Avian Flu - How bad could it get?

[KelNottAt]

I have a bird flu question…

Can anyone tell me if I heard this right: The young and healthy among us will be most at risk when the flu strikes. That’s because this virus turns an immune system against the body’s own organs. Therefore, a strong (young/healthy) immune system becomes the most aggressive and quickest killer. Almost like a self-induced chemotherapy attacking healthy cells. The news report I heard (only partially, sorry) said this was why the 1918 flu victims were mostly young adults.

As the mother of 2 ‘tweens, this concept is the most frightening of all to me.

 

[Christine]

I have a bird flu question…

Can anyone tell me if I heard this right: The young and healthy among us will be most at risk when the flu strikes. That’s because this virus turns an immune system against the body’s own organs. Therefore, a strong (young/healthy) immune system becomes the most aggressive and quickest killer. Almost like a self-induced chemotherapy attacking healthy cells. The news report I heard (only partially, sorry) said this was why the 1918 flu victims were mostly young adults.

As the mother of 2 ‘tweens, this concept is the most frightening of all to me.

There is really no way to predict how any new strain of flu will behave--will it be virulent by the time it hits humans or mild?

But you are correct that the WORST cases during the 1918 pandemic were in younger, healthy people (20-40 years of age of believe). Those with super-healthy immune systems reacted the worst because their immune systems went on an aggressive attack and ended up causing death, rather than the strain of flu.

 

[DawnCt1]

I totally agree. You said what I wanted to say but much more clearly.



Sorry to keep beating this into the ground. But my point is that most medical researchers claim smallpox immunity doesn't last for very many years, possibly 10 years or less. The researchers felt that I didn't form a scab because I was still very much immune to smallpox even though it had been 50 years since I was originally vaccinated. When I was vaccinated last year for the research project, my body recognized the virus and fought it. More than likely, if I were actually exposed to smallpox (hypothetically, of course) that I had enough immunity left from my vaccination as a child to have little effect. They assumed this because the vaccination last year didn't effect me enough even to form a scab.

Again, your experience isn't typical. DH formed a scab when he was vaccinated two years or so ago, in fact, he kept a shield over it because I have psoriasis and there was a concern about him having the vaccination and living in our house. (I allowed him to stay, ) He had his previous less than 50 years ago and he didn't have immunity at the time of revaccination.

 

[KarenC]

I read Barry's book, The Great Influenza, and I think that our government and our health providers ought to be prepared for the possibility of an avian flu pandemic. There's not much I can do, other than stay home if I feel sick, so I'm not overly worried about it.

On the topic of generic drugs, I think the fact that drugs go off-patent drives R&D on the part of the drug companies. If they were assured of a steady stream of profit for their existing drugs, companies would not be financially motivated to find the next great drug. Competition drives innovation.

 

[DisneyPhD]

I read Barry's book, The Great Influenza, and I think that our government and our health providers ought to be prepared for the possibility of an avian flu pandemic. There's not much I can do, other than stay home if I feel sick, so I'm not overly worried about it.

On the topic of generic drugs, I think the fact that drugs go off-patent drives R&D on the part of the drug companies. If they were assured of a steady stream of profit for their existing drugs, companies would not be financially motivated to find the next great drug. Competition drives innovation.

I agree with you 100%! You got to the final point much faster then I did!

 

[mafibisha]

I think the fact that drugs go off-patent drives R&D on the part of the drug companies. If they were assured of a steady stream of profit for their existing drugs, companies would not be financially motivated to find the next great drug. Competition drives innovation.

How could anyone think its solely financially motivated???? Not everyone in life is motivated by money!!!! Have you never lost someone to disease?? There ARE wonderful people who work for a greater common good - to find CURES for YOUR ILLNESSES - we're not talking about companies making the latest superficial MUST-HAVEs like trendy clothes, cars or plasma tv!!

We're talking about CREATING MIRACLE drugs that extend and SAVE LIVES!!!! Sooner or later, YOUR LIFE.

