Are you sending your kids to school next month?

[Colleen27]

All the drama over having to go to school online for a year, which isn't even that bad, when compared to what previous generations have had to handle is pretty funny. I wonder if the kids that went to school during the great depression, graduated/dropped out to go to WW2 or Vietnam, or were a part of the Polish classes of 1939 would trade their experience for having to attend school via the miracle of modern technology.

I have actually seen people say, in real life, that the kids dealing with this have it the worst in history. They don't even have it the worst in still-living generations.

If I thought kids today would have the option of earning a middle class living with a middle school education, as my grandfather (who dropped out of 8th grade, during the Depression, to go to work) or father (who enlisted as soon as he was able and went to Vietnam instead of finishing high school) did, maybe I'd put some stock in that comparison. But they don't. And I seriously doubt that this crisis, which is disproportionately impacting those who don't really count socially and politically, is going to trigger any radical restructuring of the college admissions and funding circus, much less any reversal of the credentialism and educational "arms race" that has dominated the employment market for the shrinking share of jobs that can support a comfortable lifestyle.

 

[monsterkitty]

Grades are part of it. The other part is the teachers admitting that they have scaled the curriculum WAY back because it is impossible to deliver the same amount of content virtually. States have suspended proficiency testing, because they know the kids will do poorly without test prep. Testing and quiz taking is rife with cheating, since kids are at home and can use their phones during tests. Parents, often with good intentions, overstep and help their kids TOO much, which hurts them in the long run.

Kids are simply not being taught the same amount or level of material this year. Even in the hybrid program my kids are in, the workload is shockingly low, compared to how I remember my own high school classes. Teachers are afraid of overwhelming students, which is fair, but that means standards are being lowered and in some instances, even grading is being changed to make it harder to actually fail, because districts simply cannot have large numbers of students needing to repeat a grade next year.

Even for kids who are smart and able to manage the work, they are being shortchanged and will only realize it later when their knowledge base has holes in it.

We haven't scaled curriculum way back. We also have a plan to help kids "catch up" when we return in January (fingers crossed!)

States have not suspended testing because they know the kids will do poorly. IF they have suspended testing it's mainly due to saving money. My district of 12,000 students pays almost 5 million dollars a year for the state standardized tests. We don't have that money because tax revenue has fallen way off. My state has not suspended state testing so we will be spending money on tests that really don't measure what students truly know. Teachers should never be teaching to a standardized test.

 

[DisneyJamieCA]

We haven't scaled curriculum way back. We also have a plan to help kids "catch up" when we return in January (fingers crossed!)

States have not suspended testing because they know the kids will do poorly. IF they have suspended testing it's mainly due to saving money. My district of 12,000 students pays almost 5 million dollars a year for the state standardized tests. We don't have that money because tax revenue has fallen way off. My state has not suspended state testing so we will be spending money on tests that really don't measure what students truly know. Teachers should never be teaching to a standardized test.

I totally agree about the state testing. I also know that in my own neck of the woods, teachers have wanted to get rid of standardized testing for years, so that is not new to what's going on now. There are plenty of downfalls with standardized testing - its one of the reasons many colleges are moving away from SAT requirements for admission.

 

[monsterkitty]

I totally agree about the state testing. I also know that in my own neck of the woods, teachers have wanted to get rid of standardized testing for years, so that is not new to what's going on now. There are plenty of downfalls with standardized testing - its one of the reasons many colleges are moving away from SAT requirements for admission.

Before they went to the national PARCC testing, my states tests were written at 60% above grade level, 25% at grade level, and 15% below grade level. Now that we no longer have the PARCC testing we have gone back to the states tests that are written at about the same percentages. Parents were all up in arms when their children were getting straight A's but were only "partially proficient" on the tests. Partially proficient was grade level but parents weren't told that.

Tests are administered at the beginning to mid March. We still have 3 months of the school year left, how can they measure students on curriculum that they haven't been introduced to?

My favorite was one of my former students while in 10th grade scored a perfect score on the ACT and SAT math tests but was only proficient on the state test. He went to Stanford on a full ride but was also offered a full ride to MIT. We still laugh about that.

 

[momz]

I love how so many parents are blaming their 17/18 year olds failing a class due to it being virtual... if they can't handle some online HS classes how are they going to handle college? Just in case anyone doesn't know there is a lot more independent studying and a lot less hand holding at the university level. And... some of the classes are virtual...

This is a rather arrogant comment. You are assuming that the lower 50% of students in this class are considering college. Believe it or not, most students don't go to college. Perhaps your school is more privileged than most. I wager to a guess that a large number of these 50% don't really give a hoot about school and don't see value in it.

