Are WE to Blame?

[xie]

I've been to WDW many many times, all for stays of 4-10 days at a time, and all but 1 of those stays were on resort property.

The reason that there's a lot less "magic" spread these days has everything to do with the ratio of staff to guests.

I wait in long lines to do things that I didn't have to wait in line for years ago - like 1 hour to check into the resort on our last visit. (really? an hour? yes, an hour.)

I used to love eating at the table service restaurants, because you could get pretty good food and the service was always very good. Now, the food is mediocre at best (thanks free dining), and the wait staff is uneven at best outside of a few restaurants in World Showcase. Every trip in the last few years, the list of things we are willing to do (read: pay for) has been shrinking, largely because of poor service.

In all honesty, I look around at the CMs at WDW, and I see some frustrated, overworked, unhappy people. The last couple of trips we made, I spent so much time standing in lines that I had a lot of opportunity to observe cast members interacting with other guests. I've overheard jaded CMs saying things on property within earshot of guests that I never would have imagined hearing outside of the BuyMore (for those of you who get the reference, lol.) To be clear, they aren't rude TO guests, but they are often talking within earshot of guests about things guests shouldn't hear. (Last trip, two CMs running the loading area at PoTC were loudly griping about management being on their tails about not pushing guests through the ride fast enough, even though there were so many boats on the track that we were backed up to the first fire scene after the ships, waiting to unload.)

Disney is now overcrowded and understaffed, which is pretty much the normal state for most businesses these days, from what I can tell. Do more with fewer people and hope the guests don't notice the quality decline.

Frustrated, unhappy, overworked CMs don't have the time or the imagination to do all those little extra special magic things that they used to do.

And as long as there are customers willing to pay to experience whatever Disney chooses to offer, Disney will continue to do the minimum required to obtain profit.

 

[Disneyhabs]

Again, no disrespect, ARE YOU KIDDING ME! When I invite people to my house for a party I do not EXPECT them to clean up after themselves, I invited them and when everyone leaves I, and my wife, clean up. When Disney invites me to enjoy their parks, at considerable cost, I should not be responsible for helping to keep the bathroom clean after I use it ( I'm paying the salary of the people who work for Disney who's job that is) I do agree people could at least take their trays and refuse away from the table at QS resteraunts but, if they don't there should be an army of CM's making it seem like that never even happened. I'm sorry but for the most part , when your paying what your paying to enjoy the "MAGIC" at Disney, their should be people to clean up after the people who don't clean up after themselves so you don't have to!

So what your saying then is you are ok with having a party and having cups and plates etc just thrown on the floor or all over the lawn in your yard and it is no big deal because YOU threw a party? I am sure you expect some common courtesy and expect them to atleast put empty paper plates and cups etc in the garbage. I know that is the expectation when we have a party.

 

[EMode]

No it isn't our fault, its Disney's. They are the ones who set the standard long ago. Now their goal is to fill their resorts and their parks to capacity, but with that comes many more guests who expect the standard Disney was known for. Disney isn't willing to effect their bottom line in order to keep that standard up.

 

[Donut23]

And this is why we can't have nice things.

How you throw parties is up to you, but when I have gatherings, I expect everyone to do their part and trdeat my place (where they have been invited to) with respect. Does that mean I don't have to clean up? No. There's always going to be a clean up afterwards, but it's nice when I have people over that are going to help so that I'm not cleaning for days on end.

These are the same basic principles that I follow when travelling. Wherever you go, the property is NOT yours, so treat it with respect. Am I saying to pick up every last plate at a deserted table? No. Am I saying that each individual should have the decency to be able to pick up after ones self? Yes.

WDW is not a place that we own, but our money goes into it (imagine if you own DVC, then you DO own part of it). I would rather have my money going into advancements for making better magic, than having it going to general housekeeping ideals that could easily be controlled by the guests themselves.