Its easy to think you have all the answers, until it's your mom, child or YOURSELF that is CURED by a miracle drug. Drug companies (who CREATE and not COPY) are PRICELESS and deserve to be profitable! A whole lot more than ANY other consumer good out there!!!!!

Some of the smugness here is astonishing; i have news for you, something is gonna eventually get ya in life, no one is immune to illness!

I truly hope your kids and grandkids will have new MIRACLE meds created for their generations. That will NOT happen if the whole world goes generic. Profits keep the pipeline of new meds going. Profits end, new life saving drugs end. Its very simple.

THINK ABOUT IT.

 

[lsyorke]

How could anyone think its solely financially motivated???? Not everyone in life is motivated by money!!!! Have you never lost someone to disease?? There ARE wonderful people who work for a greater common good - to find CURES for YOUR ILLNESSES - we're not talking about companies making the latest superficial MUST-HAVEs like trendy clothes, cars or plasma tv!!

We're talking about CREATING MIRACLE drugs that extend and SAVE LIVES!!!! Sooner or later, YOUR LIFE.

Its easy to think you have all the answers, until it's your mom, child or YOURSELF that is CURED by a miracle drug. Drug companies (who CREATE and not COPY) are PRICELESS and deserve to be profitable! A whole lot more than ANY other consumer good out there!!!!!

Some of the smugness here is astonishing; i have news for you, something is gonna eventually get ya in life, no one is immune to illness!

I truly hope your kids and grandkids will have new MIRACLE meds created for their generations. That will NOT happen if the whole world goes generic. Profits keep the pipeline of new meds going. Profits end, new life saving drugs end. Its very simple.

THINK ABOUT IT.

So what new meds have we seen lately that aren't variations of a previous med? Miracle drugs are few and far between since alot of the drugs that are being released are done so since they "appeal" to a large part of the population. The major pharmaceutical companies get around the "generic" problem. They remarket the same drug with a new binder and get exclusivity all over again. Then they market this new form as a "new and improved" version of the same drug. Paxil... Paxil CR, wellbutrin.. wellbutrin sr... wellbutrin xl, Prozac... prozac XR, Xanax...Xanax XR, Prilosec... Nexium, Ambien... Ambien CR. I don't have a problem with a profit being made, but to make out these companies as life savers due to the R&D aspect is ridiculous. It has come from their own mouths that they won't develop a new drug that doesn't have mass appeal.
Now don't even get me on the suppression of clinical trial data!!

 

[KarenC]

How could anyone think its solely financially motivated???? Not everyone in life is motivated by money!!!! Have you never lost someone to disease?? There ARE wonderful people who work for a greater common good - to find CURES for YOUR ILLNESSES - we're not talking about companies making the latest superficial MUST-HAVEs like trendy clothes, cars or plasma tv!!

Most major drug companies are publicly held. They have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to maximize profit. All publicly held corporations are, by their nature, primarily motivated by money. They have to be--it's the law. That's not to say that some publicly held corporations don't do good things. But it is hard to justify R&D to shareholders when there is a low ratio of hits to misses. The fact that these companies face steep price competition on some of their best selling drugs helps them justify their R&D efforts.

A good example of where competition has fostered innovation is the telecommunications industry. The breakup of AT&T brought us low calling rates and lots of new telecommunications technology, most of which would not have happened if AT&T had remained a monopoly.

If patents didn't expire, their holders would have a monopoly on that treatment and monopolistic businesses are rarely innovative.

 

[rockin_rep]

If patents didn't expire, their holders would have a monopoly on that treatment and monopolistic businesses are rarely innovative.

You know what IS innovative? When a loved one is ill with cancer or other disease. Disease doesn't care if you're a scientist, physicaian, business exec. ditch digger.

Many of you are missing the point.

The point is this: ***Drug Companies CREATE - Generic Houses COPY***

When you are newly diagnosed, or your new baby or future grandchild, what will you do? You will ask: WHAT CAN I DO OR TAKE TO MAKE ME BETTER?

At that point i guarantee you'll be DAMN GLAD there are drug companies out there MAKING A PROFIT so that YOUR loved one has a chance to live! You won't say, "Oh, i can't get that RX filled because its not in Generic and drugs are too expensive."

