NancyDVC - you're correct about the water. It is just that!!! I actually was watching a show on the Food Network about pizza, and it was talking about how you can't get good pizza outside of NY. Well, a gentleman in LA is trying to replicate NYC water to get his dough as close to NYC dough as possible. He installed a VERY expensive tretment process in his restaurant to get the water as chemically equivalent to NYC water as possible. He thinks it works, but me, I'll take any NYC bagel anyway, even the supposed "bad" ones you can get in the hotel quick cafe over any other bagels!!! Here in NJ, the bagels aren't nearly as good, but if you go to a good bagel shop they're not bad. Also, water differencials is the reason french pastries and breads are so much better in France then here. At the Paris in Las Vegas, they actually have their water and ingredients flown in from France to try to replicate as much as possible in their French pastry store. Since Florida water is NOTORIOUSLY bad, I try to stay away from things that water is essential for, like breads and pizzas (a prime reason the pizza in WDW is also horrible!) The bagels in all of Florida ( I have family in different parts) are just hard and EXTREMELY chewey frisbees to me!!!