Ball caps & cell phones

[kaytieeldr]

Are you following the other basic rules of etiquette that have been around forever:

Do you wear white after Labor Day? According to information I was easily able to Google, "...beginning in the early 20th century, white clothing was a symbol of “well-to-do” Americans. It was a status symbol for those who were able to change their clothes by season..."

You're remembering to put on a slip and panty hose every time you wear a dress, right? No. Now if you meant "when necessary" to this fashion (not etiquette) advice (not rule) then yes.

I hope you only wear dark clothes to funerals Most people do, most of the time, absolutely - when they know what the right thing to do is. It's about respect. Not etiquette. and nothing black, red, or white to weddings. Again, tradition (not etiquette from which we're moving away. Black is absolutely acceptable, and very sophisticated especially at evening weddings. It even shows up in bridal parties. Red's a little more risqué, but absolutely fine. Heck, I saw a bride in a red gown in Las Vegas last year! White? Probably would have been fine on guests at that wedding and the many others where brides' gowns are unexpected colors.

I hope you aren't one of the ill-mannered women who refuse to wear white gloves to dinner? Well, okay, here I did find one ehow.com source on the seven occasions where one would wear white gloves - dinner not being one of them; and a Miss Abigail's Archived-something that says DON'T wear white gloves while dunking, eating, or smoking.

Baseball hats in public? Please! What happened to the good old days when men only wore suits unless they were going to the country where they were allowed to wear breeches and polished leather riding boots?

Yep, we are going to hell in a hand basket.

I think you're confusing tradition, and fashion/fashion faux pas, with true etiquette.

There were never any "good old days when men only wore suits unless they were going to the country where they were allowed to wear breeches and polished leather riding boots". That's an awfully elitist and presumptuous statement.

I know my neither of my grandfathers ever owned a suit. Couldn't afford 'em. They wore work clothes or casual clothes. And going to the country? How? The streetcars didn't go there.

Has anybody stopped to think why baseball players wear baseball hats? The brim keeps the sun out of their eyes. When you're indoors, there's no sun to be kept out of the eyes, ergo no need for the hat.

 

[LisaR]

I think you're confusing tradition, and fashion/fashion faux pas, with true etiquette.

There were never any "good old days when men only wore suits unless they were going to the country where they were allowed to wear breeches and polished leather riding boots". That's an awfully elitist and presumptuous statement.

I know my neither of my grandfathers ever owned a suit. Couldn't afford 'em. They wore work clothes or casual clothes. And going to the country? How? The streetcars didn't go there.

Has anybody stopped to think why baseball players wear baseball hats? The brim keeps the sun out of their eyes. When you're indoors, there's no sun to be kept out of the eyes, ergo no need for the hat.

Honestly, I think it is all semantics. Manners, etiquette, traditions, and the rules regarding them are all based on the way things were long ago. Some of those things have stuck and some haven't. My MIL dresses for dinner every single day. She would never wear something casual and feels it is bad manners when DH shows up in jeans for carry-out pizza. My grandmother was the same way. My mom is the same age as my MIL and she considers herself *dressed* for dinner when she has popped her teeth in her mouth! Things change.

There are many different theories on why one removed their hats when going indoors. The general consensus seems to be that nobody knows with 100% certainty why it was first done.

One generally accepted theory is that it began with men of 'lesser rank' removing whatever headdress or coronet (crown) they had on to show that they were not trying to challenge or be disrespectful to the king or chieftain of their country.

Yeah, I'm really not worried about the "lesser rank" removing their hat at Outback Steak House so they don't challenge the higher class patrons.

 

[Elmo9607]

I'm confused about some of these conversations. Are we talking about the people dining with you personally that use their cell phone? If so, I agree. I didn't go out to dinner with a person to have them stare at their phone the entire time.

I was referring to someone dining with me personally using their phone at the table. I don't care if someone at the next table has their phone plastered to their face the whole meal.

