Another view on FP+

[practicallyperfect77]

True, my prior post was not my best. It was an overeaction to being called sad and tired by someone who knows neither me nor my motivations. I think I have brought valid, reasoned and well-thought out arguments against some of the features of FP+ in hopes that someone who cares might see them and stop to think. Of course I do not have all the answers. Or even a small minority of them. But I am fairly confident that there is a lot of hand-wringing going on at WDW over some of the unintended consequences of FP+ and there will, of course, be efforts to fix them. But to chalk this all up to: "Trust Disney. They know what they are doing" is assuming too much. They are far from perfect.

JimmyV - wanted to let you know that I have read many of your posts and not once have I thought you sounded sad and tired. I greatly appreciate the details you have provided from your recent trip including the wait times you experienced. ITA with your "Trust Disney" statement too. No one is perfect. I also feel saying "it's in testing and will change" is kind of a cop out too. I wonder if we'll ever see the final product or if it will be "in testing" forever.

 

[Ismo]

I think WDW will always be in some form of "testing". It's a park that has always adjusted, amended, changed, progressed, and in some cases regressed.

It's in the core of what Walt Disney wanted. He didn't want the parks to become settled. And consumer demands are always going to change and grow and I'm sure Disney will always make changes in hopes of keeping up with those demands.

I agree that they probably didn't foresee all of the issues that have stemmed from the new FP+ system. And since they didn't foresee this, they don't have a "Plan B" lined up. And it's probably going to take them at least as long to "fix" this problem as it did for them to "create" it.

And if/when they fix it, they'll be on to thinking of new changes to make. It's just in the nature of Disney.

Who knows what this system is going to look like in 6 months, 1 year, 5 years time?

Either way, this forum has been very interesting to read. And there are a lot of informative and interesting views on it.

 

[OtherScott]

It is odd that you would say this in light of the post you made immediately before this one, which was right on point and consistent with what I have been saying for weeks. Disney set out to design a system that would increase revenue by giving people more discretionary time to spend money, and you so rightly point out that they may have done the opposite in allowing people to plan their days by doing less. We can wistfully muse that Disney has some "bigger plan" that we do not know or understand. And that could be right. Or we could apply real world experience to this as you did in your earlier post and conclude that they may have missed the boat here. I don't think that the people who have actually been in the parks and used the system are "blind". They know what they paid for and they know what their experiences were. Tossing all of that out on blind faith that "Disney knows better" is a cop out. I sincerely believe that changes will be made. But just as sincerely, I believe that these changes are being forced upon them due to unexpected dissatisfaction and unforeseen problems, and not because the changes are part of some organic evolution of the product and were planned for all along. For example, I can all but promise you that Disney did not foresee the Expedition Everest FP+ return line backing up to the Nemo theater. Nor did it foresee the FP+ return line for Space Mountain backing all the way out to the elevator of Astro Orbiter. The makeshift signs carried by CMs telling people where to get into those lines were not part of some master plan. They were glitches that someone in a conference room had to admit to when they said: "Oops. We didn't see that coming".

And they probably didn't see it coming that you would book 3 FPs in succession leaving you ample time to go off site for a couple of meals. All in all, there is a lot of blind faith or rose colored faith being applied here to a system that, frankly, wasn't very well thought out. Unlike the prior poster suggested, I am not pining for the return of FP-. There is no point to long for the impossible. But that does not prevent one from having an opinion as to which system was more efficient, equitable or user friendly.

True, my prior post was not my best. It was an overeaction to being called sad and tired by someone who knows neither me nor my motivations. I think I have brought valid, reasoned and well-thought out arguments against some of the features of FP+ in hopes that someone who cares might see them and stop to think. Of course I do not have all the answers. Or even a small minority of them. But I am fairly confident that there is a lot of hand-wringing going on at WDW over some of the unintended consequences of FP+ and there will, of course, be efforts to fix them. But to chalk this all up to: "Trust Disney. They know what they are doing" is assuming too much. They are far from perfect.

