Another Sad Thread

[LolaCola]

 

[OneLittleSpark]

Wow this thread is turning.... interesting! I do think that the OP is just looking to stir up trouble, especially after some of their most recent posts! If you want to keep your blood pressure stable, don't go over there for a bit. I am currently defending myself with a sharp wit, and a lethal dose of sarcasm!

Welcome Lola, and please don't judge us all by the actions of a few of them over there!

 

[crashbb]

On behalf of non-doofus head able-bodied people, I apologise for people like the OP of that thread. Based on her recent posts, I can only assume that she is simply trying to cause trouble (why, I have no idea).

I do not think that most posters were suggesting that WDW should do away with GACs or that tie-downs should be taken off of buses, they were suggesting that changes be made to limit abuses. On the other hand, posters here are right - there is likely no way to crack down on abusers without punishing 'deserving' users.

I know that I, personally, do tend to see people with GACs and/or in wheelchairs who are getting on the ride with a shorter wait than I had (I noticed it more at DL than at WDW). However, I totally acknowledge that is, mainly, due to set up - I can see the people that come in and out the exit line whilst I stand in the stand-by/fastpass line; I cannot see the people that are waiting for a special boat/car in other lines. Further, it doesn't bother me that this (someone in a wheelchair, for example, getting on Indiana Jones faster than I) occurs. Seriously, it isn't like that person/family added a huge amount of time to my wait and I can get between rides much faster than they can.

I think that part of the problem in the other thread was that one specific poster got one the wrong side of many other posters (I had no dogs in that fight, but I was surprised at how vicious she got) and thread deteriorated.

 

[livndisney]

I don't reply to threads like that anymore. People who post ugly things don't want to learn anything they just want to cause trouble.

Come to think of it, I don't post much on this board anymore either.

 

[angelbearmom]

I missed the other thread that was mentioned. Can someone refer me to it. I'm strange and like to hear all opionions-even ones I don't agree with.

I agree with those who say that we'd do just about anything if our kids or family member was able to stand in a line with everyone else.

 

[cmwade77]

Wow this thread is turning.... interesting! I do think that the OP is just looking to stir up trouble, especially after some of their most recent posts! If you want to keep your blood pressure stable, don't go over there for a bit. I am currently defending myself with a sharp wit, and a lethal dose of sarcasm!

Welcome Lola, and please don't judge us all by the actions of a few of them over there!

I can only think you are right that the OP on that thread is looking to stir up trouble. I hope you don't mean me as the OP of this thread, as nothing could be further from the truth, I want people to understand and all get along. But I do want to be able to enjoy these things, something that I will not be able to do at Knott's ever again. Unless the policies change again.

 

[disneymom3]

You can click on "this thread" in the OP here and it links to it.

I came over to this board because I am really wanting to hear the other side if you will. I have MS and never really know for sure what one day to the next will bring. We went to Legoland CA recently for instance and I felt great while we were there, though I was very hot. The next day though I could barely move. I am quite the newbie at this whole thing though and want to understand.

I'd like to ask here if it's okay--is the concern with Knott's changing the rules or that WDW might or is the issue that people are suggesting having proof of a disability in order to rent an ECV? I just want to know, other than the obvious few awful posters, if the general idea is hurtful or the specific comments of what to me feels like the minority of people.

Thank you.

 

[cmwade77]

The problem is with the Knott's new rules, your party has to split up, and a lot of the people there thinks this is a good idea, it is not, they don't have to split up to wait, why should we?

The other problem is it is adding another 30-60 minutes onto the wait time over everyone else.

Luckily, by law they cannot ask for proof, which would be a major invasion of privacy, they can ask you to explain your needs and they give a pass based on those needs.

 

[SueM in MN]

I know that I, personally, do tend to see people with GACs and/or in wheelchairs who are getting on the ride with a shorter wait than I had (I noticed it more at DL than at WDW). However, I totally acknowledge that is, mainly, due to set up - I can see the people that come in and out the exit line whilst I stand in the stand-by/fastpass line; I cannot see the people that are waiting for a special boat/car in other lines. Further, it doesn't bother me that this (someone in a wheelchair, for example, getting on Indiana Jones faster than I) occurs. Seriously, it isn't like that person/family added a huge amount of time to my wait and I can get between rides much faster than they can.

I think that part of the problem in the other thread was that one specific poster got one the wrong side of many other posters (I had no dogs in that fight, but I was surprised at how vicious she got) and thread deteriorated.

