Band Director Arrogance?

[Pigeon]

By the time they got to 6th grade, my kids' band or orchestra concerts were actually amazingly good. They weren't painful to listen to at all. But no, they aren't the New York Philharmonic. But then again, the sixth grade game isn't exactly the World Cup, either.

OP, why isn't it OK for the kid to skip a game here and there if you think it's OK for them to skip a concert?

 

[MosMom]

By the time they got to 6th grade, my kids' band or orchestra concerts were actually amazingly good. They weren't painful to listen to at all. But no, they aren't the New York Philharmonic. But then again, the sixth grade game isn't exactly the World Cup, either.

OP, why isn't it OK for the kid to skip a game here and there if you think it's OK for them to skip a concert?

Because the OP enjoys sports over band so it ticks them off.

 

[mjkacmom]

Not really. I guess you must not be a sports fan.

I am totally serious. NEED TO CHOOSE? For gosh sake, he's 11. He taking band to see if he will like playing an instrument. He's not signing over his first born.

And band concerts at this age are a joke. I doubt many parents are there to hear great music. They are there to watch their child perform.

Well, I'm a sports fan. Ds12 is on 4 teams this season, and will taking band and concert choir. He will miss games for performances, and DH, his travel soccer coach, is fine with that. When he signed up, he knew about the committment. Our music program is in the top 100 in the nation. The middle school band and choirs are amazing, and win a lot of awards. He will also participate in HS. My neighbor just quit football, because he couldn't do marching band as well, and our band is WAY better than our football team!

 

[threecrazykids]

It's only my 0.02 but here it is...(this is more in regards to high school kids)

I think the band director is using the fact that he can manipulate a childs grade based on their performance attendance to his advantage. He can put in a handbook "all performances are required" and surprisingly enough those 1 or 2 performances are more than 50% of their grade. Which really annoys me because there is no way possible that a band director has enough time to truly "grade" each childs performance and playing ability in the amount of time each concert takes (and do it effectively unless there is a very small amount of kids in the band). It's based on their attendance, not their performance. That is just wrong. Those kids work day in and out, practice, take written tests etc. so being able to flunk them for 1 performance missed is (in my opinion) ridiculous. No other teacher can flunk a student for missing one test (which to me is the same as a performance).

Number 2...as much as a band director may or may not want to hear it but sometimes the "extra curricular" activities are these kids only hope of attending college. An athletic scholarship is sometimes all these kids are working towards!
Putting that kind of weight on a kid is sometimes more than a child should have to handle.

Sports are not "graded" per se but attendance at both events should be equally important. It's all about playing as a team in both the sports AND the band. And the fact that the band director uses his "flunking ability" to manipulate these kids to choose...they should be ashamed. With the amount of fine arts being completely removed from schools they really shouldn't make it any harder on kids than it already is.

Accepting the fact that a child likes a sport MORE than performing in a band concert shouldn't be grounds to flunk them.

 

[Kae]

It's only my 0.02 but here it is...(this is more in regards to high school kids)

I think the band director is using the fact that he can manipulate a childs grade based on their performance attendance to his advantage. He can put in a handbook "all performances are required" and surprisingly enough those 1 or 2 performances are more than 50% of their grade. Which really annoys me because there is no way possible that a band director has enough time to truly "grade" each childs performance and playing ability in the amount of time each concert takes (and do it effectively unless there is a very small amount of kids in the band). It's based on their attendance, not their performance. That is just wrong. Those kids work day in and out, practice, take written tests etc. so being able to flunk them for 1 performance missed is (in my opinion) ridiculous. No other teacher can flunk a student for missing one test (which to me is the same as a performance).

Number 2...as much as a band director may or may not want to hear it but sometimes the "extra curricular" activities are these kids only hope of attending college. An athletic scholarship is sometimes all these kids are working towards!
Putting that kind of weight on a kid is sometimes more than a child should have to handle.

Sports are not "graded" per se but attendance at both events should be equally important. It's all about playing as a team in both the sports AND the band. And the fact that the band director uses his "flunking ability" to manipulate these kids to choose...they should be ashamed. With the amount of fine arts being completely removed from schools they really shouldn't make it any harder on kids than it already is.

Accepting the fact that a child likes a sport MORE than performing in a band concert shouldn't be grounds to flunk them.

But they signed up for Band & all that goes with it. I do not consider that manipulation.

And do you really think that most kids have a better chance at a sports scholarship than a academic scholarship? Only certain divisions of Schools can offer athletic scholarships.