It is a privilege that Disney gives us what they do, not a right. If they wanted to take away all transportation service, they could. It's a privilege to get to use it with your stay. As more people abuse the system and abuse the things in the parks, you're going to see your ever increasing admission prices and resort fees go to nothing more than "an army of CMs that make things look like they never happened". Forget about refurbishing the rides, forget about adding new rides or replacing older things, they'll just spend the money on custodial CMs that will come behind everyone and clean as they go.

It's admirable to say people SHOULD be responsible, sadly not everyone will be.

Once we were given our room number before it was cleaned. We opened the door and I was horrified to see how someone had left the room. It was such an insult to my favorite Beach Club.

The reality, some people are just not going to get it. God knows what their homes look like.

As sad as this reality is, it's the reality of the hospitality business now. Disney, Hilton, Holiday Inn, US, anyone who wants to be in the hospitality business must adjust. We can say to ourselves "people should cleanup after themselves". Yes they should and most of us do. Some never will do it no matter how many times we say it.

No excuses Disney. Keep Disney World clean.


Now I'm done beating this dead horse. Was that applause I hear ????

 

[luvthemouse71]

Disney hasn't lost magic. Guests in general are more entitled, and more miserable. If you think you want to give your money to someplace else, then do so.

 

[mom2rtk]

The reason that there's a lot less "magic" spread these days has everything to do with the ratio of staff to guests.

I too wonder if this is the root of the problem. Didn't they have some pretty substantial layoffs back in 09 after the crash? I'm wondering if they enjoyed the savings they made during that time and decided not to go back to their old ratios when the crowds returned.

We can argue around the periphery all we want, but I have a strong suspicion this is the real reason.

 

[pigninnie]

i totally agree with the OP.
and people leaving the rooms/table/bathrooms horrible are just wrong.

 

[xie]

It's not the "things" magic that I miss, I miss the cast member magic. As a previous poster pointed out, that comes from management. At one time, cast members were smiling and happy to help- they were the magic. Now, I feel like a lot of them act more like the guests are nuisances. Some guests are a pain but I think the majority are there to have a good time with their families and don't cause problems. I used to feel at home when visiting Disney but lately I've felt more like an uninvited guest who dropped in at the wrong time.

^^^ This.

I don't care if I get some super special treat magic thing. But for the huge amount of money a week's stay in a deluxe on WDW property costs, they should be delivering at least the standard of service of a three-star, if not four. And right now our last few experiences have been the equivalent of a 1 or 2 star hotel. (The filthy seating areas in counter restaurants are not even a 1 star... the freaking health department should be on their tails about this.)

- I should not have to wait in an hour line to check into a resort;
- I should not have to spend another hour back in that line trying to get room keys that actually work;
- I should not have to clean someone else's mess off a table so my family can sit down to eat.

 

[Fractal514]

I just want to clarify that the main thrust of my initial post is not to suggest that we are responsible for declining maintenance or sub-par service, but rather that special little things that Disney does/did as surprises for some guests may have become unfeasible due to them becoming common knowledge and folks expecting it, rather than being surprised by it.

I have to say I'm kind of shocked by some of the folks who aren't even willing to entertain this notion. It just seems like simple logic to me, but maybe I'm forgetting something or over-simplifying.

There clearly IS an element of this in play as seen in this very thread. The story about the young man who wanted to wake Tinkerbell is a great example. Now, thankfully, the parents handled the situation well, but that doesn't change the fact that this kid was disappointed by not being chosen for something that was never advertised in the first place. Had he not known about it, he would have instead felt lucky to be there when something special happened, instead of disappointed that it wasn't him doing it himself. And that is a direct result of us all sharing these moments and everyone knowing about the "secrets" of Disney.

 

[xie]

I too wonder if this is the root of the problem. Didn't they have some pretty substantial layoffs back in 09 after the crash? I'm wondering if they enjoyed the savings they made during that time and decided not to go back to their old ratios when the crowds returned.

We can argue around the periphery all we want, but I have a strong suspicion this is the real reason.

I'm sure it is a huge part of the reason. After all, as someone else noted, attendance is up 50% since the 90s, but I sincerely doubt park staffing has similarly been upsized.

