Auto Bailout Talks Collapse

[Hoodie]

It's my bet if the UAW had agreed with that, then the evil ugly dirty Republican senators would have just found something else. They were NEVER going to vote for the bailout.

They just want to see people beg.

Hope they like American in another Great Depression. Most of those 3 million jobs, which likely have several people depending on them. So how many people is that now whose lives are wrecked....15, 20 million??

FYI - the UAW agreed to the cuts in the House bill, but not until the current contract ran out in 2011. Unfortuntately for them GM will be out of business by then if they keep to that timeline. The "evil republicans" had full support behind the bill that would have forced the unions to return to competitive wages earlier, so you would lose your bet.

The unions walked away from the money. If you want to blame someone for losing your job, look at your union leaders.

 

[happygirl]

I'm so happy that Senate had some common sense!!!

You people for the bailout answer me this. Okay lets say we go ahead and give them the bailout and they still fail. Then what?? The US is out 14 billion dollars. The problem isn't GM the problem is people just can't afford to buy cars right now. Send the US people the 14 billion.

 

[Charade]

It's my bet if the UAW had agreed with that, then the evil ugly dirty Republican senators would have just found something else. They were NEVER going to vote for the bailout.

They just want to see people beg.

Hope they like American in another Great Depression. Most of those 3 million jobs, which likely have several people depending on them. So how many people is that now whose lives are wrecked....15, 20 million??

You know this how?

What was the vote in the house? How many Dems voted against the bill? Where is your angst for them?

Why are the Republicans "evil" because they remained principled in their vote?

Do you honestly think that this bridge loan would have fixed anything and we would not be at this point in 3 months?

 

[jodifla]

I'm so happy that Senate had some common sense!!!

You people for the bailout answer me this. Okay lets say we go ahead and give them the bailout and they still fail. Then what?? The US is out 14 billion dollars. The problem isn't GM the problem is people just can't afford to buy cars right now. Send the US people the 14 billion.

Uh, we have BILLIONS AND BILLIONS for a nonsensical war, but no money to keep people in JOBS!



Where have Americans priorities gone?


Also, many economists agree that letting the Big 3 go under will be MUCH MUCH more expensive than helping them get through a bad time.

But I guess people would rather pay the consequences of millions of people foreclosing on their homes, and more and more banks failing, rather than help people when they need it.

 

[jodifla]

That's not what I meant. My wife works (the accountant) for a glass company and they have union glazers in their employ. The "rule" book is pretty extensive. Some things are just stupid. But to get the contract work (which requires union employees) they had to hire union workers. It's a nightmare. And most of he union workers won't budge. One of my customers has union workers and I service their equipment. Their day ends at 4pm and unless someone authorizes overtime, they're out the door. More than once they would not stay (unless they were paid) for a little bit for me to fix their equipment. Not even 15 minutes (that's all I needed) so I had to drive 200 miles the next day. Recently I was about 10 minutes away (stuck in construction) and it was about 3:45. I knew I only needed about 15 minutes to repair their machine. They wouldn't stay (unless paid) so I had to turn around and drive the 200 miles (round trip) the next day. This is common among the union shops I deal with. Some are fine and will work with you but most are strictly by the contract. I've been dealing with them off and on for 30 years. And I can see how they operate within their own company as an outside observer.

So hopefully you can understand why I don't like unions all that much.

You'll get no argument from me on this! I agree that union rules can be pretty dumb!

 

[jodifla]

FYI - the UAW agreed to the cuts in the House bill, but not until the current contract ran out in 2011. Unfortuntately for them GM will be out of business by then if they keep to that timeline. The "evil republicans" had full support behind the bill that would have forced the unions to return to competitive wages earlier, so you would lose your bet.

The unions walked away from the money. If you want to blame someone for losing your job, look at your union leaders.

Nope. I'll put the blame squarely where it belongs...on the Republican senators, and the Americans who egged them on.

 

[Charade]

Nope. I'll put the blame squarely where it belongs...on the Republican senators, and the Americans who egged them on.