Kae

 

[Ppufi]

It's only my 0.02 but here it is...(this is more in regards to high school kids)

I think the band director is using the fact that he can manipulate a childs grade based on their performance attendance to his advantage. He can put in a handbook "all performances are required" and surprisingly enough those 1 or 2 performances are more than 50% of their grade. Which really annoys me because there is no way possible that a band director has enough time to truly "grade" each childs performance and playing ability in the amount of time each concert takes (and do it effectively unless there is a very small amount of kids in the band). It's based on their attendance, not their performance. That is just wrong. Those kids work day in and out, practice, take written tests etc. so being able to flunk them for 1 performance missed is (in my opinion) ridiculous. No other teacher can flunk a student for missing one test (which to me is the same as a performance).

Number 2...as much as a band director may or may not want to hear it but sometimes the "extra curricular" activities are these kids only hope of attending college. An athletic scholarship is sometimes all these kids are working towards!
Putting that kind of weight on a kid is sometimes more than a child should have to handle.

Sports are not "graded" per se but attendance at both events should be equally important. It's all about playing as a team in both the sports AND the band. And the fact that the band director uses his "flunking ability" to manipulate these kids to choose...they should be ashamed. With the amount of fine arts being completely removed from schools they really shouldn't make it any harder on kids than it already is.

Accepting the fact that a child likes a sport MORE than performing in a band concert shouldn't be grounds to flunk them.

Then they shouldn't be in band. Band performances are not at all like tests or quizzes, which I know I have a lot of. There is one, two, maybe three concerts per year. That's all you work for in band, save for lessons to improve your own skills. If you can't come, you've wasted the time of the director, your bandmates, and yourself. So yes, if you're going to come to band every day, practice, and become an important part of the band, only to not come to the concert, it's only fair to fail.


Edit: Just adding from what I heard touring a state school with my class this year. The people who spoke with us there said that sports scholarships really aren't handed out often at all, so you better pull your grades up just in case.

 

[Scurvy]

It's only my 0.02 but here it is...(this is more in regards to high school kids)

I think the band director is using the fact that he can manipulate a childs grade based on their performance attendance to his advantage. He can put in a handbook "all performances are required" and surprisingly enough those 1 or 2 performances are more than 50% of their grade. Which really annoys me because there is no way possible that a band director has enough time to truly "grade" each childs performance and playing ability in the amount of time each concert takes (and do it effectively unless there is a very small amount of kids in the band). It's based on their attendance, not their performance. That is just wrong. Those kids work day in and out, practice, take written tests etc. so being able to flunk them for 1 performance missed is (in my opinion) ridiculous. No other teacher can flunk a student for missing one test (which to me is the same as a performance).

Number 2...as much as a band director may or may not want to hear it but sometimes the "extra curricular" activities are these kids only hope of attending college. An athletic scholarship is sometimes all these kids are working towards!
Putting that kind of weight on a kid is sometimes more than a child should have to handle.

Sports are not "graded" per se but attendance at both events should be equally important. It's all about playing as a team in both the sports AND the band. And the fact that the band director uses his "flunking ability" to manipulate these kids to choose...they should be ashamed. With the amount of fine arts being completely removed from schools they really shouldn't make it any harder on kids than it already is.

Accepting the fact that a child likes a sport MORE than performing in a band concert shouldn't be grounds to flunk them.

Since you're talking about high school band - Honestly, if a student doesn't have time for the band concert because of their extracurricular commitments, they probably don't have time for band, period. High school band is usually fairly demanding when it comes to time. There are after school practices, competitions, concerts . . . not to mention all the individual practice time the students are expected to put in. If the student is focused on achieving an athletic scholarship, I imagine they are probably devoting quite a bit of time to their sport, as well. Some kids are focused on a music scholarship, and they probably wouldn't have much time for sports. I think at that point they really need to choose which one they are going to commit to, since each one has obligations that goe along with it.

As for giving a student a failing grade for not attending a required activity, that seems reasonable to me. Presumably the requirements are made clear to begin with so the student can decide if they can meet the demands of the course before they commit to it. It's not unlike missing a final exam in some classes, where a zero would drastically reduce your semester grade. Band directors are human, they will try to work with a student who has an unavoidable conflict so the student can make up the missed grade somehow. A sports event would not ordinarily be seen as unavoidable, however. And as previously mentioned, it really isn't fair to the rest of the band. They practice their pieces with the entire band, and the sound can change significantly if someone doesn't show up for the performance, and usually not for the better.

 

[threecrazykids]

And I agree with all of your points I still however feel that making a kid be able to flunk a class based on one performance is still ridiculous. No other class would be allowed to flunk a kid based on one missed event. And it's all relevent as to what is considered "unexcused". When a band director says "NOTHING is excused" (as a prior poster said)I think that is taking their power just a little too far. I understand unexcused might be applicable for missing one event for a sporting event. However a funeral in the family etc. IS excusable and I'd be raising all sorts of hell if they tried to tell me it wasn't excused.