Like others have said, finding a drug to cure my loved one, or even extend their life, is priceless. I don't give a darn how much a company would profit if it saved my loved one!

 

[yeartolate]

Give it a rest for a second.

Generics need to exist. If everybody is so concerned about new drugs being created, think of the folks with major illnesses (or heck, minor ones) that cannot afford name brands. Generics are lifesavers as well - unless you don't care about lower income folks who scape by to make a house payment or rent - or just to feed the kids. So please, do not act like generics are evil. If my mother used soley brand name, her COPAY for her drugs every month would be well in excess of $1000. She is on a fixed income and luckily her copays are nearer to $200 a month - thanks to generics.

Of course name brand pharmaceutical companies need to hike up their costs to cover past and future developement of new drugs. That is a huge "well DUH!". But most regular folks with multiple health issues cannot afford to have their entire pharmaceutical regimen to be brand - so they go to the tried and true meds as generics. What is the problem with this. Are folks trying to say that only the affluent folks are entitled to their prescriptions and the others who can only afford generic are immoral because they do not support R and D?

I just am not understanding the anger.

Ans P.S.....which private drug company would survive if its' bottom line was not profit? That does not mean that the staff behind the profit is not morally, emotionally, and ethically engaged in their endeavors.

By the way, every ER MD (with any skill and insight) can tell you scores of stories where patients died or were needlessly admitted to the hospital becuase they couldn't afford their $6/pill prescription.

Step back and look at a bigger picture for a moment.

 

[golfgal]

If we did name brands for all of our meds if generics were/are available, our insurance doesn't cover them at all. If we had to pay out of pocket for 100% of our meds for our family it would be about $1000/month. Our copays as it is are about $200/month THANKS to generics.

Drug companies DON'T create drugs out of the goodness of their hearts. They create drugs to make money, period, end of story. Drug companies figure into their P&L's with a drug the "life expectancy" of that drug to bring them a profit. THEY recognize the fact that in 15 years they won't be making money off that drug. They PLAN for that with their pricing. They are not losing money when you buy generics. They are not expecting to MAKE money on the drugs after 15 years. Businesses do this all the time. They depreciated their assets and the drug companies depreciate their patent. Pharmaceutical companies are still making HUGE profits and while we would LIKE to think that all of that is going into research, it is not, it is going into the pockets of their shareholders because back to my first paragraph, drug companies make drugs to make money, period, end of story.

 

[Papa Deuce]

If we did name brands for all of our meds if generics were/are available, our insurance doesn't cover them at all. If we had to pay out of pocket for 100% of our meds for our family it would be about $1000/month. Our copays as it is are about $200/month THANKS to generics.

Drug companies DON'T create drugs out of the goodness of their hearts. They create drugs to make money, period, end of story. Drug companies figure into their P&L's with a drug the "life expectancy" of that drug to bring them a profit. THEY recognize the fact that in 15 years they won't be making money off that drug. They PLAN for that with their pricing. They are not losing money when you buy generics. They are not expecting to MAKE money on the drugs after 15 years. Businesses do this all the time. They depreciated their assets and the drug companies depreciate their patent. Pharmaceutical companies are still making HUGE profits and while we would LIKE to think that all of that is going into research, it is not, it is going into the pockets of their shareholders because back to my first paragraph, drug companies make drugs to make money, period, end of story.

Not only correct, but what I was too lazy to type!

 

[DawnCt1]

Just a thought. Drug companies can make a profit, worry about the bottom line and concern for their shareholders and still be dedicated, devoted, committed, moral and honest in their endeavors. How many doctors, nurses, firemen, police, social workers, therapists, etc, etc, WHO ALL LOVE THEIR JOBS, could afford to go to work if they didn't get paid. There is nothing immoral about making a profit.

 

[DisneyPhD]

Just a thought. Drug companies can make a profit, worry about the bottom line and concern for their shareholders and still be dedicated, devoted, committed, moral and honest in their endeavors. How many doctors, nurses, firemen, police, social workers, therapists, etc, etc, WHO ALL LOVE THEIR JOBS, could afford to go to work if they didn't get paid. There is nothing immoral about making a profit.