 

[mhsjax]

I'm 33 years old, lived in Florida my whole life and until I read this, I never heard of such a "rule"

Who makes this stuff up anyway? and who determines who to enforce it? It seems silly.

If I wear a baseball cap (rarely these days), I won't take it off, because my hair will look HORRIBLE when it take it off. Seriously, it looks terrible, so I've never removed my hat at a table, then again, I don't usually eat at fine dining places either.

As for the phone on the table question....I think its a bit more complex now that everyone has smartphones and they're being used for so much more than "phones". If I put mine on the table, its not because I'm expecting a call, but I do want to keep up to date on certain things that are important to me.

I am 49 and have lived in Florida my whole life. Not only have I heard of it, I agree with badblackpug 100% on the hat issue.

 

[Ceila]

But failure to plan on your part shouldn't give you constitute a need to adapt to you on the part of others, including those with whom you're close. No pockets? What about a wristlet, or even one of those stretchy, cufflike pouches? The latter would keep the phone very close to you but put of sight, and you would absolutely feel it vibrate if a call comes on.

Right, because a wristlet or some other contraption on my wrist couldn't possibly make a mess, knocking into my plate or glass. You really are too much, bless your heart.

 

[MrsDuck]

DFi doesn't like it when I use my phone during dinner and I understand that.

I don't see the issue with hats at the dinner table but that's just me.

 

[Hrhpd]

Honestly, I think it is all semantics. Manners, etiquette, traditions, and the rules regarding them are all based on the way things were long ago. Some of those things have stuck and some haven't. My MIL dresses for dinner every single day. She would never wear something casual and feels it is bad manners when DH shows up in jeans for carry-out pizza. My grandmother was the same way. My mom is the same age as my MIL and she considers herself *dressed* for dinner when she has popped her teeth in her mouth! Things change.

There are many different theories on why one removed their hats when going indoors. The general consensus seems to be that nobody knows with 100% certainty why it was first done.

One generally accepted theory is that it began with men of 'lesser rank' removing whatever headdress or coronet (crown) they had on to show that they were not trying to challenge or be disrespectful to the king or chieftain of their country.

Yeah, I'm really not worried about the "lesser rank" removing their hat at Outback Steak House so they don't challenge the higher class patrons.

You may have not been taught certain etiquette protocol, so may be unfamiliar with the socalled rules. However, that does not mean that the rule does not exist or is antiquated.

The great thing about etiquette is that it is voluntary. Choose to follow it or not. Coco Chanel was famous for ignoring the no white after labor day in her collections. And she did ok as a designer with no harm to others.

The only thing one has to be aware of if they choose not to adhere to social norms, is that you will be judged by many, if not the majority. But if you could care less what the biddy at the next table thinks, then all is good.

However, where you don't want to be judged are things like job interviews. So, it is at least prudent to know the social rules, even if you do not always choose to adhere or agree. We are pretty easy going, but my kids will at least know proper etiquette just in case they are ever put in a position where it really does matter.

 

[LisaR]

You may have not been taught certain etiquette protocol, so may be unfamiliar with the socalled rules. However, that does not mean that the rule does not exist or is antiquated.

The great thing about etiquette is that it is voluntary. Choose to follow it or not. Coco Chanel was famous for ignoring the no white after labor day in her collections. And she did ok as a designer with no harm to others.

The only thing one has to be aware of if they choose not to adhere to social norms, is that you will be judged by many, if not the majority. But if you could care less what the biddy at the next table thinks, then all is good.

However, where you don't want to be judged are things like job interviews. So, it is at least prudent to know the social rules, even if you do not always choose to adhere or agree. We are pretty easy going, but my kids will at least know proper etiquette just in case they are ever put in a position where it really does matter.

Where did these rules come from and who has decided that these rules are still in effect? Don't say that society has decided because as you can see from this thread, many would disagree with this "rule."