I appreciate that you've tried to approach this with reason and light-heartedness. Anyone who would describe you as sad or angry just isn't paying attention.

For the self-selecting consumers on this board and other sites catering to enthusiasts, the boots-on-the-ground focus now is FP+. More specifically, it's FP+ compared to FP-. And the consensus, from all these people looking at it? There ain't one. Koolaid drinkers like it, perpetual whiners hate it, and stereotypes thrive.

This group perspective is formed over a relatively short period of time that includes the worry about what is to come, staggered in-park implementation that saw expired library cards used to secure legacy FPs on top of pre-books, and staggered pre-booking that isn't even implemented for over half of the guests.

Sure there are takeaways that point to some problems that need to be fixed. The law of unintended consequences applies, but so does the law of intended ones. You can extrapolate today's perceived problems when considering what happens when this goes fully live for all guests, but math only gets you so far. Your behavioral sciences better be as strong (stronger?).

But from 30,000 feet, what do we see? Hell, assuming we could see, what are we supposed to see at this point, and what would that tell us about this radical reform fits in with our overall strategy moving forward? New "lands" will get us more people, but is that a long term strategy? Can we connect today like we connected yesterday? Were we even effective yesterday, or were we underperforming and running on momentum and legacy?

Data. Without it, you're blind. And even with it, applying the wrong analysis and drawing the wrong conclusions makes you (not you - in this case, Disney) worse than blind.

I don't know what Disney's data analysis said about the viability and sustainability of it's then-current model, nor what it has identified as trends moving forward. I look at the direction that I think they're moving, see if it makes sense with what is happening in other sectors (like productivity), and then assume what their models tell them.

From what I see, I don't think Disney thinks physical expansion at WDW makes sense without laying some technological foundation to deal with increased demand (why else would you expand?). Step 1, to my mind, is better manage current capacity. FP+ and MDE does that, in theory. This is ugly on the ground for some now, pleasant for others. But it is necessary to have a scalable platform to support whatever new attractions you want to add in the future.

The problem here on DisBoards is that we're trying to reduce white paper material to easily digestible products to be consumed by people of varying degrees of interest, in a manner that does not allow for a real-time back-n-forth that face-to-face conversation would allow.

If during these exchanges you've taken away that I am judging you as a person and not the ideas you've put forward, the fault's mine.

 

[OtherScott]

I also feel saying "it's in testing and will change" is kind of a cop out too. I wonder if we'll ever see the final product or if it will be "in testing" forever.

1) Over 1/2 of the guests still do not have access to pre-booking
2) They'd better be testing it forever

 

[OtherScott]

This could turn out to be the unintended consequence that causes the WDW management team the most consternation. And impetus to change things.

Or and intended one that has you booking additional nights at resorts and additional days at parks...

Pray it isn't an impetus for change (minimum 2 hour blocks between FPs)

 

[mom2rtk]

Or and intended one that has you booking additional nights at resorts and additional days at parks...

Pray it isn't an impetus for change (minimum 2 hour blocks between FPs)

We book what our budget allows already. No way will I book additional nights just to do the same amount I used to do in less.

 

[JimmyV]

If during these exchanges you've taken away that I am judging you as a person and not the ideas you've put forward, the fault's mine.

Not in the least. There are no rights or wrongs here, so any and all reasoned explanations, pro and con are welcomed and necessary. And good argument (in the logical sense, not the irate spousal sense) is essential to critical thinking. I have taken nothing personal from a single word of any of this, (except the sad and tired part).