Anecdote here. One of my family's favorite spots at MK is the Sleepy Hollow counter service place. We loved to go get a funnel cake and a couple of soft serves and have a snack there at the tables under the arbor. It was a great place for a rest break. The funnel cakes were always delicious, and they always had 1 full time attendant there doing nothing but wiping tables (lots of sticky desserts there!), and sweeping kids' spilled food from the floor because the place is a bird magnet. That person was always busy tending the area and keeping it nice, and making sure that the condiments/utensils counter was properly stocked.

Our last few visits, the full time attendant has been gone. Someone seems to sweep through the area occasionally, probably because they are now tasked with keeping multiple areas clean and are stretched too far. They walk in from the area over by Liberty Tree so I guess they have to bus that whole area as well. The tables are filthy and caked with melted ice cream and sticky fruit. You have to beg at the window for a napkin or a fork because the condiment counter is half empty.

On top of that, the staff inside Sleepy Hollow has changed and the quality of the cooked items is now pretty bad. It used to be a bunch of ladies who honestly did a fantastic job with the cooking. Our last few times there, it's been staffed with teenagers who burned the food so badly it was inedible and we threw it away without eating much of it. My family has stopped asking to go there.

So I feel a loss of things at WDW, but it isn't some special magic extra thing where we got singled out for some super treatment. I miss the baseline good service and experience we used to have there.

 

[Mome Rath]

This may be, but how often do you see people complaining about rides being down for lengthy times. Everyone wants all the rides open when they visit, which in Disney's case 365 days a year, but the truth is, Disney is trying to refurbish rides as fast as possible to keep rides open. If people were more understanding to the fact that some of the rides need to go down for the better portion of a year so that the "magic" can be put back into the ride, Disney might be inclined to shut down Space Mountain and layout all new track and so on.

As for the restaurant menus, last I checked there are places that are going to offer the commonplace food items, but there's a very wide variety available. It's all a matter of what you want to spend to get it. You're not going to get specialized 4 course meals for the price of a Big Mac meal at McD's.

As for the general appearance and cleanliness of the parks, yes, there are only so many people on staff, but you know what, finding a nearby trash can (or at least alerting a CM if it's full) can go a long way. There are other Disney parks around the world that are kept in very good condition because the people are respectful of the property they are visiting... It's not just a "vacation trash heap" where they use and dispose where they feel like it.

So as much as corporate does have a hand in the money and magic making, it once again does come back to the consumer. If you treat something like trash and deface it and don't take care of it, why would they want to put the money back into it?

This.

I know this isn't a popular attitude either, but there are also little things we can do to help the situation. For example; yes it is an "automatic" toilet, but how 'bout turning round in the stall before you leave and make sure it flushes? If you have to pick up your dropped paper towel from the ground; grab a clean one and grab the other one someone else dropped while you grab yours.

After all, some of the best Pixie Dust comes from other guests. No, it isn't my job, but it can be my privilege. We all have "off days" and we are not supposed to do anything but mind our own manners, and keep from exploding , but on the good days, I can have fun in the parks and maybe make someone's day a bit brighter even if they don't ever know what I did, or that it was me.

 

[Donut23]

I too wonder if this is the root of the problem. Didn't they have some pretty substantial layoffs back in 09 after the crash? I'm wondering if they enjoyed the savings they made during that time and decided not to go back to their old ratios when the crowds returned.

We can argue around the periphery all we want, but I have a strong suspicion this is the real reason.

I'm going to address this then go away. DH is a 35 year Castmember. Here is how it happened.

Real estate market crashed. Fellow Castmember Bob got his $38 million year end bonus. January began with a 10% staff reduction across the board, immediate, all Disney divisions. Later that year each division had additional layoffs, some up to 40%. It was a horrible year. Everyone was afraid of the next purge.

Each year following budgets for payroll have been cut. Either positions are eliminated completely or staff with many years employment are "urged" to take buyouts and replaced with cheaper "pups" just out of college.

DH gets 1 or 2 buyout packages a year but his VP will not allow him to take them because too many have gone from the department already. AND, he is only 2 1/2 years from retirement. Luckily he is protected with an iron clad union contract and seniority till he can take full retirement.

