Banned Books

[Uuaww]

I agree on Lolita and The Lottery being banned, no one the rest.

 

[mdrob214]

It makes me so angry when people want to ban books. I agree there is such a thing as age-appropriateness, though.

Both of my kids have recently read The Giver in school. DS's teacher (6th grade) has been reading it to the whole class and then they have great discussions, DD's honors english (9th grade) read it and had great in-depth discusion and projects.

Our local public library celebrates a banned book month, too. Love it!

 

[NMAmy]

I agree on Lolita and The Lottery being banned, no one the rest.

So no one should be able to read them because you don't like them?

 

[KimR]

I agree on Lolita and The Lottery being banned, no one the rest.

We read The Lottery in 7th grade and I have to say I was deeply disturbed by it. I don't think it should be banned, but at the time, I certainly wished I hadn't read it. Oh, and if that wasn't enough, we also watched the movie.

 

[scottishduffy]

My high school banned any book they considered un-christain. Either written by a non-christain or carrying a non-religious message. That pretty much eliminated all classic literature. The only books I was assigned in high school were Pilgrims Progess and The Scarlett Letter (but they really messed with the interpretation of it).

I started going through the list and bringing the books to school. At first, my teachers were thrilled! Fahrenheit 451, Collected works of Edgar Allen Poe, Several Mark Twain books, I know why the caged bird sings, 1984, Lolita, The Cancer ward... i went through tons of books. As previously stated my english teacher was *really* proud of me at first. Until i started to test her committment to reading of banned books. I then started bringing in the REALLY questionable books: Mein Kampf, Abby Koffman's 'Steal this book', Mao's little red book, Wiccan books, Satanic Verses (just the name gets a reaction). Then.... teacher wasn't happy anymore. The called home, but my dad had bought them all for me. He knew.

You people who say that you are against banning of any book. Would you be supportive if like me... your 15-18 yr old wanted the anarchist cookbook? Mein Kampf?

Hubby and I were shocked when we were recently talking to a 14 yr old nephew and discussing school. He started talking about a book he was assigned. Hubby asked him "Have you been assigned Lord of the Flies yet? I loved it" Nephew had never heard of it. He had also never heard of Anne Frank, Huck Finn, To kill a mockingbird, Fahrenheit 451, 1984, I know why the caged bird sins, Cathcher in the Rye, Where the red fern grows, Number the Stars, or any book we could think of. He goes to what is considered a great school and not only are these books not assigned he has never HEARD of them!! That is a crime! Dodging touchy subjects and books won't make them go away. Many of these books make for great discussion on history and the periods in which they were written. How can you learn from history if you aren't aware of it??

 

[NMAmy]

You people who say that you are against banning of any book. Would you be supportive if like me... your 15-18 yr old wanted the anarchist cookbook? Mein Kampf?

Yes, I would be supportive. I'd also be reading them at the same time so we could discuss them and I'd be curious as to what attracted her to them to begin with.

Hubby and I were shocked when we were recently talking to a 14 yr old nephew and discussing school. He started talking about a book he was assigned. Hubby asked him "Have you been assigned Lord of the Flies yet? I loved it" Nephew had never heard of it. He had also never heard of Anne Frank, Huck Finn, To kill a mockingbird, Fahrenheit 451, 1984, I know why the caged bird sins, Cathcher in the Rye, Where the red fern grows, Number the Stars, or any book we could think of. He goes to what is considered a great school and not only are these books not assigned he has never HEARD of them!! That is a crime! Dodging touchy subjects and books won't make them go away. Many of these books make for great discussion on history and the periods in which they were written. How can you learn from history if you aren't aware of it??

If my kid wasn't reading these in school, she'd be reading them at home. Obviously, schools can't cover every book so isn't it really up to the parents to make sure that their kids are reading the books they feel are important? She's read some of them at school (and some that aren't on your list) but not all of them were covered in class.

I'm a reader and so is dd. She's had all these books readily available and often when she's looking for a new book to read, I'll pull one off the shelf and tell her that I think she'd like it and then we talk about the book when she's done.

 

[scottishduffy]

My father discussed the *super* questionable books with me. As to why I read... sheer curiousity. What do these people say that is so horrible? How can I be strong in what I believe is right if I have never been exposed to the other side? I was curious about what 'others' believed.