 

[choirfarm]

nm

 

[mom2rtk]

Re: kids failing classes - what increase in kids failing would you be comfortable with?

Indeed.

 

[Lilsia]

I love how so many parents are blaming their 17/18 year olds failing a class due to it being virtual... if they can't handle some online HS classes how are they going to handle college? Just in case anyone doesn't know there is a lot more independent studying and a lot less hand holding at the university level. And... some of the classes are virtual...

Yes, this. My daughter is a freshman in college this year so she had the remote learning for almost the last half of her senior year. In college, she only goes in for science lab, the rest is remote. She said that it has not been easy, but you just have to work at it. It's a good life lesson. Maybe I'm a bad parent, but I have been telling my kids since they were young that life is hard and that you have to work hard to get what you want.

 

[lanejudy]

Remote/online learning doesn't work for all students. Before COVID, my nephew was already really behind (he's in elementary school), finally got an IEP set up, was being pulled out of the regular class room for 60% of the school day for special assistance in multiple areas, etc. Between March and June of this year, the most he got from his school in terms of special ed assistance was 1 hour a week online in a Zoom meeting with ONE teacher, not the 3-4 different ones he'd meet with throughout the week during the pre-COVID days.

He's struggling. A lot.

It's easy for many people to preach about "MY kids are doing just fine, I don't know why the rest of you are complaining." But just try putting yourself in the shoes of my BIL & SIL, who have fought almost all calendar year to get their son the extra help that he most desperately needs.

I hate to say it, but they need to be prepared to continue fighting for his education for the rest of his public school years. The exact topic changes over time, but there is always a fight for something. I'm so very sorry your nephew lost so much last spring. If the school district isn't providing access to his specialists, his parents need to escalate the issue. There is a formal process -- start with the local school, then the district, then the state. Don't be afraid to be the "squeaky wheel" because it will get them better results than playing the waiting game. They should also look into local advocates who will help them fight for what the boy needs. Once it's documented in the IEP, that is a legal document and they can't change it without justification -- and COVID is NOT justification for losing special ed services.

Last spring was miserable for us as well, or it could have been worse but I stepped into the roles of para-educator and even special ed teacher at times. But this summer I outlined the challenges and insisted on an IEP meeting before school even started. We've had a much better fall. Not perfect, but so much better. Good luck to your BIL and SIL and especially to your nephew!

 

[luvsvacation]

My sons high school has been full time in person all year. My daughter is a freshman in college and lives on campus and has had 3 in person classes and 2 online. She lives out of state but only about an hour away and comes home about half the time on weekends. I’m sure if it weren’t for Covid and more was going on on campus she would come home far less. I’m very glad my kids have still be able to have in person classes. Virtual is just not the same at all.
I can see both points that have been brought up in this thread. No this isn’t something that will destroy our children’s lives, even if they miss an entire year of education. They will go on to have normal productive lives. But at the same time I would be pissed if my kid was one who was missing a year of their education. I don’t see what’s going on with Covid to be enough of a problem to justify shutting down the schools and having kids miss a year.

 

[piglet1979]

those who are a little different, those who are bullied. For them, online learning has removed a problem and is allowing them to focus on academics.

This is my daughter. She has anxiety. The beginning of the school year is tough with so many unknowns to her. Then throughout the year I get calls from the nurse what feels like almost every day because her stomach hurts, her head hurts or really just something hurts. This year she hit the ground running and has done great. Though I do worry that the progress we were making at school will be gone and next year will be pretty bad.

I wish our school board was presented with /working with facts and data. It's pure emotion and anecdotal stories.

This is something that our district is doing well at. They are following the science and recommendations and also trying to get kids in the school. They have also listened to parents. At one point students that chose to do full remote were going to get nothing more then they got in the fall. We spoke up and they changed how they were going to do it. 6-12 are on live with the teachers that are teaching the classes in school to the students doing hybrid. We have been very pleased with our district so far. Our superintendent has been very open and up front with what is going on. We get emails, texts and phone calls to keep us up to date.

It occurs to me though, if all this remote learning is so successful, those who make a living teaching in person school should worry about their future employment. I mean, who needs it, right? Think of all the tax dollars we could save!

This is one thing my mom (a teacher) is worried about. If schools continue with online they would be able to more kids in a class which would mean less teachers.