These people will not be rehired. Staff losses at this level are tremendously stressful at many levels. The happy days of the past just have never returned. Some days DH struggles to find time to leave his desk for the restroom----not meant to be dramatic. They make jokes about each others trash cans as substitutes......plastic makes less noise.....metal sounds like a babbling brook.

Now (finally!) looks like these "retirements" are hitting the executive level with a handful of Grownups from the travel division retiring and positions consolidating. I guess they realized they have cut real people as much as they can. You know how it works. Take the buyout and we call it retirement. Don't take it, we call it termination. Here is a box to clean out your desk. Have a magical day.

It's corporate america today.



That is the view from the inside.

 

[xie]

I'm going to address this then go away. DH is a 35 year Castmember. Here is how it happened.

Real estate market crashed. Fellow Castmember Bob got his $38 million year end bonus. January began with a 10% staff reduction across the board, immediate, all Disney divisions. Later that year each division had additional layoffs, some up to 40%. It was a horrible year. Everyone was afraid of the next purge.

Each year following budgets for payroll have been cut. Either positions are eliminated completely or staff with many years employment are "urged" to take buyouts and replaced with cheaper "pups" just out of college.

DH gets 1 or 2 buyout packages a year but his VP will not allow him to take them because too many have gone from the department already. AND, he is only 2 1/2 years from retirement. Luckily he is protected with an iron clad union contract and seniority till he can take full retirement.

These people will not be rehired. Staff losses at this level are tremendously stressful at many levels. The happy days of the past just have never returned. Some days DH struggles to find time to leave his desk for the restroom----not meant to be dramatic. They make jokes about each others trash cans.

Now (finally!) looks like these "retirements" are hitting the executive level with a handful of Grownups from the travel division retiring and positions consolidating. I guess they realized they have cut real people as much as they can. You know how it works. Take the buyout and we call it retirement. Don't take it, we call it termination. Here is a box to clean out your desk. Have a magical day.

It's corporate america today.



That is the view from the inside.

Thank you for posting. This is what I suspected... as a guest, I look around and I see a ratio of staff to guests that is simply not right. There are lines for things that should have no lines (like resort check-in), a profound lack of maintenance staff keeping the parks clean, and so on.

I know the OP says this isn't what he/she meant by starting this thread, but my point still stands. There are not enough CMs left on property to do all the extra "magic" things the OP was referring to. They're all too busy trying to keep their heads above water because their departments are too short-staffed. They don't have the luxury of 15 minutes to plan and execute a special "event" for you and give you a pin. Many of them don't even have the luxury of an extra 2 minutes to talk to your little kid anymore because there are now 20 guests in line behind you.

Scarcity of staff = scarcity of good guest experiences, whether we're talking about clean restaurant tables, or "wow you look just like Cinderella, here have this pin!" moments.

 

[SpringSprite]

I just want to clarify that the main thrust of my initial post is not to suggest that we are responsible for declining maintenance or sub-par service, but rather that special little things that Disney does/did as surprises for some guests may have become unfeasible due to them becoming common knowledge and folks expecting it, rather than being surprised by it.

I have to say I'm kind of shocked by some of the folks who aren't even willing to entertain this notion. It just seems like simple logic to me, but maybe I'm forgetting something or over-simplifying.

There clearly IS an element of this in play as seen in this very thread. The story about the young man who wanted to wake Tinkerbell is a great example. Now, thankfully, the parents handled the situation well, but that doesn't change the fact that this kid was disappointed by not being chosen for something that was never advertised in the first place. Had he not known about it, he would have instead felt lucky to be there when something special happened, instead of disappointed that it wasn't him doing it himself. And that is a direct result of us all sharing these moments and everyone knowing about the "secrets" of Disney.

I think you've got a great point! I've only been on these boards a few months, and have seen tons of threads about flag raising, opening the magic kingdom, paintbrushes, how to get cards from CM, etc...I never knew these types of things existed before coming here. Granted, I've only been to WDW once since I was a kid, when we went a lot...