Whereas some may say that all is good because this is evolutionary and change will come because it has to, others will say that they do not like the fact that change is coming at their expense. That is where the: "Stop complaing. Disney will fix it" attitude ruffles so many feathers. For people who go three times a year, every year, for 10 days at a time, this is a wonderful outlook. For the guest who just finished their once-every-5-year-trip, this outlook is meaningless and insulting. We on these boards have to recognize this. When the chef serves her diners onion soup and tells me that it is a new, experimental recipe, and the comment cards all come back saying that it was underseasoned with not enough cheese, and that significant changes need to be made before this dish is menu-worthy, the diners would expect to be thanked for their contribution to the effort and have the dish removed from their bill. When Disney says that they are testing a system and in the future, it will be much better, but at the same time charges full price for a substandard experience (compared to the finished product), then people will react negatively. And they are right to do so. There will always be bitter feelings when people here say: "I can't wait to use FP+ in October when I go for Food and Wine, and I wish you all would stop complaining", they are failing to see a very real issue. I hope everyone in October has a great trip. I love F&W and wish I could go more often. But that doesn't help the people today who are waiting in one hour long kiosk lines. And for this reason, the "Don't worry. Disney will fix it" attitude can be very grating to many. Even though the statement in and of itself may be true. Perhaps it is grating because it is true.

 

[practicallyperfect77]

1) Over 1/2 of the guests still do not have access to pre-booking
2) They'd better be testing it forever

I agree it's still testing now I agree changes will continually be rolled out (who knows whether these will be good or bad changes....I'm sure it'll depend on the person). I disagree with folks that say others shouldn't complain or voice opinions b/c the system is in testing and will change so we should just wait and have faith b/c Disney knows what to do. Who cares if it changes in the future when the system is affecting vacations now.

I'm trying to plan a once in a lifetime trip for my sis and her family. I love planning but not knowing what we'll have come Oct is frustrating to say the least. I honestly wish I could convince my sis to go to DL instead.

FTR I have tried the new system last Dec. I had MBs only since I stayed at Pop. Luckily I made FP+ ressies before tiers so I was able to FP+ both soarin' and TT. I thoroughly enjoyed my trip (hello Christmas decorations) but def experienced less attractions than I could have if I compare to FP-. I don't get to WDW often so I do think it's a big deal if I can't ride my faves with minimal waits a few times. Guess I'm selfish b/c I want a couple spins on TSM and a couple flights on Soarin'.

 

[MickeyMinnieMom]

For the self-selecting consumers on this board and other sites catering to enthusiasts, the boots-on-the-ground focus now is FP+. More specifically, it's FP+ compared to FP-. And the consensus, from all these people looking at it? There ain't one. Koolaid drinkers like it, perpetual whiners hate it, and stereotypes thrive.

This group perspective is formed over a relatively short period of time that includes the worry about what is to come, staggered in-park implementation that saw expired library cards used to secure legacy FPs on top of pre-books, and staggered pre-booking that isn't even implemented for over half of the guests.

Sure there are takeaways that point to some problems that need to be fixed. The law of unintended consequences applies, but so does the law of intended ones. You can extrapolate today's perceived problems when considering what happens when this goes fully live for all guests, but math only gets you so far. Your behavioral sciences better be as strong (stronger?).

But from 30,000 feet, what do we see? Hell, assuming we could see, what are we supposed to see at this point, and what would that tell us about this radical reform fits in with our overall strategy moving forward? New "lands" will get us more people, but is that a long term strategy? Can we connect today like we connected yesterday? Were we even effective yesterday, or were we underperforming and running on momentum and legacy?

Data. Without it, you're blind. And even with it, applying the wrong analysis and drawing the wrong conclusions makes you (not you - in this case, Disney) worse than blind.

I don't know what Disney's data analysis said about the viability and sustainability of it's then-current model, nor what it has identified as trends moving forward. I look at the direction that I think they're moving, see if it makes sense with what is happening in other sectors (like productivity), and then assume what their models tell them.

From what I see, I don't think Disney thinks physical expansion at WDW makes sense without laying some technological foundation to deal with increased demand (why else would you expand?). Step 1, to my mind, is better manage current capacity. FP+ and MDE does that, in theory. This is ugly on the ground for some now, pleasant for others. But it is necessary to have a scalable platform to support whatever new attractions you want to add in the future.