Most people I know teach their children common sense. This includes teaching them about their appearance during a job interview. Since there aren't any written in concrete rules one must follow when interviewing, some choose to give a common sense approach. Advice like, "You aren't eating at Outback. You are going on a job interview. Those flip flops, tank tops, and that hat are out of the question on an interview." My kids may not be as smart as some of the other Dis kids but even they get it.

 

[Hrhpd]

Where did these rules come from and who has decided that these rules are still in effect? Don't say that society has decided because as you can see from this thread, many would disagree with this "rule."

Most people I know teach their children common sense. This includes teaching them about their appearance during a job interview. Since there aren't any written in concrete rules one must follow when interviewing, some choose to give a common sense approach. Advice like, "You aren't eating at Outback. You are going on a job interview. Those flip flops, tank tops, and that hat are out of the question on an interview." My kids may not be as smart as some of the other Dis kids but even they get it.

You just keep telling yourself that social norms and etiquette don't exist. Good luck with that.

 

[Talking Hands]

One reason to have a phone on the table is so I can text my husband who is right in front of when all the people around us are so loud we can't hear each other. Also I have used it to order a meal at a restaurant when I was at a Silent Weekend. No voice allowed only sign language with each other and we had to figure out how to order our meals without using our voicces.

 

[LisaR]

You just keep telling yourself that social norms and etiquette don't exist. Good luck with that.

Give me a break. Please show me where on earth I said that? I said that wearing a hat at McDonalds or Outback is quite different than wearing a hat on a job interview. But hey, if you want to spend your time out with your family counting all the hats on people's heads and thinking you are so much better than all the rest, have at it. I would rather focus on the people I am with and enjoy their company instead of worrying about what the people at the table next to me are wearing on their head or playing on their phone.

 

[badblackpug]

Give me a break. Please show me where on earth I said that? I said that wearing a hat at McDonalds or Outback is quite different than wearing a hat on a job interview. But hey, if you want to spend your time out with your family counting all the hats on people's heads and thinking you are so much better than all the rest, have at it. I would rather focus on the people I am with and enjoy their company instead of worrying about what the people at the table next to me are wearing on their head or playing on their phone.

I think the point that HRHPD is trying to make (and I agree) is that regardless of the origin of this social norm, and regardless of whether it is one that you choose to follow, it does exist. Again, I am not old, and I don't live in some sort of high cultural Mecca, but I will tell you, that in my entire life, I have never met a man (from my father, to my 1st and present husband, to my 11 year old son) who does not know that it is considered an etiquette no-no (dare I use the word rude?) to wear a hat indoors, much less at the table.

You can tell yourself that it is outdated, that it doesn't matter at certain establishments, but the social norm is still that hats aren't worn indoors (again, exclusive of religious observance or uniform)

...and for a PP that was worried about hat head... my ex had hair. He also frequently wore a ball cap. What he would do when we entered a restaurant (yes even Applebee's or Friday's) he would immediately go to the men's room and remove his cap and comb his hair.

If you choose to ignore this custom, that is fine, it is certainly your choice, but there will be people who find it rude or offensive, or think that you (general you) are ill-mannered or poorly raised. Again, it would be just as ill-mannered to point this out to a stranger, but there are people who would think this way. Again, if you don't care what others think, then carry on.

...and this overlooking of etiquette and social norms does permeate into other areas. People do show up for a lot of things dressed inappropriately. I see a lot of people who do not have nice table manners. Who eat with their mouth open, or their elbows on the table, who do not use a napkin or push their food onto their fork with their hand. A lot of people no longer say please and thank you, or hold doors for others. Or say excuse me. Whether they are just ignorant of these facts, or don't care, or think these customs are outdated, I don't know.

Again, everyone is welcome to do whatever they please in their own life with their own families. He we teach that hats aren't worn indoors. That phones are put away during meals. That doors are held, Table manners are important. Bus seats are given up, and we say please and thank you, and pardon me.

