.

My problem with dog obedience classes are I don't want to walk in a circle and practice sitting every 5 minutes because that is what I've experienced in the past. Along those lines, Winston is an angel in public. I actually did private classes for our beginner course because he was so bad and the trainer was shocked our well he did and how calm he was - not perfect, but definitely not so severe he needed private lessons. What I need is a professional to come to my apartment and walk him around outside and face the people he sees every day and tell me how to deal with that, but I don't know any company like that around here - but trust, I will be looking into it.

 

[AlohaPolynesian]

When I moved into my apartment building I was the first person to live on my floor because it is a new property. My dog got used to it being just us for the first few months, and now she barks whenever she hears the neighbors.

I have had tremendous success with using a spray bottle filled with water. I keep it on the setting where it is a single stream of water and spray my dog whenever she barks. It got to the point where I didn't even have to spray her and she was quiet when I held the bottle up. Now she stops barking as soon as she sees me going to get the bottle!

Maybe try the spray bottle method before you spend the big bucks for a professional trainer. (Especially since I learned the spray bottle trick from a pro!)

 

[Wonders10]

When I moved into my apartment building I was the first person to live on my floor because it is a new property. My dog got used to it being just us for the first few months, and now she barks whenever she hears the neighbors.

I have had tremendous success with using a spray bottle filled with water. I keep it on the setting where it is a single stream of water and spray my dog whenever she barks. It got to the point where I didn't even have to spray her and she was quiet when I held the bottle up. Now she stops barking as soon as she sees me going to get the bottle!

Maybe try the spray bottle method before you spend the big bucks for a professional trainer. (Especially since I learned the spray bottle trick from a pro!)

So funny you mentioned the spray bottle...over the holidays, we were down at my mom's house and he was having a little fit, so I stuck my fingers in my ice water and spritzed him in the face and he stopped and laid down! It was amazing. That could definitely work for him inside, but I'm not sure what to do if we see someone while we are outside that freaks him out and gets him barking. He gets himself so worked up, I don't think a water bottle would work in those situations.

 

[AlohaPolynesian]

The trainer I learned this from had made his own belt to carry a spray bottle and treats at all times!!!! LOL! But then again, he is a trainer. I don't take mine with me outside, but if my dog doesn't bark in a situation she normally would, I make sure to gush over her and give her treats so eventually she'll learn that being quiet = love and treats!

 

[Wonders10]

Something I've noticed about him is how he can really pick up on my feelings. Like this evening, I didn't yell at him at all, I just huffed inside and mumbled under my breath, half to him, half to myself, the things I was thinking about how frustrated I was and how I don't want the neighbor to get mad at us again. I think he knew I was upset and it was his fault and he just went and laid down. I've noticed that a few times with his behavior.

I wonder, then, if I give off an anxious, nervous vibe when we meet people outside that he is picking up on and that is why he barks at those people

I use a gentle leader when we go for walks, or on public outings and it really mellows him out so I'm thinking I might start using it even for our quick potty breaks, and see if he is calmer. Can't hurt, right?

 

[BKMETV]

I have a four year old Golden who barks at everyone...but in my case it's because he excited to see them. No one can come near the house without him barking his head off...I've tried a lot of different things but just before Christmas finally found something that works. It's the same principle as the water bottle but is compressed air instead... the can makes a hissing noise which is apparently the same as geese make to scare animals off. It's small enough to fit in a pocket or purse and there's no leaking water.

 

[simba928]

This is interesting. I work at a shelter and have noticed that slot of these "doodle" mixes have similar issues (not all, but I have seen quite a few acting the way you described). The biggest thing I want to tell you is not to let the anyone near Winston when he's acting like that. If he starts barking, cowering, and backing away from someone, that is a clear signal that he does not want them to come closer. If you allow them to come closer to him, you are asking for a bite. It will be a pain in the neck to always keep one eye on him and one eye on people but if you don't, something will happen. You may have to turn around and walk the opposite direction or take a longer route than normal but you need to make sure strangers remain at a distance from him.

You may want to look into hiring a behaviorist for him. It is a bit expensive but they will be able to come to his territory and see his problem. Especially since you said he is pretty good away from home. Just make sure it is a behaviorist and not a trainer. Your vet should be able to recommend a good one in your area.

If you don't want to/can't do the behaviorist, or even in the mean time until you find one, yoh can teach him the quiet command. My dog used to bark at everything until I put barking and being quiet to a command and now she's much better. Stilll barks at people outside sometimes but much less often and when I tell her Quiet, she stops.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I hope you can appreciate my honest opinion and not think I'm picking on you.