The Koffman had chapters on how make homemade bombs, shoplift, and other assorted illegal activites. My dad and i talked about who the author was and what he stood for. Why he wrote it and why most people hated the book. I pretty much just though that book was kinda funny. Neither one of us agreed with it, but we both liked reading ideas other than our own.

As far as the latter part of the post, I would also highly encourage kids to read certain books at home. We were just astounded he had never even HEARD of the books much less read them. We convinced him to go home and read Lord of the Flies... but still! It was amazing all of the great books he has never been exposed to. While I am an avid reader, i would bet the most kids who are not assigned those older books at school will not read them at home. They will miss out on what I consider to be an essential part of basic education and cultural awareness.

 

[castleview]

I'm totally against banning books - English major here , but I think a school library can decide which books they will put on the shelf. I have to admit that if my kids were assigned to read The Lottery or Lolita in junior high school, I'd make some noise. That's a little young and common sense would keep me from encouraging my kids to read that book then.

One of the most infuriating book banning attempts, I saw was from a mother who didn't want her high school junior reading The Joy Luck Club by Amy Tan. That was ridiculous.

 

[ZephyrHawk]

I don't believe in banning any book ever.

 

[koolaidmoms]

I don't believe in banning any book ever.

I agree with PP. I think some discretion is needed if these books are used in school. I too read The Lottery in 7th grade and was deeply upset by it. If my DD or DS read it in 9th grade or so I would be okay with it.

What I notice at least from the English teachers I know is a wanting to keep the kids interested in reading so they are reading more current books and not so much the classics. I see Inkspell and Ender's Game and not Farenheit 451 or To Kill a Mockingbird being assigned.

 

[mdrob214]

My high school banned any book they considered un-christain. Either written by a non-christain or carrying a non-religious message. That pretty much eliminated all classic literature. The only books I was assigned in high school were Pilgrims Progess and The Scarlett Letter (but they really messed with the interpretation of it).

I started going through the list and bringing the books to school. At first, my teachers were thrilled! Fahrenheit 451, Collected works of Edgar Allen Poe, Several Mark Twain books, I know why the caged bird sings, 1984, Lolita, The Cancer ward... i went through tons of books. As previously stated my english teacher was *really* proud of me at first. Until i started to test her committment to reading of banned books. I then started bringing in the REALLY questionable books: Mein Kampf, Abby Koffman's 'Steal this book', Mao's little red book, Wiccan books, Satanic Verses (just the name gets a reaction). Then.... teacher wasn't happy anymore. The called home, but my dad had bought them all for me. He knew.

You people who say that you are against banning of any book. Would you be supportive if like me... your 15-18 yr old wanted the anarchist cookbook? Mein Kampf?

Hubby and I were shocked when we were recently talking to a 14 yr old nephew and discussing school. He started talking about a book he was assigned. Hubby asked him "Have you been assigned Lord of the Flies yet? I loved it" Nephew had never heard of it. He had also never heard of Anne Frank, Huck Finn, To kill a mockingbird, Fahrenheit 451, 1984, I know why the caged bird sins, Cathcher in the Rye, Where the red fern grows, Number the Stars, or any book we could think of. He goes to what is considered a great school and not only are these books not assigned he has never HEARD of them!! That is a crime! Dodging touchy subjects and books won't make them go away. Many of these books make for great discussion on history and the periods in which they were written. How can you learn from history if you aren't aware of it??

Well, I haven't read those, but I have a DD15 and I would let her read just about anything if she were interested. She's mature enough to be able to discuss and read most anything. Many of the banned books are not banned for her classes, but I also encourage her to choose classics that they don't read in school. Some she loves, some she hates.

And I think schools can still be good schools, even if the kids aren't reading certain books. Does that make sense? A good teacher can still teach literature without To Kill A Mockingbird, for example. They'd be missing an opportunity to share a great book, but it can be done and done well.

 

[Disney Doll]

Exactly my thought.

As a lawyer with strong feelings on 'freedom of speech', I believe no book should be 'banned'. However, for schools, 'age appropriateness' is key.