DL is much different than WDW.
Because DL was built over 53 yrs ago in 1955, it was not built with any idea of accessibility. They didn't expect anyone with special needs of any kind to go to DL, so the lines, boarding areas and exits were built with one idea in mind - to 'deliver' a steady stream of guests to the ride (hopefully in a single file line) and then get them out of the exit in the most efficient way possible.
Some things that make it more efficient for 'able-bodied' people to board make it harder for people with disabilities:

• 
  - boarding in different places than the exits make it hard for people who have to get out of wheelchairs to board the ride
  - moving walkways or stairways are difficult for people with mobility problems or visual impairment
  - narrow, winding lines are difficult for people who can't tolerate being close to other guests (like some with autism)

Because of how things were built and the space that's available, many of the DL attractions were not/are not able to be made accessible thru the regular lines. But, Disney's California Adventure has all Mainstream Lines, where lines are accessible and people with disabilities wait for the most part with everyone else.
WDW had more room, so was able to renovate some of the older attractions to be Mainstream Lines. Some (like some of the Fantasyland attractions) were not able to be. AK and the Studio were built with Mainstream Lines and lines at the other parks were mainstreamed when rides were renovated or new rides were built.

In 1955, people like my DD and the children of many of the people who post here frequently would have been put into institutions as soon as they were noticed to be not "normal". Many would not have lived to their present age.

In 1955, some of the adults who post here frequently would not even be alive. Some of them would not have the amount of 'function' that they have now in 2008 because the treatments for many of the conditions were not available in 1955.
Wheelchairs in 1955 were heavy, not really portable and if you could get away from your house with the wheelchair, there were lots of obstacles. Including things like curbs without curb cuts, wheelchair accessible bathrooms.
Some of those things still don't exist all over. In fact, last June, we went to my niece's wedding in a supper club in a small town. We were able to get into the building, but, when I tried to take her to the bathroom later, we found the we could not even get her wheelchair into the bathroom, much less have a wheelchair accessible stall. The answer we got was that no one who couldn't get out of their wheelchair used the bathroom. We also got a suggestion to just take DD out of her wheelchair and carry her in. In June of 2007!
Accessibility is one of the reasons you do see a lot of people with disabilities at the Disney parks. They know that things are accessible and they actually will be able to do things, rather than just watch others. It is a bubble of accessibility in a world that is not as accessible.

As for some people getting on things faster, unless you actually follow that family around all day and see what happens, all you know is that they got on that one attraction faster.
I've seen a fair number of posts where people apologize for their past comments.
Why?
Because they had an injury, suddenly could see why people said it would not be fair to require a doctor's prescription to rent a wheelchair and that what they thought ahead of time was not what actually happened.
And, most posted that they did get on faster for about 20-25% of the attractions (but usually not that much faster), got on in the same amount of time for about 50-60% of attractions and took longer in 20-25% of the attractions (sometimes a lot longer). And, most post that it's much more difficult and time consuming to get around with a wheelchair or ECV than they thought it would be.

I missed the other thread that was mentioned. Can someone refer me to it. I'm strange and like to hear all opionions-even ones I don't agree with.

I agree with those who say that we'd do just about anything if our kids or family member was able to stand in a line with everyone else.

There is a link in the first post on this thread.

 

[crashbb]

As for some people getting on things faster, unless you actually follow that family around all day and see what happens, all you know is that they got on that one attraction faster.

Sorry, I wasn't meaning to sound like that family got on all rides right away, all day. I was trying to point out that it was easy for me to see that they got on faster, but, in most cases, I wouldn't have noticed them waiting longer to get on - these can lead to the skewed perception that people in wheelchairs always get on faster, which seems to be believed by many. The fact that I noticed them, and that it struck me, indicates how rare it is (or, possibly, how unobservant I am).

 

[SueM in MN]

I'd like to ask here if it's okay--is the concern with Knott's changing the rules or that WDW might or is the issue that people are suggesting having proof of a disability in order to rent an ECV? I just want to know, other than the obvious few awful posters, if the general idea is hurtful or the specific comments of what to me feels like the minority of people.

Thank you.

Welcome. Glad you came over here to see what is being said here.
What WDW is doing is much more compliant with the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) than what Knotts is doing, so there really is not a concern about Disney doing the same thing. The majority of attractions at WDW do have Mainstream Lines. The ones that don't are pretty much not able to be made accessible.

There is NO WAY that they could require proof of disability to rent an ECV or wheelchair. That would be directly against the ADA law.

The problem is with the Knott's new rules, your party has to split up, and a lot of the people there thinks this is a good idea, it is not, they don't have to split up to wait, why should we?

The other problem is it is adding another 30-60 minutes onto the wait time over everyone else.

Luckily, by law they cannot ask for proof, which would be a major invasion of privacy, they can ask you to explain your needs and they give a pass based on those needs.

I agree that one of the problems with Knott's new rules is that they are splitting parties up, which is not comparable treatment. It's not fair to anyone to require them to wait in separate places from the rest of their party just because they have special needs.