Yes, this. My daughter is a freshman in college this year so she had the remote learning for almost the last half of her senior year. In college, she only goes in for science lab, the rest is remote. She said that it has not been easy, but you just have to work at it. It's a good life lesson. Maybe I'm a bad parent, but I have been telling my kids since they were young that life is hard and that you have to work hard to get what you want.

We are the same way. My son who is a freshman in high school is failing 2 classes. This is all on him for not doing his homework. On top of a punishment for not doing his homework, we have had several talks about how this will affect him going forward. Not getting good grades will affect how much money he will get from colleges and will also limit where he wants to go. I work for a college access program that gives out scholarships (I work with the scholarship part of my work) I pull in real numbers. We talk about his effort and how needs to put in more effort to do better. I am also a bit more on him and check his work now. His real problem is hitting the submit button not getting the work done.

 

[Orion Nebula]

The district provided last year’s stats as comparison. If I remember correctly, about 1/3 of seniors were failing one or more classes pre-pandemic. I don’t know what the district college acceptance rate is. Clearly half the students are struggling with their online classes, and some would have struggled regardless of the format. Not every student is ready for college at graduation.

1/3 already failing? That kind of changes the numbers due to virtual obviously. I keep hearing more and more parents pointing to similar statistics and saying "see half of the kids are failing also". I know it's very unpopular to call people's teens out but I still feel very strongly that HS age kids are more than capable of overcoming the inconveniences of online classes. Of course that is not in regards to the ones without internet access or computers. But still... I have taken online classes myself. My kids have as well AND one of them is in virtual this year. It may be lacking in quality but my god it's NOT that hard to at least get a C. I am going to chalk this up to lazy teens who have convinced their parents on why their grades are bad. Many of which are livid that virtual is even a thing to begin with.

This is a rather arrogant comment. You are assuming that the lower 50% of students in this class are considering college. Believe it or not, most students don't go to college. Perhaps your school is more privileged than most. I wager to a guess that a large number of these 50% don't really give a hoot about school and don't see value in it.

It doesn't even matter if they go to college or not. What matters is if the (nearly adult) children are able to actually overcome this temporary situation. The kids with the proper resources are capable of doing classwork inside their houses. AND if they don't care then so be it, they would've failed anyways. But this isn't about those kids, this is about the kids who are failing one or two classes and blaming virtual. And then the parents using that as proof that virtual schooling is failing overall. The only proof it is providing is that their kids aren't willing to put in the effort and the parents are unwilling to also put in the effort to help them, even if "help" only means staying involved.

 

[KittyKitty]

States have suspended proficiency testing, because they know the kids will do poorly without test prep.

Just got a message from my School District that I work at, that remote testing will start up in Jan. Most of our standardize testing is in the spring. Tho I think last spring was a no go.

 

[KittyKitty]

But just try putting yourself in the shoes of my BIL & SIL, who have fought almost all calendar year to get their son the extra help that he most desperately needs.

I work for a school district that has had remote tutoring since Covid showed it's ugly face. The students I tutor have IEP, 504, etc. I really feel for your BIL and SIL. It's not an easy process, but keep fighting. It is worth it to their child.

 

[Orion Nebula]

Yuck. I'm hoping you realize how you sound because if you don't you'd get eye rolls from me all day long if I heard someone actually saying that stuff out loud. How incredibly out of touch and generalizing can you be. But it seems to match your other comments so I guess it's just how you view schooling.

I put expectations on all my kids to do well in school no matter what happens, virtual has been no exception. If parents are annoyed by that and want to say "yuck" then we obviously hold our kids to different standards.

 

[mom2rtk]

What's the issue then with remote learning? All of the information that they need, they have access to. No different then sitting in class with your book and the teacher showing you. If you don't understand something, then ask the teacher, they are still right there but on the screen. Any time you don't understand something, you can zoom, email, or text the teacher for guidance. Or you can look it up on the internet. Learning is easier then ever now because you have the information at your fingertips. It's not like it used to be when you went home with your homework and didn't understand it but you had to wait until the next day to ask the teacher. With the exception of special needs students, most kids should be able to learn if they are motivated enough. If you don't think so, then tell me specifically HOW they are not able to do so at the high school level. Because this is exactly what my college aged daughter is doing.

If that's the case, then what are we paying teachers for?

 

[Lilsia]

If that's the case, then what are we paying teachers for?