I agree (as a underpaid social worker.) Actually what many places were willing to pay me it wasn't worth working for (after childcare and other epxences) so I am at home now! Drug companys making a profit they can aford to do many of the vital programs they currenlty do.

I don't really get where people on this thread ever said that drug companies were big bad and evil (some media yes, but not here.) I agree that both have their place (generic and padented drugs.) It is a fact of life. If their is an gerntic and that med works as well for you why would anyone spend that much more for it? Most people just can't. They can barely afford the genetic. Also with the new medicaid laws, some meds just aren't covered anymore. If the drug company agrees to a lower rate they will allow it on the aproved list. If not the Dr. needs to call for approval of the med if other don't work.

 

[golfgal]

Just a thought. Drug companies can make a profit, worry about the bottom line and concern for their shareholders and still be dedicated, devoted, committed, moral and honest in their endeavors. How many doctors, nurses, firemen, police, social workers, therapists, etc, etc, WHO ALL LOVE THEIR JOBS, could afford to go to work if they didn't get paid. There is nothing immoral about making a profit.

There is nothing wrong with that. There have just been a lot of posts on here that are saying that drug companies are out to make drugs only for the help they can do to the world and if we buy generics we are hindering that process. That simply isn't true. There are plenty of people that get a lot of personal satisfaction knowing that they helped someone get over some disease with their work, but they sure wouldn't do that without making money and that is my point. A big part of my issue with the drug companies is that they are making HUGE profits, yet many, many people can't afford the medications they need. Some get help, but not many.

 

[DawnCt1]

There is nothing wrong with that. There have just been a lot of posts on here that are saying that drug companies are out to make drugs only for the help they can do to the world and if we buy generics we are hindering that process. That simply isn't true. There are plenty of people that get a lot of personal satisfaction knowing that they helped someone get over some disease with their work, but they sure wouldn't do that without making money and that is my point. A big part of my issue with the drug companies is that they are making HUGE profits, yet many, many people can't afford the medications they need. Some get help, but not many.

The drug companies are making huge profits on some medications and losing their shirts on others. Then consider the R & D that goes into bringing a drug to market and then it fails in the last of the clinical trials. DH has been involved in conducting clinical trials and sometimes the most promising of drugs end up with no promise at all. I have yet to see a drug company that didn't have 'compassionate' assistance. When I was working as an Occ Health Nurse, one of my employees could not afford the $3000 per month for the Kytril for his 12 year old son undergoing chemotherapy. I contacted a drug rep that we knew and after figuring out a way to circumvent the "HIPAA"" regs, we were able to get him a 3 month supply. Because of privacy issues, a drug rep cannot leave a specific medication with the patients' doctor and say; "this is for Billy". The laws that are in place to "help" often end up being a hindrance.

 

[mafibisha]

No one said people shouldn't have access to drugs, thats horrific. No one said the system doesn't work, of course there are major problems.

The point is that generics are not the answer.

People are being short-sighted, going for the easy fix - use more generics. There are better ways than generics because as in other industries, this short-sightedness can KILL an industry.

Think about this VERY simple analogy.

American Auto Industry -
- people buy cheap foreign cars to save a buck (shortsighted), don't look at the big picture.....
- american auto industry loses profit, lays off plethora of workers
- flawed industry YES, but Its INITIAL DEMISE STARTED with people more concerned more about THEIR OWN wallet.
- resulting in snowball effect on economy and thousands of lives disrupted and devastated.