And, if they make people with disabilities wait somewhere else until an 'estimated' time to go thru the line has passed, there will be some people with disabilities who are waiting longer than they would if they were not disabled. One thing I noticed on the other thread is that none of the people who were complaining about abuse responded to the posts that listed the Mainstream Attractions at WDW or the facts that were posted about people needing to wait longer for the wheelchair accessible cars (I even looked up the number of people per hour that can be loaded on the Nemo ride at Epcot and figured out that our extra 5 minutes waiting at the boarding area - after waiting with everyone else in the Mainstream Line until that point meant that 183 (I think it was that was what 2200 people per hour worked out with for 5 minutes) people passed us and got on there while we were waiting.
The same thing happened to us (several times) in Small World where we waited for 25 minutes while the regular line was walking right on.

 

[SueM in MN]

Sorry, I wasn't meaning to sound like that family got on all rides right away, all day. I was trying to point out that it was easy for me to see that they got on faster, but, in most cases, I wouldn't have noticed them waiting longer to get on - these can lead to the skewed perception that people in wheelchairs always get on faster, which seems to be believed by many. The fact that I noticed them, and that it struck me, indicates how rare it is (or, possibly, how unobservant I am).

That is exactly how the skewed perceptions start.
And someone remembers how they went with Grandma in 1990 and she got right on - that's because the lines then were not accessible and they had to somehow get Grandma out of the line before it got to narrow or had stairs with no way to go out of line before the stairs. The world (WDW) has changed a lot since then, but a lot of people don't believe it.

 

[cmwade77]

Luckily our issues aren't to a point that we can never do the regular line and we will occasionally do so if we can, especially if it means I have to stand for less time, as that is what really kills my knees.

Is this abuse? I don't think it is, there is no way that I could stand in a line for 60 minutes without a major problem, but 5-10 minutes at a time is not a big deal and it frees up one wheelchair space for the next guest that may not be so lucky.

This is a prime example of why it is so hard for me to believe the posters that say there is rampant abuse. I have had many CMs encourage doing it this way, as well, like I said, I can stand some and if the line is at a point that I can do the regular line, I will, if it is not, I will seek the assistance that I need. I am sure that this leads to some perceived abuse, but the whole reason we do it that way it so that we are not abusing the system and not causing longer waits for those behind us, when we could have done the regular line.

I hope that I explained that well enough to make it clear and easy to understand, as it is a complicated issue.

 

[alizesmom]

I'm still following this thread and the one on CB. I guess I haven't learned my lesson yet and am still out to change the world (or at least some of it). Karen

 

[mrsksomeday]

I'm still following this thread and the one on CB. I guess I haven't learned my lesson yet and am still out to change the world (or at least some of it). Karen

Karen, don't change you are a wonderful advocate .

 

[paw dis]

I wish these people that make these comments would open their eyes and see the whole picture, my daughter has missed out on so much of her teenage years because of her disability (arthritis and hypermobility) her friends were able to go ice-skating, on camping trips etc that she couldn't go on. She loves the Disney theme parks because they treat her fairly but some of the looks she gets from other visitors have really annoyed me, how dare they judge when they don't know what DD's life is like. Anyhow stopping now before I get angry .

I am hypermobile with joint problems too. When we did Disney several years ago there was too much walking and I struggled each day. The ECV would have made it so much better. I was not ready to admit I needed one yet -- actually it was that week that made it clear that I needed some help. Let your daughter know that the trip will be so much more fun if she paces and saves her energy for the fun things!

Why would people waste their time being mean to someone in a ECV? They need to get a life.

 

[SereneOne]

If people walked a mile in other people's shoes, they would be more compassionate.

Think how miserable several of them must be, that they go to the happiest place in the world and all they can do is look for things to be unhappy about and how the differently abled are taking away from their pleasure. "We" on the other hand, are thankful and see the joy in big and small things because of the suffering of our loved ones and/or ourselves.

I am still appalled, but one can not argue with fools, one can not win. (A few where, many where not, let me make that clear.) I personally grew tired of being told what I meant and how I was feeling (which was shock and disgust, not anger, really wish people would stop projecting their feelings on to me) and had better things to do, such as enjoying family and friends.

Let the ones who feel so cheated by equal access to their misperceptions, it gives them something to cling to.

I choose to focus on getting my daughter through her surgeries, her recovery and having a magical time in Disney World to finish the year.

Please realize what heroes/heroines you all are, that you presevere through the challenges of your loved ones and/or yourself and that there are many challenges and everyone has them, whether it comes to physical ones, mental ones, spiritual ones, emotional ones, etc. Each of you and/or your loved ones have many strengths too, do not forget!