You are not in control of your dog. Your dog has learned bad behaviors by being left to bark out on the porch with seemingly little direction from you, at least initially (maybe it's gotten better lately).

I liken this to "fence running". If you're not sure what it is, google it. It's when dogs are allowed to run and growl along a fence (not saying your dog growled here) repeatedly so it becomes a really bad habit that helps form aggression. Dogs take it up when they have no other outlet for their energy.

Here's what should have happened. Dog goes out on porch and is allowed to stay out if behavior is good. First time dog barks, you say, "That's enough" in a leadership tone, looking at the dog so the dog stops. This way the dog learns what is right and what is wrong. You are the leader, and the dog will follow your command. (Ideally this happens from Day 1.) Under no circumstances is he allowed to misbehave out there. You need to be a good neighbor if you're going to get along with people and the dog's going to continue to be welcomed there.

If the dog is left alone during the day to do this, even on the inside, it will be a very hard problem to cure.

Another sense that I'm getting from you is that you make a lot of excuses, or reasons if you will, why your dog is doing things. You may or may not be right. Be very careful that you are not encouraging/reinforcing these behaviors unwittingly by praising, talking baby talk or petting, coddling him etc, when he does this. For now, don't place him in situations in which you know he's going to cower or be afraid as you do NOT want a bite to occur. You need to work on getting him to become a normal dog again with normal expectations of good behavior from you. Get him out walking. Play fetch with him. Let him get good and tired. Keep a high expectation of what his behavior should be like and work at putting the time and effort into getting him there. It can work! In situations, he will look to you for leadership. You can't be wishy washy about what you want from him. You need to be firm.

You sort of made fun of the group class, but I am a strong believer in group classes. Dogs learn how to behave around distractions and owners learn how to act around their dogs' distractions, and you have a trainer right there to give you instant feedback.

If you don't have it already, pick up a copy of Good Owners, Great Dogs by Brian Kilcommons and Sara Wilson.

Good luck, and please don't take offense! I'm just trying to help you understand what may have happened and how you can fix it.

 

[yoopermom]

Ditto to everything Pea-n-me says (and I usually agree with her).

You know how when you watch the Dog Whisperer the terribly behaved dog will be perfect for Cesaer in a matter of minutes? I'm not saying it's "you", I'm just saying that the dog is sensitive to you, picking up your littlest actions/ emotions, and if you bring in an animal behaviorist, s/he will be able to identify what you can do to help the both of you.

No matter what you choose to do, please don't do nothing and hope it will get better. Read my current thread about the biter, and all the emotions that it's brought up, and you'll know you never want to get in that situation.

Good luck!
Terri

 

[Wonders10]

Thanks everyone who replied after my last post. I'm not taking anything personally - I've learned in my years on the DIS, that people will say things I like or don't like and if I don't want to hear, then I shouldn't have posted my question in the first place.

I guess it does sound like I am making excuses. I think deep down I'm just trying to figure out why he is acting like this because he hasn't always been like this. Yeah, he is only 2 but its like the past couple months have gotten a little out of control with the fear/protective/agressive behavior that I initially described. But I guess if I really look back, its been there all along and is just progressively getting worse and more noticeable.

I'm not opposed to group classes for dog training. Not in the least. Even though the majority of the class was walking in a circle - I wasn't making fun, just telling the truth! I took my mom's dog to 2 training courses and my dog has been to one group class and one private class (but not in the home). They were great for basic obedience. Learning how to walk, sit, etc. But all the annoying issues Winston had at home, he never did in obedience class. Mainly because the things that truly stress him out seem to be things near his "home". That's why I'm hoping I can find someone that can come to me, instead of me going to them. I want them to physically see what he is doing because I guarantee he won't do it at any of the training sites I've been to.

I most definitely avoid putting him in situations where he may see people that would cause him to have those behaviors. It's stressful on me as well...I look out my window to see if anyone is outside and I pray he does his business fast and that no one walks by while we are out there. I don't want to do that for the next 10 years But, like this evening, this woman came walking over to me because she just thinks he is adorable and she wanted to say hi to him. In the past he has had no problems saying hello to her and being near her, but tonight he did, for whatever reason. But (and I'm serious) how do I tell people that run across a parking lot to come see my dog that they can't come any closer if I notice he is getting upset? And around here, my dog is sort of unusual - especially when he is fluffy. He looks like a polar bear and he's adorable, so I think I have a tendency to gather more attention when I'm in public because of that. I don't want him to be upset and do something bad, but I also don't want to inadvertently tell everyone in my complex that my dog might bite them either. Typically when he cowers a bit, I just say that he gets scared easily and they will usually be a little more gentle in their approach 9/10 times it works or else I can just tell he is mad and we will walk away. Tonight was the first time he actually barked at someone right in front of them - its usually from a distance or from my patio (which hasn't happened because he hasn't been allowed out there since the neighbor incident). Which stinks for me because I can't open my sliding glass doors but a quiet dog = happy neighbors.