If this happens to the Drug Industry, we're not talking layoffs, we're talking LIFE OR DEATH issues

Others have hinted at this but now take a good look at the Big picture, worst case sceneraio someday in the not too distant future:

--your new baby or grandchld or mom OR YOU are just diagnosed with cancer or any of many life threatening diseases. But oh well, too bad, no new meds are available that might CURE you. Sorry, but no one's working on new cures anymore, you gotta take the old standard. You see, people chose to save a buck here and there in their own little lives, that the major drug companies went out of business. No one is creating new drugs anymore. Its status quo. But gee, just think how much money everyone saved all these years! The drug industry went the way of the dinosaur, just like american auto industry, but on well, think of all the money saved to spend on other stuff -- And oh yes, there's also a new Pandemic Flu threat again, but unlike way back in 2005, when there were drug companies creating vaccinces and cures, we're on our own now.... so it's been nice knowing you.--

Think it can't happen? Fine, don't believe it! And laugh if you at this simple - but profoundly frightening and potentially true hypothesis --- but I strongly suspect that someday, this thread WILL come back to you someday.....simply TAKE A LOOK AT THE AMERICAN AUTO INDUSTRY and you'll see it CAN HAPPEN.

I won't be returning to again to this thread, its frustrating to see people cut off their nose to spite their face.

But it's encouraging to see hundreds of people have read it. Hopefullly it will get people thinking.

"Todays Medicines Fund Tomorrow's Miracles"

 

[DisneyPhD]

The drug companies are making huge profits on some medications and losing their shirts on others. Then consider the R & D that goes into bringing a drug to market and then it fails in the last of the clinical trials. DH has been involved in conducting clinical trials and sometimes the most promising of drugs end up with no promise at all. I have yet to see a drug company that didn't have 'compassionate' assistance. When I was working as an Occ Health Nurse, one of my employees could not afford the $3000 per month for the Kytril for his 12 year old son undergoing chemotherapy. I contacted a drug rep that we knew and after figuring out a way to circumvent the "HIPAA"" regs, we were able to get him a 3 month supply. Because of privacy issues, a drug rep cannot leave a specific medication with the patients' doctor and say; "this is for Billy". The laws that are in place to "help" often end up being a hindrance.

Man Hippa really bits my butt! I remember when it was 1st coming out and we had all these lawyers at my work tyring to explain it and even they didn't understand it. "The law doesn't cover threapy notes, however it is unclear as to just what thearpy notes are!" The wrost part is at least in pyschiatriy we already were very careful about the subject. It wasn't really needed in that case (and many other places that it does impact.) Mostly it just generates so much more paper work for having to sign you understand your rights. I hadn't realized that HIPPA had changes things that way since this week it will be 2 years that I have been home. We used to have drug reps leave meds for certain patients all the time. Can patients still sign up for programs that sends the office supplys just for them? (This was standard in my office.) I miss my patients and my work (and co workers too) but there are some headaches I am just as happy not to deal with any more. HIPPA is one of them!

 

[yeartolate]

I am sorry you are leaving the thread, because you are obviously passionate about the issue.I hope you come back to the thread. I really would like to know (outside of generics) what reasonable help there is out there for folks unable to afford their prescriptions. The one answer that pops into my head would be for the name brand companies to DRASTICALLY reduce their prices for their tried and true off patent medications. The certainly drop them, just not enough. When you are talking a $50 price difference between a brand and a generic for a drug that has been around 10 years or more, the answer for most Americans is a no brainer.

If there are better answers that would allow the general public (not just the upper income folk) to support R and D, it would be helpful, because I think most would agree that it is important


If the industry is being killed by increased generic use, then it is assisted suicide, because the brand name companies have to do a better job at making their tried and true medications more affordable. My mom's copay difference on her monthly meds alone is greater than $800. With one exception, they are all tried and true off patent prescriptions. The "regular" (non insurance ) price difference is probably closer to $2000 a month.

So if there is a better answer out there, let us know.

 

[mafibisha]

We used to have drug reps leave meds for certain patients all the time. Can patients still sign up for programs that sends the office supplys just for them? (This was standard in my office.)

I'm back
Yes they can. There's a post from someone about that below, scroll down.


And here's one more analogy:

Lawyers and the Judicial System. Often insulted and disrespected, often for good reasons. Defnitely major problems in the system, but live in a perfect world! You take the good with the bad IF you want to continue to HAVE the good.

And when you need a lawyer, it sure it good to have access to one.

I don't ever want our country to lose it's ability for new, cutting edge drugs, and it can happen much easier than you think.


"Today's medicines fund tomorrow's miracles."