Again, this is my attempt to carve an easier path for my children. As I said before, I would rather everyone thought that they were overly polite ot that we were overly strict and old-fashioned, then anyone think that they were rude or disrespectful.

 

[cornflake]

As pointed out by others before I got here, most of the list is fashion, not etiquette, and there's a difference. Stuff like white after Labour Day is just fashion, it has nothing to do with respect or manners.

Black or very dark colours at a funeral, I think yes, most people do, same as, though it wasn't your example, women NOT wearing white to a wedding.

The glove thing is the most interesting line walker on your list to me - it is more fashion than respect - you're also meant to doff your hat to a woman, no one doffs gloves, (you do slap with them to challenge someone to a duel) however, gloves themselves are pretty much obsolete in day-to-day life.

Same as the rules regarding ladies handkerchiefs have gone by the wayside as women stopped carrying them, the rules for gloves become moot when people stopped wearing gloves in general.

People still, however, wear hats. In courtrooms, men are expected to remove them; in proper restaurants, men are expected to remove them, etc. It is what it is.

Honestly, like the table manners thread, the most interesting aspect to me is the reverse snobbery.

One reason to have a phone on the table is so I can text my husband who is right in front of when all the people around us are so loud we can't hear each other. Also I have used it to order a meal at a restaurant when I was at a Silent Weekend. No voice allowed only sign language with each other and we had to figure out how to order our meals without using our voicces.

I'm sorry, I can't help myself. If, as your sig and all indicates, you're deaf - why not just sign?

Also, just out of curiosity, what's a silent weekend? Is that like a Galludent summer immersion, just for the weekend?

 

[badblackpug]

As pointed out by others before I got here, most of the list is fashion, not etiquette, and there's a difference. Stuff like white after Labour Day is just fashion, it has nothing to do with respect or manners.

Black or very dark colours at a funeral, I think yes, most people do, same as, though it wasn't your example, women NOT wearing white to a wedding.

The glove thing is the most interesting line walker on your list to me - it is more fashion than respect - you're also meant to doff your hat to a woman, no one doffs gloves, (you do slap with them to challenge someone to a duel) however, gloves themselves are pretty much obsolete in day-to-day life.

Same as the rules regarding ladies handkerchiefs have gone by the wayside as women stopped carrying them, the rules for gloves become moot when people stopped wearing gloves in general.

People still, however, wear hats. In courtrooms, men are expected to remove them; in proper restaurants, men are expected to remove them, etc. It is what it is.

Honestly, like the table manners thread, the most interesting aspect to me is the reverse snobbery.



I'm sorry, I can't help myself. If, as your sig and all indicates, you're deaf - why not just sign?

Also, just out of curiosity, what's a silent weekend? Is that like a Galludent summer immersion, just for the weekend?

I don't know about silent weekend, but if the waiter/waitress can't sign then using ASL to order would be pretty useless.

A lot of hearing impaired people text on their phone to communicate with hearing people who don't know how to sign. It's more convenient than writing notes.

My father was hearing impaired. If there is a lot of background noise people with partial hearing often have a difficult time understanding what someone is saying to them. Fortunately my father read lips really, really well, but this was a complaint of his when he had to follow a conversation with more than one person.

 

[cornflake]

I don't know about silent weekend, but if the waiter/waitress can't sign then using ASL to order would be pretty useless.

A lot of hearing impaired people text on their phone to communicate with hearing people who don't know how to sign. It's more convenient than writing notes.

My father was hearing impaired. If there is a lot of background noise people with partial hearing often have a difficult time understanding what someone is saying to them. Fortunately my father read lips really, really well, but this was a complaint of his when he had to follow a conversation with more than one person.

Oh, no, sorry, guess I wasn't clear! I got the texting waitstaff part (or rather typing on the phone as nouveau note writing, as you note), that makes sense - I was just curious about what silent weekend was.