Oh and someone mentioned his behavior/barking during the day...he is crated any time I am not home. In all past experience, he sleeps until I get him out so unless there was some really inexplainable sound or someone walked into my bedroom, he is quiet during the day. Heck he's quiet 90% of the time. Barking in general isn't the problem. Its the why he is barking and who he is barking at that is my worry.

Sorry for being long-winded. It's late and I'm off to bed so I tend to ramble.

 

[simba928]

But (and I'm serious) how do I tell people that run across a parking lot to come see my dog that they can't come any closer if I notice he is getting upset?

Very simply: "Sorry, Winston's in a bit of a goofy mood today so we're just going to let him have some space! Have a good day!"
Your first priority is to protect him and make sure everyone around him is safe from him. Most people, if you say it with a smile, will be fine with it and say hi to him from a distance. I do it at work all the time. If I'm walking a dog that is scared or being kind of weird and someone comes up to us I just smile and say "Spot is being a little goofy today so please let him have some space." It is your job to be his advocate. Nobody else can read him as well as you can so you need to tell them.

9 times out of 10, people want to help so if you are comfortable with it, you can even tell people that he is in training so could they please approach him slowly/bend down to greet him/let him approach them/whatever makes both you and him comfortable.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Your posts are long (like mine ) and my time is limited this morning so I'm going to have to speak generally rather than try to address each thing you've written.

It's a cliche, but there's a lot of truth to it. Dogs and Mailmen. Why don't dogs like mailmen? How did that start? I think if you take a good look at that, you might have a little more insight into what's happening with your dog.

Mailman comes to house. Dog barks. Mailman goes away. Every. Day. Over. And Over. In dog's mind, he's succeeded in getting mailman to leave. UNLESS he is taught otherwise. From you.

In the case of the porch: dog left out there sometimes alone. People walk by. Dog barks. People leave. What is your dog thinking? How, over time, do you think that impacts his thoughts about strangers, especially people in "his" parking lot?

Dog needs direction from you while out on the porch. Every single time. Do not leave him out there alone until and unless he's reliable. Over time, once he learns from you how to behave out there, you can begin to leave *a little* but be right nearby to correct if need be, etc. Never leave him alone to get back to bad habits or you'll be back to square one again. Now, if you had been doing this from the time the dog first went out there, it would probably be easier. But now you're reteaching/relearning and that is usually harder. (Not to pick on you. We all make these types of mistakes with our dogs - though they're usually hard to see when we're "living them". I'm pointing it out to demonstrate.)

But this is only one piece of how to solve this problem. The other is finding a more acceptable outlet for his energy. As a young, robust dog bred from two solid working breeds, both of which raank among the smartest dogs on the planet, you have got to give him a "job" or he will find one himself (which he has!). All dogs do this unless their energies are channeled in a good way, i.e. the way we want them to be. But unfortunately, this takes a lot of effort and absolutely is challenging.

I'm not going to put you on the hot spot to ask what you do with him, but rather, I'll tell you what should happen. He should be exercising, ideally in the morning and again in the afternoon or evening. Play fetch with him, or frisbee, or tennis ball, whatever. Play hard. And walking him regularly will help him realize that people around the neighborhood are friends, not enemies.

Just a word about approaching people (or other dogs) when you have a dog that's wary. "Facing off" isn't a good thing. It puts a dog who's already feeling threatened in a defensive position, and that can lead to bites (if the offender doesn't read signals the dog is giving off and comes closer, etc, which sounds like is happening when you let strangers he's wary of pat him - at least right now). The dog should be looking to you for direction in unsure conditions, but this needs to be taught/learned by both of you and may take special help and lots of practice. You can also "distract" with something like a tennis ball, and walking "with" people as opposed to facing off makes people more "friends"/ part of your pack rather than "enemies" or people to be feared, etc.

Make sure you get a copy of the book I listed above.

 

[Agri]

Just be honest - tell people that your dog is not good with strangers and that they need to keep their distance. I wouldn't paint it as a bad day, by that definition, our dog is always having a bad day. We're very clear about keeping him away from strangers. I can't tell you how many times I've seen owners at the vet tell people point-blank that their dog is not good with strangers and needs their personal space.