It reminds me of the book "The Hiding Place" by Corrie Ten Boon (I hope I spelled her name right). She describes a scene when she was a young girl and asked her father a question (about the Nazi's or such). The father replied "Corrie, would you carry my bag for a bit". Corrie tried, but it was much too heavy for her, and she told her father so. "Yes", he replied, "I would be a poor father to have you carry such a heavy object. Just like the question you asked: you are too young to understand the answer, and I would be a poor father to ask you to try to understand it at your age".

Huckleberry Finn is a wonderful book, but it is too much to ask a young child to carry its thoughts. Same for many other 'banned' books in schools.

However, by senior year of high school (at least) most youngsters are ready to accept, or at least think about, the ideas in such books.

I agree witht his.

 

[NotUrsula]

Well, since the Anarchist's Cookbook is a chemistry manual, it's going to be less about reading it than doing the lab work. (For those that don't know, the Anarchist's Cookbook is a technical manual on the making of improvised bombs. The FBI tends to get all twitchy about it and routinely surveils any dealer that sells it.)

So my answer is read away, but the lab work would have to be done under adult supervision.

As to Mein Kampf, yes. Also, The Prince.

I've been a practicing librarian for over 20 years now. I've seen all kinds of challenges, and I've yet to deal with a formal one that did not make the challenger look ignorant and paranoid in the end.

 

[Calrissian13]

This is sooo a subject that is near and dear to my heart. I'm a librarian, and books are my passion, and nothing gets me stirred up more than when people want to restrict someone else's right to read whatever they want to.

I've read more banned books than I can count, and am dismayed by what books actually have been banned over the years (The Handmaid's Tale, To Kill a Mockingbird, Harry Potter, THe Golden Compass).

While I agree with age appropriateness, I don't really have the right to preach about it (I read Flowers in the Attic when I was ten in my aunt's basement and Dracula when I was thirteen). I just loved to read, if someone told me not to read something, well, I just found a way to read it without anyone knowing.

You should check out this website: http://www.freedomtoread.ca/ , it gives a lot of information about banned books and what you can do to show your support against the book censorship.

Okay...off my soapbox...

 

[daisax]

oh and i learned swear words on the bus in grade school, not from reading those books. haha.

I remember somebody smuggling a copy of The Godfather on the schoolbus in 6th grade and reading the parts with the bad swears in 'em

In most cases, kids won't be drawn to or stick with books above their comprehension level, so a 6th grader who wants to read and enjoys reading Huck Finn is a 6th grader who can understand the content (hopefully with some adult input, of course, but not a castastrophe without it. The local loser nogoodnik kid who is likely to misinterpret the racial aspect of it is also unlikely to get very far into it).

When a book is more user friendly but also deals in very complex social/historical issues (To Kill a Mockingbird), teaching it is preferable to reading it on your own if you're younger, because they lend themselves to teachable moments. Unfortunately, it's the likelihood of the teachable moments which leads ignorant people to want to ban them, because they don't want their children talking about rape and racism in 7th grade.

 

[Geoff_M]

Well, since the Anarchist's Cookbook is a chemistry manual, it's going to be less about reading it than doing the lab work. (For those that don't know, the Anarchist's Cookbook is a technical manual on the making of improvised bombs. The FBI tends to get all twitchy about it and routinely surveils any dealer that sells it.)

Um, the Anarchist's Cookbook is MUCH more than just a chemistry cookbook. It also deals with sabotage techniques, as well as creative ways to kill and injure people. Much of its contents were boiled down from military special forces manuals. When budding anarchists aren't trying to blow people or things up, the book also offers help in ways to produce a number of recreational drugs and hallucinogenics to help unwind afterwards! I'm also amused at the thought of the FBI keeping a constant vigil outside of Amazon's warehouse!

As I've said in other threads on this topic, part of me is a little uneasy about such "Banned Book" celebrations...(from 2006)

While this discussion is all well and good, and I agree that the world does not lack a shortage of pinheads that want to do things like ban To Kill A Mockingbird for highly questionable reasons, there are somethings that alway make me uncomfortable with this ALA annual "celebration":

1) The ALA seems to imply that "banned" books are somehow more noble than other books... or that they are automatically worthy of respect.

2) Banned books, we are told, are "Your ticket to Freedom". I realize that on one level they are referring to our "Freedom of Speech", but is opting to not use a book in a classroom tantamount to suppression of speech? If I'm concerned that something my child is being asked to read in school isn't, in my view, age-appropriate then does me questioning that out loud make me the same as a "book burner"? So what's a parent in this situation supposed to do?