I know how aggravating it is when one of my two boys starts in with the "but my brother got it, why can't I too, wah wah wah?" stuff. I guess it's human nature. But hearing that from my kids makes me want to NOT equalize the experience for them even more. I can only imagine how frustrating it must be for thousands to people to be expecting, and in more extreme cases, demanding the "magic" that everyone else got.

So I haven't experienced the pixie dust at WDW (that I can recall), but honeymooning in the Bahamas, my hubs and I were asked if we wanted a ride in a Hummer limo that rode by (we were waiting at the bus stop to go to the grocery store). I will never forget how AWESOME that was, one of the main reasons being because we didn't expect it. Had I read a ton about how Hummer limos will randomly pick you up in the Bahamas prior to the experience, I would have been set up for disappointed had it not happened for us. (Unwillingly disappointed, I don't feel I DESERVE these things at all, but still...I guess it's the ugly side of human nature).

 

[Fractal514]

I think you've got a great point! I've only been on these boards a few months, and have seen tons of threads about flag raising, opening the magic kingdom, paintbrushes, how to get cards from CM, etc...I never knew these types of things existed before coming here. Granted, I've only been to WDW once since I was a kid, when we went a lot....

The cards from CM's is another great example. I'm actually surprised that you can still do it, knock on wood, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were cut. As I understand it, it was initially something done so that CM's at bus, ferry's, an monorails and their terminals could surprise a kid with something special and out of the blue, and perhaps let him/her in on the secret that others have them and could be sought out. Now a lot of folks go down seeking them out initially. This isn't in and of itself a bad thing, but if everyone sought out these cards, would Disney be able to continue doing it? I don't know.

 

[mom2rtk]

I'm going to address this then go away. DH is a 35 year Castmember. Here is how it happened.

Real estate market crashed. Fellow Castmember Bob got his $38 million year end bonus. January began with a 10% staff reduction across the board, immediate, all Disney divisions. Later that year each division had additional layoffs, some up to 40%. It was a horrible year. Everyone was afraid of the next purge.

Each year following budgets for payroll have been cut. Either positions are eliminated completely or staff with many years employment are "urged" to take buyouts and replaced with cheaper "pups" just out of college.

DH gets 1 or 2 buyout packages a year but his VP will not allow him to take them because too many have gone from the department already. AND, he is only 2 1/2 years from retirement. Luckily he is protected with an iron clad union contract and seniority till he can take full retirement.

These people will not be rehired. Staff losses at this level are tremendously stressful at many levels. The happy days of the past just have never returned. Some days DH struggles to find time to leave his desk for the restroom----not meant to be dramatic. They make jokes about each others trash cans as substitutes......plastic makes less noise.....metal sounds like a babbling brook.

Now (finally!) looks like these "retirements" are hitting the executive level with a handful of Grownups from the travel division retiring and positions consolidating. I guess they realized they have cut real people as much as they can. You know how it works. Take the buyout and we call it retirement. Don't take it, we call it termination. Here is a box to clean out your desk. Have a magical day.

It's corporate america today.



That is the view from the inside.

Thank you so much for that inside view.

Fellow CM Bob?

I have long felt that while we all sit around and bicker about perception and entitlement, that there were real changes that did indeed change the Disney product.

I have long had a hunch that if we saw the ratio of park CM to guest 10 years ago compared today, that we would all just sit in shock. And that we would all stop bickering about how entitled everyone is today. But what are the odds of that?

 

[GillianP1301]

Interesting thoughts, OP. I do think the ease of availability of information could lead to unrealistic expectations being set. But, I think the #1 reason for the issues is the sense of entitlement so many people have. It's no longer special to be "chosen" for a parade, tink, etc... an entitled person just assumes it should happen to them and get angry if it doesn't somehow implying that the family that was chosen is less worthy than they are. It's the same mentality of somebody who thinks it's okay to throw paper on a bathroom floor or leave their tray on a table, that's not okay and never has been.

Do I expect excellent service when I'm at WDW? Absolutely. Do I expect to be treated differently than any other family? Absolutely not. Would I be appreciative if I were offered a pixie dust moment? Absolutely. Would I expect it to happen again in the same scenario? Absolutely not.