Also - my mom is the problem with her dog because she does coddle him. Instead of commanding him to sit, she requests it. When its time for him to come in, its "Come on" repeatedly and then "I'm leaving you" (a guilt trip) not "Get in here!". First thing when she would get home from work, she'd fawn over him and let him out (bad thing to do to a dog who has behavior problems). The worst is that when he gets upset and barks, she'll hold him and comfort him - which validates his reaction and encourages it.

There are all sorts of ways of establishing your dominance, like taking care of something else before you let him out of his kennel (not saying to spend a long time doing something else, but just enough time so he knows he's not #1). Make him do something to earn affection - like make him sit before you pet him. When he acts up, make him sit and lay down - it takes them out of their attack stance and puts you in control of his actions.

 

[Wonders10]

Your posts are long (like mine ) and my time is limited this morning so I'm going to have to speak generally rather than try to address each thing you've written.

Dog needs direction from you while out on the porch. Every single time. Do not leave him out there alone until and unless he's reliable. Over time, once he learns from you how to behave out there, you can begin to leave *a little* but be right nearby to correct if need be, etc. Never leave him alone to get back to bad habits or you'll be back to square one again. Now, if you had been doing this from the time the dog first went out there, it would probably be easier. But now you're reteaching/relearning and that is usually harder. (Not to pick on you. We all make these types of mistakes with our dogs - though they're usually hard to see when we're "living them". I'm pointing it out to demonstrate.)

I'm not going to put you on the hot spot to ask what you do with him, but rather, I'll tell you what should happen. He should be exercising, ideally in the morning and again in the afternoon or evening. Play fetch with him, or frisbee, or tennis ball, whatever. Play hard. And walking him regularly will help him realize that people around the neighborhood are friends, not enemies.

Yes my posts tend to get long...I just want to make sure I'm giving what I feel is important information and making all my points clear. Not always successful - the joys of using discussion boards, but I try.

One thing, and I know you aren't picking on me, but I get it. I screwed up. You've said it twice now all the things I should have been doing. I don't have a time machine so now the problem is there and I need advice on how to get back in control. Which you have given me good suggestions, thank you.

As far as activity, he attends doggy daycare, which he loves, and comes home utterly exhausted. It's like I don't even know he is in the house. On days he does not go, we will do walks (although he makes it one lap and refuses to do anymore - yes I've tried luring with treats, being the boss, getting all excited and running ahead in hopes he will follow - it works for a few more steps and then he stops so we head back in). He also plays fetch inside occasionally (its not his favorite game) with Winston approved toys.

For talking with strangers, I can tell when he is not liking the situation and I do put a stop to those interactions. You are right, a lot of people get very sympathetic and instantly crouch lower, put their hand out so he can smell it, and talk softly to him. There are times it works. There are also times where he wants nothing more than to say hello to someone that has come up to us and will stand there for a few minutes enjoying the attention from that stranger. So I do want to encourage that positive interaction with people, if he is open to it at the time. Just an example, at the Vet, the techs and receptionists always come over and say hello to it and he loves it. Even the other patients and their human owners, he can't get enough of them. But if those same people were outside with us right now, it might be a different story.

I've read lots of articles and books about being the boss of your dog over the years. They have great information, but I really need to see it in action, especially when it is a corrective behavior. Which is why I think I will call one of the trainers I have heard good things about this week and see if they do "house calls" so we can start working on this issue.

Thank you everyone for your suggestions.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

One thing, and I know you aren't picking on me, but I get it. I screwed up. You've said it twice now all the things I should have been doing. I don't have a time machine so now the problem is there and I need advice on how to get back in control. Which you have given me good suggestions, thank you.

If I know about a particular problem, it's likely because I've experienced it myself and learned how to work with it.

One of the reasons I take time to post on these threads is because I know there are others reading here who are also going to learn. And if people and dogs benefit from that, then I'm glad to have been able to help.

So you're actually helping others, too, by posting your problem. Yours is not an uncommon problem, even though it might manifest itself a little differently in every situation.

 

[UtahMama]

Thank you to all the contributors of this thread. I've learned so much!
I have a new Australian Shepherd pup who is potentially THEE best, smartest dog in the history of ever. I'm taking in all the tips and the book recommendation and will work a little harder with my Bodhi-dog.

Wonders10- I remember all you went through in chosing Winston. His cuteness-factor is off the charts. You are a good doggie-mama,your post prooves it. Best of luck with the training (re-training).