There will always be twit parents who challenge books in classes on seemingly laughable grounds. When this happens, it should be other parents' duty to stand up and say "Now, come on..." but is having such discussions about reading materials inherently "bad", and does it make such books that are discussed "good"? From the way I read the ALA, I think the answer is "yes".

After I posted the above, I gave an example of a book that I might consider as worthy of "banning" in a classroom. I picked The Anarchist's Cookbook...

My daughter loves Chemistry in high school. Say her teacher decides to try and make the subject more appealing to her class and, being a "hip" teacher, she decides to use another Classic Banned Book in her class: The Anarchist's Cookbook** (#57 on their big "Top 100" from 1990-2000). This book is truely one of the classic books for teenage boys. It contains everything your average teenage boy would go ape over: how to make homemade explosives, thermite(!), pipe bombs, b00by traps, how to bring down structures with explosives, and whole lot more. I saw it first when I was in high school and thought it was one of the coolest books I'd ever seen.

While the odds are very low that a teacher would use this book in their class, I don't think it all that far fetched given that each year we read a handful of news articles about a teacher that gets into hot water for incorporating something into the classroom that makes people think "What were they thinking!?!?!?" It was in my Chemistry class that I first read the "cookbook" when one of my classmates brought it in. Our teacher thought it was interesting and we spent some time talking about its contents.

Blowing things up in class is a time honored means to retain class interest in high school chemistry. So the teacher decided to bring in some copies of the "cookbook" and use some of the "minor" recipes in the class to let the students make some of the more benign stuff in their labs and make some small fireworks in the process.

Say my daughter comes home and reports to me about this cool stuff her teacher had her do in Chemistry class and tell me about this book they used. Having firsthand knowledge of the book, I'd suggest to her teacher that this book probably ought to not be used in her class. She and I then have a difference of opinion on the matter, so I next talk to the administration and suggest that the Anarchist's Cookbook probably shouldn't be used as part of the teacher's curriculum. They look at the book and agree that it shouldn't be used in conjunction with the class.

Per the ALA, my actions would be no different than if I had instead tried to bounce The Diary of Anne Frank out of my daughter's English class or Captain Underpants out of the the elementary library. My actions, even though not aimed at a library, would still be used to ensconce The Anarchist's Cookbook on its "celebration" list... contrary to what your local librarians think about the ALA's emphasis. To them, I would be viewed as a suppressor of Free Speech. This lack of differentiation is the main source of my discomfort with the ALA "banned book program".


** = Interesting note about this book. It's author William Powell wrote the book as a teenager as a response to this feelings about the Vietnam War. Later he renounced his views that violence as a legitimate means of political change. He attempted to halt the production of the work, only to find out that the copyright had been assigned to the publisher instead of himself. The publisher refused his request and the publication went on.

When it was then suggested that my hypothetical was far fetched, I commented:

Remember, it was requested to be removed from libraries or classrooms enough times to land it on the #57 position of the ALA's "Top 100" list. Per the ALA FAQ on the list:A challenge is an attempt to remove or restrict materials, based upon the objections of a person or group. A banning is the removal of those materials.FWIW, the "cookbook" is higher on that list than The Adventures of Tom Sawyer, Lord of the Flies, Slaughterhouse Five, Native Son, and Carrie.

 

[AmandaSparks730]

Some mentioned The Giver.

My 6th grade teacher read it to our class as a "read-aloud" book. My 8th grade honors English class then read it again, comparing utopian vs. dystopian societies (we also read The Lottery). It was fascinating, really. Really made you think about society, and even though one might say it's "perfect" (such as in The Giver), there are always dark undertones/secrets/histories. Gave me the chills.

Banning books is ridiculous, IMO. If *you* don't want to read the book, that's fine. I won't stop you. But just because *you* think it's "bad", doesn't mean you can stop others from reading them.

 

[NotUrsula]

Oh, I know what's in the Cookbook -- I own it. I was being a bit simplistic for the thread; yes, there is more to it than straight chemistry, but at heart it is a manual more than it is a manifesto. The FBI does monitor the production runs and pays attention to the content of the backlists of those who sell it. In situations like that of the late Loompanics Unlimited and Paladin, the attention can lead to subpoenas of customer lists.