 

[MrInfinity]

Never thought the paintbrushes were that big a deal, but if lots of folks were running all over the place and then getting upset that somebody else found one, then OK. I believe the wake up Tink thing went away because people got mad when their child wasn't picked. They'd probably have gotten mad whether they read about it on the internet or not. (The store where they did that no longer exists though)

I could see the paint brush thing going away because of the internet. "Secrets" in general are only useful when they're that -- secrets. If Disney hides 20 brushes on the island and some random kids just find them throughout the day, they found a secret. But once some site tallies up all the secrets and publishes them on the internet then it's no longer about discovering a paint brush. It's about a completionish parent dragging their kid there, digging thru the brush, then going "Hey come over here look what I found!". See, it's different when parents sit on a bench and kids roam around and discover something secret, but once the brushes are more about 20 parents rushing first thing for the "bonus Fastpass paint brush system" then the whole system is moot.

You can't really tell ppl "stop posting this stuff on the internet", cuz that's just human nature. You learn a secret? The natural instinct is if you will not be held accountable for it, then publish it for the world. (if someone tells a personal secret, that's different --because then you're accountable for who you tell, you have incentive to respect the secrecy of it).

P.U.S.H. is another example, it's great when it's something you discover and you are surprised. But when you read about it on the disboards and it's on your to-do-list to find and arrange so your DD can talk to PUSH, along w 20,000 other guests, now PUSH is just a mob and is not really the gem he once was.

Same thing w characters making random showings. Like Woody in Frontierland as others have pointed out, now ppl just start shouting Andy and what's he supposed to do. It doesn't work when it's anything but a little-known secret.

I know the general practice is as soon as you discover something, post about it cuz you want to be the one who broke the news and you know if you respect the intent of the secret, someone else wont, and they'll take what could have been your thunder. So anyways. Secrets don't work so much in the internet age. They were wonderful in the 80s because news of them did not spread the instant they came out, it took several years, books being written and published, etc.

The magic isn't gone tho, the magic just has to transition to things that cannot be so easily broken by the internet. Secrets that can be repeated to 20,000 guests daily.

 

[BrianL]

You know, maybe it's just me, and maybe I just don't go often enough, but I just don't see all this decline people talk about. On all my recent trips I have encountered friendly cast members, extremely clean restrooms, and generally good maintenance (I realistically understand they can't keep everything perfect 100% of the time). I have seen people be slobs at restaurants and in restrooms, but I've also seen castmembers almost immediately step in to clean up after them.

As for magic touches, we still hear about them often enough on the boards, and I'm sure there are plenty that go unreported. I have encountered some myself. On my trip in 2010 I was surprised to find a towel animal holding my toothbrush. I haven't had one since, and I don't expect it. It wouldn't be special if I got it every time.

I'm not sure if it's that the Internet lets us know more, but it sure does let us vent when we have a negative experience, and they do happen and always have. Now we see them front and center on the boards all the time. They remind us of when our own visits went less than perfectly. Suddenly we are all complaining and forgetting the good stuff. It's the nature of the Internet.

 

[River Country]

So many thoughts are running through my head....and all i can think of is...if things are that bad and that expensive for some people, then why keep going back? I think that there are improvemnts that can be made in certain things...but lost its magic??? Really??? because of a restroom or not waking up tinkerbell??? ( my dd did get to do that, she also got to find nemo at the store in the boardwalk) both we had no idea about and completely stumbled upon them. We were asked to be in th Jingle Jungle Parade at the AK too. I think the YOMD promotion was what some are still holding onto, magical fastpasses, a stay in the Cinderella suite at the castle, or a DVC membership. I think we have to take the little things as magical, like the look on a childs face when meeting Ana and Elsa, or in my DD case opening a Vinylmation chaser, to me thats what its all about. So I can deal with some minor issues that are not the norm but I am card carrying member of the DVC, TiW, and AP club and will continue to go back every year somtimes more than once because to me there is no place like it ANYWHERE