The 'why not just sign' thing was because she said she keeps her phone on the table sometimes to text her husband, sitting across from her, if it's loud. Which makes me presume he's hearing but still seems signing would be simpler!

 

[badblackpug]

Oh, no, sorry, guess I wasn't clear! I got the texting waitstaff part - that I was just curious about what silent weekend was.

The 'why not just sign' thing was because she said she keeps her phone on the table sometimes to text her husband, sitting across from her, if it's loud. Which makes me presume he's hearing but still seems signing would be simpler!

LOL okay, good point. Unless he doesn't sign? (which would be weird to me, but it is not unheard of that family members of the hearing impaired can't sign)

...and I haven't heard of "silent weekend" either.

 

[leebee]

I think both are rude. To me, the phone on the table just says "I might be getting a better offer, so I'm gonna be ready just in case." Even if the ringer is off, it's distracting to the persons dinner party--every time the screen lights up, the eyes drift down to the screen, effectively telegraphing to the table mates that whatever they have to say isn't nearly as interesting as what may possibly be on the screen. If you're a doctor or someone who needs to have contact every second of the day(which would be very few of us) that's acceptable. Otherwise, put the phone in your pocket or purse for the 1 hour it takes to finish the meal.

And don't get me started on hats. Unless there is a religious restriction or medical problem that requires the hat to remain on the head, those hats need to come off as soon as they enter the building.

Just my 2 cents

 

[kaytieeldr]

Right, because a wristlet or some other contraption on my wrist couldn't possibly make a mess, knocking into my plate or glass. You really are too much, bless your heart.

I think it's unreasonable for you to talk down to me simply because you can't avoid making a mess at the table with an elastic cuff on your wrist

Where did these rules come from and who has decided that these rules are still in effect? Don't say that society has decided because as you can see from this thread, many would disagree with this "rule."

Google is your friend. One source says etiquette dates back to 17th and 18th century France; another says etiquette's as old as society itself.

It may surprise you to learn the DIS isn't a microcosm of society. Simply because posters here haven't heard of, or don't believe in, or refuse to follow, or pick and choose from the rules of etiquette doesn't mean society as a whole disregards said rules.

Etiquette definition: Noun: The customary code of polite behavior in society or among members of a particular profession or group. Now, if you object to polite behavior, I guess there's nothing the rest of us can do about that

...and for a PP that was worried about hat head... my ex had hair. He also frequently wore a ball cap. What he would do when we entered a restaurant (yes even Applebee's or Friday's) he would immediately go to the men's room and remove his cap and comb his hair.

Comb his hair to resolve 'hat head'? What a novel idea - planning ahead by carrying a comb! I think it's genuinely funny, how so many people claim concern about 'hat head' in front of loved ones, or strangers they'll never see again (and you have their own concerns).

If you choose to ignore this custom, that is fine, it is certainly your choice, but there will be people who find it rude or offensive, or think that you (general you) are ill-mannered or poorly raised

oh, yeah, this. I meant to mention earlier: sometimes a stroke or other medical condition will affect the part of the brain that filters what we say. If one of those people is also one who finds it rude/offensive that a hat is worn indoors, and speaks their mind...

 

[cornflake]

LOL okay, good point. Unless he doesn't sign? (which would be weird to me, but it is not unheard of that family members of the hearing impaired can't sign)

...and I haven't heard of "silent weekend" either.

I guess - I've never heard of a significant other of a deaf person who doesn't sign (when the deaf person does, which given the sig, again, I'm presuming), unless the person went deaf very late in life after the start of the relationship? Still would seem weird to me I guess, though to each his or her own, I wasn't criticizing, just trying to figure it out.

The only immediate family members I've known or heard of who didn't sign when there was a deaf person in the same house who did as their native/primary language were in cases of parents wanting a strict oral education and the deaf children ending up going to manual when they could, type of thing.

 

[cornflake]

Server says.... double post!