FTR, at no library that I have ever worked in has the Cookbook ever been a circulating title. It is always kept in the Rare Books collection, though lately it isn't really rare. (It used to be very hard to find unless you bought it through Loompanics, but the internet has changed all that.)
The reason that it doesn't circulate is simple and always the same: if it does, it walks, and the cost of replacing it over and over again gets ridiculous. (While it might be 57th on the list of most challenged books, there are only a total of 279 copies cataloged in US libraries; and most of them are currently missing.)

About 16 years ago when I was managing a public library, I had a patron who was always asking me for various Paladin titles. Since he was the ONLY patron I had who wanted them, I declined to spend public resources on the purchases. I very assiduously requested them through interlibrary loan for him, and about 75% of the time could not find them; because other libraries were not buying much Paladin, either, and for the same reason. Most people who are fans of Paladin's list are very distrustful of government; they are not going to be asking public librarians to get them their reading matter. Therefore there just isn't sufficient demand for it in libraries.

The point of those two stories is to show you that librarians who work in public institutions have a mandate of stewardship of public monies, and we normally don't get all the money we need. There are very few of us who could keep our jobs if we got into the habit of buying things just for the shock value, when there are far more compelling uses for the money. The only places that I have worked that held the Cookbook did so for one of two reasons: 1) It was a donation that had not cost us a dime, or 2) it was purchased in support of curriculum interests, always at the university level.

We buy things because they are well-reviewed by respected authorities, because they are in popular demand, or (in educational settings) because they are requested by faculty for curriculum support. Donations can be trickier, but that's why we have collection development policies that let us decline titles or weed them if we do not have evidence that they merit shelf space. However, regardless of our personal opinions, we have to accept demand; in our world junk is worthwhile if hundreds of people want it, and that is usually why we end up defending things like "The Betsy."

 

[rabyoga]

I find it interesting that Fahrenheit 451 is on that list. It is a book about censorship (among other things). 451 degrees fahrenheit is the temperature at which paper burns.

Ray Bradbury was a freakin' genius.

My thoughts exactly! I believe that "Fahrenheit 451 is the GREAT American Novel!" And how ironic (but utterly predictable) that people would want to ban it.

 

[Mikelly1221]

My high school banned any book they considered un-christain. Either written by a non-christain or carrying a non-religious message. That pretty much eliminated all classic literature. The only books I was assigned in high school were Pilgrims Progess and The Scarlett Letter (but they really messed with the interpretation of it).

I started going through the list and bringing the books to school. At first, my teachers were thrilled! Fahrenheit 451, Collected works of Edgar Allen Poe, Several Mark Twain books, I know why the caged bird sings, 1984, Lolita, The Cancer ward... i went through tons of books. As previously stated my english teacher was *really* proud of me at first. Until i started to test her committment to reading of banned books. I then started bringing in the REALLY questionable books: Mein Kampf, Abby Koffman's 'Steal this book', Mao's little red book, Wiccan books, Satanic Verses (just the name gets a reaction). Then.... teacher wasn't happy anymore. The called home, but my dad had bought them all for me. He knew.

You people who say that you are against banning of any book. Would you be supportive if like me... your 15-18 yr old wanted the anarchist cookbook? Mein Kampf?
Hubby and I were shocked when we were recently talking to a 14 yr old nephew and discussing school. He started talking about a book he was assigned. Hubby asked him "Have you been assigned Lord of the Flies yet? I loved it" Nephew had never heard of it. He had also never heard of Anne Frank, Huck Finn, To kill a mockingbird, Fahrenheit 451, 1984, I know why the caged bird sins, Cathcher in the Rye, Where the red fern grows, Number the Stars, or any book we could think of. He goes to what is considered a great school and not only are these books not assigned he has never HEARD of them!! That is a crime! Dodging touchy subjects and books won't make them go away. Many of these books make for great discussion on history and the periods in which they were written. How can you learn from history if you aren't aware of it??

I can't really give you a blanket answer to your question. The closest I'd come is I'd have to see which child wanted to read what book, and I'd have to read them 1st if I haven't. For example, I could completely see DS reading the anarchist's cookbook and then blowing up his room! So, I might hold that one back from him, but DD could maybe read it. Hopefully that makes sense.

However, banning them outright? Nope.