Also (as the above poster mentioned) if a child misses a final exam they typically have options to make up the test etc. I have NEVER met a teacher who has the authority (other than a band director) to say if you miss any test for ANY reason you will flunk this class.

God help the students who are going through a mother/father with cancer or dealing with medical issues of their own.

 

[Chelley00]

No other class would be allowed to flunk a kid based on one missed event.
Also (as the above poster mentioned) if a child misses a final exam they typically have options to make up the test etc.

That's just it. For band, concerts are usually weighted as a final exam. You can't make those up.

 

[threecrazykids]

That's just it. For band, concerts are usually weighted as a final exam. You can't make those up.

You may not be able to make up the performance but I would surely hope there was SOMETHING this child could do to earn enough credit to pass. Regardless if you know the schedule ahead of time, life happens. Draging a kids GPA down because of ONE band performance (or ONE test) for that matter is just crazy! For goodness sake, that grade could make or break a kid being eligible for college!

"Mom, Dad...just got my final transcript. Not eligible for a 4 year college."
"Why?"
"Missed that darned band performance for Grandmas funeral."

 

[Ppufi]

I must say none of my band teachers would bat an eye if you/family was incredibly sick or dying. They mean sports, appointments that are just checkups or such (because you get the concert dates the first day of school), sickness that's a headache or a cold, stuff like that.

 

[Scurvy]

And I agree with all of your points I still however feel that making a kid be able to flunk a class based on one performance is still ridiculous. No other class would be allowed to flunk a kid based on one missed event. And it's all relevent as to what is considered "unexcused". When a band director says "NOTHING is excused" (as a prior poster said)I think that is taking their power just a little too far. I understand unexcused might be applicable for missing one event for a sporting event. However a funeral in the family etc. IS excusable and I'd be raising all sorts of hell if they tried to tell me it wasn't excused.

Also (as the above poster mentioned) if a child misses a final exam they typically have options to make up the test etc. I have NEVER met a teacher who has the authority (other than a band director) to say if you miss any test for ANY reason you will flunk this class.

God help the students who are going through a mother/father with cancer or dealing with medical issues of their own.

Maybe your classes were different. Way back when I was in school, if you missed the final exam of a class for a reason that wasn't excused, you did not make up the exam. You got a zero, and if that exam was weighted enough and/or your other grades in the class weren't high enough, you'd fail the class. Illness with a doctor's note or death in the family were good reasons to make up the final. A sporting event would not have been.

Most directors say nothing is excused. My son's director last year said that. It was listed in the handbook. But when my son had to miss a required competition which was a huge part of his semester grade because my father had just died of cancer, the director told us how sorry he was and said not to worry about the grade, of course my son could do something else to make up that grade. Would he have done that if my son chose to miss the concert for a game of some sort? I seriously doubt it, especially since my son had a solo and they had to scramble to assign it to someone else. Despite what you seem to think, band directors are not crazed dictators. They are reasonable people. But in the end all that matters is that you don't have to be in band. If you aren't willing to put in the work and meet the requirements of the class, don't enroll in the class. It's simple.

 

[threecrazykids]

Maybe your classes were different. Way back when I was in school, if you missed the final exam of a class for a reason that wasn't excused, you did not make up the exam. You got a zero, and if that exam was weighted enough and/or your other grades in the class weren't high enough, you'd fail the class. Illness with a doctor's note or death in the family were good reasons to make up the final. A sporting event would not have been.

Most directors say nothing is excused. My son's director last year said that. It was listed in the handbook. But when my son had to miss a required competition which was a huge part of his semester grade because my father had just died of cancer, the director told us how sorry he was and said not to worry about the grade, of course my son could do something else to make up that grade. Would he have done that if my son chose to miss the concert for a game of some sort? I seriously doubt it, especially since my son had a solo and they had to scramble to assign it to someone else. Despite what you seem to think, band directors are not crazed dictators. They are reasonable people. But in the end all that matters is that you don't have to be in band. If you aren't willing to put in the work and meet the requirements of the class, don't enroll in the class. It's simple.

This I agree with, but like I said before...when it's in the handbook that there are NO excused absences regardless of the reason then that is simply unreasonable. Choosing between a sporting event and a band event yes is a choice and I agree that the child may have to simply choose and pay the consequences.

Ok, theoretically speaking what if EVERY teacher had this policy? That it didn't matter WHAT the circumstances are, that if you miss a test you flunk. No way to make it up, etc. Then what? I just don't understand why band directors feel they can have their own set of rules as far as attendance that is different from any other graded class. These kids "perform" EVERY SINGLE DAY in all of their other classes...so because it's a "public" event that makes it more weightable on the grading scale?

 

[maxiesmom]

They are reasonable people. But in the end all that matters is that you don't have to be in band. If you aren't willing to put in the work and meet the requirements of the class, don't enroll in the class. It's simple.