You do realize it is a whole new world now. With the invention of the internet, I can see how learning could eventually go all virtual. We obviously needed teachers and schools because that was the ONLY way to learn, someone else sharing their knowledge. It's already happening. Virtual college has been a thing for several years now. For it to happen at the primary schools, people's attitudes would need to change because the biggest obstacle is getting the kids motivated to actually pay attention and do the work. Which is the major reason why so many are struggling, too easily distracted. Growing up, my Grandma always said that any child can learn if they wanted to, no matter what their circumstances are. She was right. Teachers are not wizards that somehow magically force knowledge into a child's brain. If that were the case then all students would be getting "A's". It has always been up to the student on what they let in. What teachers do is try to be creative and interesting enough to hold the child's attention so that something sticks.

 

[dreamer17555]

I think there is something in teaching children to be resilient. A lot of that is how adults in their lives model dealing with setbacks and this starts young. Example when a toddler stumbles and takes a small fall they will look to their parent before reacting. If that parent sweeps in and starts making a big fuss the child will cry. If the parents says you are ok and smiles they normally pick themselves up and keep going.

Being behind at any point in life isn't a permanent state. I think if we all started focusing on raising children with resilience and praising effort, not just results, we could teach them it doesn't matter what setbacks, keep working hard and you will get there.

Remote learning is a skill. It has its own unique challenges and, yes, it is a skill that in today's world (if a student has access to the needed supplies) is a skill that will serve them well. Look at how many jobs shifted fully remote in the last year. Remote learning will not replace face to face instruction for many but again, looking at it as a skill students are gaining vs how far behind they are does matter.

We need to reframe the conversation. Imo.

 

[mom2rtk]

You do realize it is a whole new world now. With the invention of the internet, I can see how learning could eventually go all virtual. We obviously needed teachers and schools because that was the ONLY way to learn, someone else sharing their knowledge. It's already happening. Virtual college has been a thing for several years now. For it to happen at the primary schools, people's attitudes would need to change because the biggest obstacle is getting the kids motivated to actually pay attention and do the work. Which is the major reason why so many are struggling, too easily distracted. Growing up, my Grandma always said that any child can learn if they wanted to, no matter what their circumstances are. She was right. Teachers are not wizards that somehow magically force knowledge into a child's brain. If that were the case then all students would be getting "A's". It has always been up to the student on what they let in. What teachers do is try to be creative and interesting enough to hold the child's attention so that something sticks.

I'm aware virtual college has around for a while. My daughter has been enrolled for the last semester and a half. And she'll tell you for her courses, it's just not the same. It's harder to understand the instructors in some of her STEM classes, it's harder when you can't ask questions on the spot. Not everything lends itself well to virtual training. And that's the point. So many different degree programs, so many different learning styles.

 

[DLgal]

What's the issue then with remote learning? All of the information that they need, they have access to. No different then sitting in class with your book and the teacher showing you. If you don't understand something, then ask the teacher, they are still right there but on the screen. Any time you don't understand something, you can zoom, email, or text the teacher for guidance. Or you can look it up on the internet. Learning is easier then ever now because you have the information at your fingertips. It's not like it used to be when you went home with your homework and didn't understand it but you had to wait until the next day to ask the teacher. With the exception of special needs students, most kids should be able to learn if they are motivated enough. If you don't think so, then tell me specifically HOW they are not able to do so at the high school level. Because this is exactly what my college aged daughter is doing.

That's not how it works, though. You cannot just zoom or text the teacher anytime for an answer to a question. They are not usually available. My kids teachers have office hours once a week, for 30 minutes. If you are working on an assignment and get stuck, you might have to wait until after the assignment is due to speak to the teacher. You can email, but they only check email during school hours, so you might have to wait several hours or days for a reply.

Not one of my kid's teachers teach out of a textbook. We HAVE the textbooks, but the teachers create lesson plans and primarily use Google Slides presentations to substitute for lectures. Often, the assignments that would have been in class work, have questions or problems (in the case of math and physics) that were not demonstrated in the slides presentations. So then what? Kid says "I don't know how to do this problem. There wasn't one like this in the notes." In person, a teacher could address this by demonstrating on the spot for the class. Instead, my kid tends to turn to online support via Khan Academy or You Tube, but then often those lessons are not meant for high school and they provide higher level ways to solve, which have not been learned yet. Thus, kid is even more confused. It's a mess.

For comparison, my husband is currently doing a fully online MASTERS degree program, and his workload and delivery system looks suspiciously similar to my son's 11th grade one. High school kids are NOT in college yet, so you can't just expect all of them to be able to handle that sort of learning platform. My own son has an IEP, and has serious executive function deficits. This independent learning situation is a massive fail for him. I have to help him SO much. He is not even college bound because we know he could not manage the workload and amount of independent study required.