 

[dclfun]

I haven't read the other thread in it's entirety as for some reason my computer is very slow and my time is limited. I did read about the changes at Knott's Berry Farm which I don't agree with. It's no different though in some ways than the WDW GAC policy that will not let a party member other than the GAC holder use the GAC. I know that sounds strange, but for me, if I can't experience an attraction I have the same issue of having to wait by myself ( at least I now have Skye) outside a building while the rest of my party rides an attraction. It means that while by myself I can have a dangerous situation such as hoses becoming detached from my vent. While my SD alerts to any leaks or loose hoses she can't properly place one of the hose or tubes back on. Same thing in queue lines- my equipment is compromised by others pulling on it, touching it, etc. and it's stressful to be constantly watchful. Since I often must place my chair in tilt or recline it sometimes is difficult to "fit" through the turns in a queue line. I either have the option of going through the queue lines to enjoy the company of family/friends and wearing out my battery and myself, thus limiting my time in the parks, or I can wait outside somewhere by myself. Now when they ask if I'm going to ride and can thus use the GAC, I have to lie and say "yes" then when I get to the front of the line, I tell the CM I'm going to exit. As to "rampant abuse" I sure haven't seen it. With the recent long wait in the new Toy Story attraction, as an example, every one of the other guests in the accessible line had a mobility issue that precluded them from using stairs. I doubt anyone rents an ECV for "convenience" but more for the chance to get to experience some fun, like everyone else, with their families. I *have* seen more and more ECV's over the past few years, attesting to the fact that more people who once stayed home are now out enjoying all society has to offer and that there's less of a stigma attached. We have no "perks" as I see it, only challenges that we all try mightily to overcome.---Kathy

 

[OneLittleSpark]

Wow! I'm suddenly famous!! Someone from the other thread came over here and found my joking post on page 2, and thought I was being serious!! There then followed a three page discussion about me, on why I didn't voice these feelings on that thread as well!! Goodness me, it's amazing how much a situation can escalate while I'm asleep. Thank you to all of you lovely people who stuck up for me when I wasn't there. You're all wonderful

I can only think you are right that the OP on that thread is looking to stir up trouble. I hope you don't mean me as the OP of this thread, as nothing could be further from the truth, I want people to understand and all get along. But I do want to be able to enjoy these things, something that I will not be able to do at Knott's ever again. Unless the policies change again.

Of course I don't mean you! You've done a good thing, by alerting us to this thread, so we can all pitch in and hopefully change some minds! I was meaning the OP of the other thread, who suddenly waded in claiming that most people who claim to be Autistic aren't, because they are not exactly like her cousin . Seeing as nobody was actually talking about Autism at the time, it looks like she's just out to get people's feathers ruffled

Sorry, I wasn't meaning to sound like that family got on all rides right away, all day. I was trying to point out that it was easy for me to see that they got on faster, but, in most cases, I wouldn't have noticed them waiting longer to get on - these can lead to the skewed perception that people in wheelchairs always get on faster, which seems to be believed by many. The fact that I noticed them, and that it struck me, indicates how rare it is (or, possibly, how unobservant I am).

I'm so so glad to see that there are still people out there with enough common sense to realise that one experience doesn't necessarily mean it's the norm! Sometimes you do get through the line quicker when you're in a wheelchair, but usually it is the same length of time or longer. Often the reason we get through more quickly, is that CMs will load a wheelchair party when they can, as waiting could lead to a backlog of wheelchair users, and cause more delays for everyone. Thank you for understanding this!

I'm still following this thread and the one on CB. I guess I haven't learned my lesson yet and am still out to change the world (or at least some of it). Karen

If we all keep trying to change the world for the better, even if only by little amounts, we'll end up with a fairer place for everyone. Never give up the fight, and never let the naysayers get you down

I am hypermobile with joint problems too. When we did Disney several years ago there was too much walking and I struggled each day. The ECV would have made it so much better. I was not ready to admit I needed one yet -- actually it was that week that made it clear that I needed some help. Let your daughter know that the trip will be so much more fun if she paces and saves her energy for the fun things!

Why would people waste their time being mean to someone in a ECV? They need to get a life.

Hi there, and to the Dis boards! I understand how hard it can be to accept the need for a mobility device, and I hope you find the solution that suits you best.

Oh, and please don't take some of those nasty posts on the other thread as the norm; I assure you most of the people on the Dis are kind, helpful and caring (apart from me, who is an evil wheelchair vigilante ).

 

[disneymom3]

Just wanted to say thanks for the helpful answers.

A theme park near here just changed their rules to those like Knott's too. It has been in the paper and news quite a bit. So far they claim that no one has complained to them but I really wonder.

Sue, I don't know where in MN you are but I am sure you have heard of the whole Valleyfair issue.