Exactly!!!!!!

How about teaching your children that when they make a commitment, they need to honor it? Teach your child that they can't just kind of particiapte in a group activity when they feel like it, or when they don't have something better to do?

You know ahead of time what classes will take up time outside of the set school day. It is no secret that band concerts are after normal school hours, and that they are a huge part of your grade for that class. If that schedule doesn't work for your family, don't sign your child up for band. It is pretty ridiculous to sign up for it and expect to only show up when you feel like it.

 

[maxiesmom]

These kids "perform" EVERY SINGLE DAY in all of their other classes...so because it's a "public" event that makes it more weightable on the grading scale?

No they don't. Just like any other class most of the time is spent learning new things. You don't grade a child for the process of learning Algebra. You don't grade a child for the process of learing a new piece of music either.

 

[threecrazykids]

Exactly!!!!!!

How about teaching your children that when they make a commitment, they need to honor it? Teach your child that they can't just kind of particiapte in a group activity when they feel like it, or when they don't have something better to do?

You know ahead of time what classes will take up time outside of the set school day. It is no secret that band concerts are after normal school hours, and that they are a huge part of your grade for that class. If that schedule doesn't work for your family, don't sign your child up for band. It is pretty ridiculous to sign up for it and expect to only show up when you feel like it.

So then a child that chooses band should participate in NO OTHER extra curricular activities? Because if there is a conflict band ALWAYS wins? I would question whether the band director really has these kids best interest at heart if they have the philosophy that band "superscedes EVERYTHING else if you're out for band so if you might miss ONE performance then I don't want you at all."

 

[The Mystery Machine]

And I agree with all of your points I still however feel that making a kid be able to flunk a class based on one performance is still ridiculous. No other class would be allowed to flunk a kid based on one missed event. And it's all relevent as to what is considered "unexcused". When a band director says "NOTHING is excused" (as a prior poster said)I think that is taking their power just a little too far. I understand unexcused might be applicable for missing one event for a sporting event. However a funeral in the family etc. IS excusable and I'd be raising all sorts of hell if they tried to tell me it wasn't excused.

Also (as the above poster mentioned) if a child misses a final exam they typically have options to make up the test etc. I have NEVER met a teacher who has the authority (other than a band director) to say if you miss any test for ANY reason you will flunk this class.

God help the students who are going through a mother/father with cancer or dealing with medical issues of their own.

That would be an excused absence and the teacher would work it out.

My oldest was in band from 6th-11th and we made it through. You join band and pretty much know the schedule going in.

If you don't like it or it conflicts with stuff, don't take band. Most kids in band love the practices, concerts, and games. That is why they take the class.

My dd dropped band halfway through 11th to take AP European History. She loved history and made the choice to give up band. She was not going to major in music so decided to go in a different direction.

 

[threecrazykids]

No they don't. Just like any other class most of the time is spent learning new things. You don't grade a child for the process of learning Algebra. You don't grade a child for the process of learing a new piece of music either.

I'm not sure what school your children attend but my childrens school certainly DOES grade on the process of learning Algebra and other classes such as science. It's homework, quizzes, labs, etc.

And our band director also grades written reports, tests etc. on music history.

 

[maxiesmom]

So then a child that chooses band should participate in NO OTHER extra curricular activities? Because if there is a conflict band ALWAYS wins? I would question whether the band director really has these kids best interest at heart if they have the philosophy that band "superscedes EVERYTHING else if you're out for band so if you might miss ONE performance then I don't want you at all."

Yes. You know ahead of time that the performances are graded. If you can't make them, then you shouldn't take the class.

If you want your child to learn music just for the joy of it and to not have to be graded on it, you can always have them take private lessons.

Think about it. How many kids would show up for performance night if it wasn't a huge part of their grade? Even judging by this thread, not many. There would be football games that were more important, or dances, or mommy just didn't feel like driving that night.It wouldn't be at all fair to the kids who did care enough to show up, and who know sound awful because only half of their classmates cared enough to show up.

Again, you know ahead of time what being in band entails. If you can't meet the requirements, don't take the class. But don't expect the rules be changed to suit you.

 

[Mary•Poppins]

This is pretty standard for our band too. We live in a REALLY small school district and many kids are in multiple activities. The band director just asks to be respected for his time and profession. He tells all the coaches and students that if they miss a day in band (and this MUST be known on Aug. 9th) he will oblige, however, if another conflict comes up, the child MUST miss the sport. He stresses that his program is just as important as any sport.

I think this is a very fair way of dealing with this issue. (This is only during marching band. Since concert band performances are only 2 times a year ... they are mandatory.)

And I don't think band directors are arrogant ... he puts in A LOT of time with my children and I appreciate his dedication to his profession.