The problem here on DisBoards is that we're trying to reduce white paper material to easily digestible products to be consumed by people of varying degrees of interest, in a manner that does not allow for a real-time back-n-forth that face-to-face conversation would allow.

Very well said!

 

[OtherScott]

Not in the least. There are no rights or wrongs here, so any and all reasoned explanations, pro and con are welcomed and necessary. And good argument (in the logical sense, not the irate spousal sense) is essential to critical thinking. I have taken nothing personal from a single word of any of this, (except the sad and tired part).

Whereas some may say that all is good because this is evolutionary and change will come because it has to, others will say that they do not like the fact that change is coming at their expense. That is where the: "Stop complaing. Disney will fix it" attitude ruffles so many feathers. For people who go three times a year, every year, for 10 days at a time, this is a wonderful outlook. For the guest who just finished their once-every-5-year-trip, this outlook is meaningless and insulting. We on these boards have to recognize this. When the chef serves her diners onion soup and tells me that it is a new, experimental recipe, and the comment cards all come back saying that it was underseasoned with not enough cheese, and that significant changes need to be made before this dish is menu-worthy, the diners would expect to be thanked for their contribution to the effort and have the dish removed from their bill. When Disney says that they are testing a system and in the future, it will be much better, but at the same time charges full price for a substandard experience (compared to the finished product), then people will react negatively. And they are right to do so. There will always be bitter feelings when people here say: "I can't wait to use FP+ in October when I go for Food and Wine, and I wish you all would stop complaining", they are failing to see a very real issue. I hope everyone in October has a great trip. I love F&W and wish I could go more often. But that doesn't help the people today who are waiting in one hour long kiosk lines. And for this reason, the "Don't worry. Disney will fix it" attitude can be very grating to many. Even though the statement in and of itself may be true. Perhaps it is grating because it is true.

I would expect the chef to adjust if, as you say, all the cards came back saying the same thing. But in our little diner, where everyone really liked the old onion soup, more than a few comments really like the new onion soup. And what if your testing shows that the new recipe will help you maintain cost in the future while complimenting the rest of your planned menu?

Your larger point is taken. Everyone is right to complain about how this impacts them. I'm disappointed with myself when I get drawn into these finer, more personal arguments.

 

[OtherScott]

We book what our budget allows already. No way will I book additional nights just to do the same amount I used to do in less.

To Disney, you're just data. And that's a good thing for you.

 

[OtherScott]

~So, let's just move on!

I already had.

 

[southernfriedmom]

No chance that Disney stops sending the Magic Bands in advance. They want you to begin using them as soon as you step off the plane (for Magical Express). Disney doesn't cancel your ADRs booked using the 180+10 window,so I highly doubt you'd lose your FP+ reservations if you had non-package tickets attached and you cancelled a room-only reservation. And this making a reservation/cancelling at 3 weeks out would have to exponentially increase on an incredibly massive scale for it to register on Disney's radar as something that needs"fixing."

I had wondered this very thing but not necessarily because I'm trying to cheat the system... We are passholders that live 10 hours away and come 2-3 times a year but I've decided to add a last minute quick trip in May for SWW after the announcement of the special SW dining (I'm a sucker). I'm still trying to decide if we can swing staying on site or not. I figured I would go ahead and book a room only now just in case so I could fully use the 60 day window but if I change my mind and cancel with less than 30 days left do you think they'd drop them even though I'd be eligible to make them at that point anyway. I realize this scenario could not have occurred yet but just curious to see if others had a guess...

 

[HWY20RIDE4MYSON]

The point is if you pay the extra money to PH then you should be able to utilize 3 FP+ no matter what Park you are in. I mean if you were to do single day tickets you are able to do 3. I've never broken down the price on PH to a single day at each park so I am not sure the savings or if there is any

 

[HWY20RIDE4MYSON]

If they bumped it up to 5 or 6 then I could see it to work but 3 is a rip off.