Well, you'd better save some of that angst for the majority of Americans because recent polls were against the automaker bailout. Our representatives were just doing what the majority felt. And I'm sure you were all happy when the majority of Americans voted in Obama. Talk about a double standard.

So... using your logic, if you had to file personal bankruptcy you'd blame the bank for not lending you money if they only asked you to cut some of your expenses? Really?

 

[Tigger Woods]

It's my bet if the UAW had agreed with that, then the evil ugly dirty Republican senators would have just found something else. They were NEVER going to vote for the bailout.

They just want to see people beg.

Hope they like American in another Great Depression. Most of those 3 million jobs, which likely have several people depending on them. So how many people is that now whose lives are wrecked....15, 20 million??

Not true. According to all reports I've read, if the UAW would have agreed to accept pay cuts that would put them on par with non-union plants, a deal could have been reached last night. The UAW needs a reality check. There are millions of people who would love to have those jobs, even with reduced pay and benefits.

 

[Hoodie]

Nope. I'll put the blame squarely where it belongs...on the Republican senators, and the Americans who egged them on.

The blame lies squarely with the unions and management negotiating unsustainable contracts. Had they actually kept contracts in line with the marketplace, they wouldn't have had to go to the gov't for help in the first place.

Handing over a check won't fix the problem.

 

[Hoodie]

Not true. According to all reports I've read, if the UAW would have agreed to accept pay cuts that would put them on par with non-union plants, a deal could have been reached last night. The UAW needs a reality check. There are millions of people who would love to have those jobs, even with reduced pay and benefits.

I'm sure the 500k currently on unemployment and even some of tens of thousands of laid off financial workers would happily take the jobs.

 

[Galahad]

Or the evil evil Republicans who HATE THE AMERICAN WORKING CLASS will just do all their dirty work to bust up the unions, while the rest of the America sits idly by, thinking it won't affect them.

I don't think the Republicans hate the American Working Class. They may hate the unions, which is an entirely rational position to take. The American Working Class, as represented by this union, is shooting itself in the foot. If President Bush helps them dodge that bullet now, they won't dodge it forever.

 

[Galahad]

There are millions of people who would love to have those jobs, even with reduced pay and benefits.

Correct. And those same millions of people can do just as competent a job as well. This is all part of the "reset" that needs to happen for these companies to survive.

The financial companies ARE taking a hit. BOA bought Merrill and will now lay off 35,000 people. But those layoffs are real and will be immediate when they happen - meaning that there are no job banks, severance packages, or long term costs associated with them. The big difference between most of the financial jobs and most of the union jobs is that when someone at the financial company loses a job, they lose their income and benefits NOW, not months or years from now. It's no wonder there needs to be specific consessions from these manufacturing companies. Otherwise, they cannot and will not actually make themselves healthy again.

 

[amyhughes]

Let me ask something here. Would you rather have no income or less income? Because those appear to be your options.

If the auto industry was doing such a bang up job, then they wouldn't be before a Government committee pleading for dough. So, therein lies the problem. As many have stated the Union workers for the Big 3 make MORE per hour (including wage and benefits) than their foreign counterparts, who make cars that Americans are purchasing more of b/c they are better autos. And you still say that b/c some Republican senators are EVIL and their constituents are EVIL that we have some sort of score to settle with the Unions? Wow. This sounds like a spoiled brat's logic to me.

You want to place blame, you want to get rid of some of that anger, well place it where it should lie. Not on the bank for not giving you the loan, but the crappy management (both manufacturing and Union) that got you here.

From now on I'm buying Hondas.

 

[Galahad]

This is from a story today by the AP:

"It seems pretty clear that the only potential provider of the (bankruptcy) financing is the government," she said. "You'd have some period of figuring out the terms under which that ... financing is going to be offered."

In otherwords, they are going to get a government bail out one way or the other. If they get it now, there are some negotiations that can take place. If they get it under bankruptcy then it will all be by "court order" and there will be very little room for negotiations.

 

[JimFitz]

Anyone comparing the financial bailout to the auto bailout is way off base.

Financial system has a future. GM and Chrysler do not have a future. This is a tipping point for the Auto Industry........should be a crazy ride.

 

[ntsammy5]

........should be a crazy ride.

That is definitely an understatement!

 

[mickeysgal]

FYI - the UAW agreed to the cuts in the House bill, but not until the current contract ran out in 2011. Unfortuntately for them GM will be out of business by then if they keep to that timeline. The "evil republicans" had full support behind the bill that would have forced the unions to return to competitive wages earlier, so you would lose your bet.

The unions walked away from the money. If you want to blame someone for losing your job, look at your union leaders.

Absolutely.

Once upon a time, unions had a rightful place in time. Time to let them fade into history. Many, many industries run successfully today without unions. I don't like this bully mentality they're using to strong arm this mess. They'd rather the place went down in flames rather than make the concessions NOW.

 

[jodifla]

Well, you'd better save some of that angst for the majority of Americans because recent polls were against the automaker bailout. Our representatives were just doing what the majority felt. And I'm sure you were all happy when the majority of Americans voted in Obama. Talk about a double standard.

So... using your logic, if you had to file personal bankruptcy you'd blame the bank for not lending you money if they only asked you to cut some of your expenses? Really?

Once the American public realizes they've cut off their nose to spite their face (i.e., once the tsunami of job losses and bank failures they'll bring start coming home to roost, pulling community after community down in a sort of nuclear winter) they'll be just as angry at those senators for doing the WHOLE COUNTRY wrong.

 

[jodifla]

Let me ask something here. Would you rather have no income or less income? Because those appear to be your options.

If the auto industry was doing such a bang up job, then they wouldn't be before a Government committee pleading for dough. So, therein lies the problem. As many have stated the Union workers for the Big 3 make MORE per hour (including wage and benefits) than their foreign counterparts, who make cars that Americans are purchasing more of b/c they are better autos. And you still say that b/c some Republican senators are EVIL and their constituents are EVIL that we have some sort of score to settle with the Unions? Wow. This sounds like a spoiled brat's logic to me.

You want to place blame, you want to get rid of some of that anger, well place it where it should lie. Not on the bank for not giving you the loan, but the crappy management (both manufacturing and Union) that got you here.

From now on I'm buying Hondas.

Oh, Honda, which is SUBSIDIZED by the JAPANESE GOVERNMENT!!!!

Talk about your double standards.

 

[PatsMom]

This is from a story today by the AP:



In otherwords, they are going to get a government bail out one way or the other. If they get it now, there are some negotiations that can take place. If they get it under bankruptcy then it will all be by "court order" and there will be very little room for negotiations.

Even if the government does the debtor in possession financing Chapter 11 could allow for some things that a government bailout without Chapter 11 wouldn't. For one thing, it would be a violation of securities laws I believe for the government to force bondholders to accept less than par value for the bonds. Or to call in non-callable debt. A bankruptcy judge does have the authority to change the terms of the indenture.

Also, as was obvious during this negotiation, the government cannot force the unions to make concessions. A bankruptcy judge can force changes to union agreements - I believe they do try to negotiate but I know several Delta pilots and their retirement was one of the big, big things that took a hit during the bankruptcy proceedings. the ALPA couldn't help them other than negotiating the best deal they felt was available under the supervision of the court. I believe that if the auto workers pension plan is turned over to the PBGC that the union contracts that require the extremely generous health benefits to retirees become void. That is a big savings. The pensions themselves will continue to be paid (subject to the PBGC limits) but the health benefits stop. That is what happened to my mother who was pushed into an early retirement by an auto parts manufacturer who later went bankrupt.

I am really torn on this one - I would like to see our auto makers survive but they really seem to be a failed business model at this point and I can't believe that this loan will really save them long term. GM, Ford and Chrysler need some fundamental changes to how they do business.