Annual Pass Rumors??

[jujubiee4]

Warning. May contain speculation, conjecture or opinions.

This one is classified as rumor.
On May 30th Disney stopped sales of all remaining Magic Keys at DLR.
They also cancelled ongoing online renewals.
Cast Members informed guests they would be offered a renewal opportunity during their renewal window — which opened about July 16th — 40 days before the first MKs were sold.
Nothing happened.
CMs updated and said renewals this summer.
Nothing.
A blog rumor was August for renewals.
No sign of it.
Newest rumor — the CMs have now told some passholders there will not be any renewals of the MK program.
Crickets from Disney in the face of this rumor.
At Q3 yesterday Chapek referred to MK passholders as unfavorable.
Crickets again.

Oh no! Where did you hear this rumor?

 

[DL1WDW2]

I read update in the Disney Food Blog site…but don’t recall any rumors
My interpretation… the APwill not exist because it will be called something else . So the current AP program (DL &WDW) as we know and love it will end.
In the meantime , rumors create consternation and increase probability we will buy anything they design at any price .

 

[Liquidice]

Warning. Speculation or conjecture.
Disney’s “knowledge” on this is not perfect. They are currently doing surveys asking passholders questions about spending and there are still cash sales without AP discounts that are not tracked. Not everyone uses plastic in the parks.

I do wonder if they can truly track spending at the per guest level - I use gift cards to buy everything, so they don't necessarily know who I am at the register.

Even when I use an AP discount, they don't scan my AP or anything so they don't know its me - they obviously know that an AP bought something because they applied the discount though.

However there was a 39% increase in spending per capita in FYQ3 2022 versus the same quarter in 2019 (pre-pandemic). That is huge. That means if the average guest normally spent $100 per day in 2019 - the average guest now is spending $139. Certainly some of that is due to increased prices and upcharges like Genie+ but not all of it is attributed to that. The average guest at Disney parks (including ticketholders and APs) are spending more. The question is, how accurately are they attributing it to ticketed guests vs. APs?

I seriously wonder how accurate their data is. A lot of people say Disney knows a ton about you - they definitely know where you go, but Magicband and even GPS technology is not accurate enough to say that XYZ person bought something, they know you're in the store - yes, but not that you bought something. Dining might be different since they can attribute you being in a restaurant to you likely spent some money there.

But IT is not exactly their strong point - I hope their data is being collected and analyzed correctly.

 

[Ms Bibbidi]

Oh no! Where did you hear this rumor?

Warning, this post may contain speculation, conjecture or opinion.

I was searching Chapek Q3 I have read many today, so I do not remember where. I know some people were reporting that is what a CM was telling them today. Just rumor for now.

 

[Ms Bibbidi]

I do wonder if they can truly track spending at the per guest level - I use gift cards to buy everything, so they don't necessarily know who I am at the register.

Even when I use an AP discount, they don't scan my AP or anything so they don't know its me - they obviously know that an AP bought something because they applied the discount though.

However there was a 39% increase in spending per capita in FYQ3 2022 versus the same quarter in 2019 (pre-pandemic). That is huge. That means if the average guest normally spent $100 per day in 2019 - the average guest now is spending $139. Certainly some of that is due to increased prices and upcharges like Genie+ but not all of it is attributed to that. The average guest at Disney parks (including ticketholders and APs) are spending more. The question is, how accurately are they attributing it to ticketed guests vs. APs?

I seriously wonder how accurate their data is. A lot of people say Disney knows a ton about you - they definitely know where you go, but Magicband and even GPS technology is not accurate enough to say that XYZ person bought something, they know you're in the store - yes, but not that you bought something. Dining might be different since they can attribute you being in a restaurant to you likely spent some money there.

But IT is not exactly their strong point - I hope their data being collected and analyzed correctly.

Warning, this post may contain speculation, conjecture or opinion.

They do not have enough people to mine that data on anything more than a macro scale. Accurate or not, Chapek believes it enough to make decisions on it.

 

[TCRAIG]

Why? DVC is selling like hotcakes. They have no need to. In their minds, DVC members are definitely the “least favorable” type of guest. We don’t even pay for hotel stays!

We DVCers are like little birds singing - we’re CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP!!!

 

[RivShore]

But IT is not exactly their strong point - I hope their data is being collected and analyzed correctly.

This is so true! This is a company that can't get the simplest things done correctly when it comes to IT but we expect them to have all this wonderful detailed and meaningful data??

 

[DeeBee3]

Disney's actual website is terrible and not user friendly, but that does not mean the programs they use to collect data are terrible.

People aren't mining the data - computers are. They have much more information than we give them credit for. They don't need a large number of employees to get this done. They know when you enter a store, and yes, they do know what you buy and what discounts you may use. If you use cash or a gift card, it may make it slightly harder, but the computers are sophisticated enough to figure out you were in the store and at the register.

That sounds nuts, but your info is out there and very easy to access when you have a smart phone or smart device on your body. That's why you get coupons or emails after you leave Target or any other big store. They know you were there and what sort of items you tend to buy.

Not sure this helps at all with AP info.

 

[Liquidice]

Disney's actual website is terrible and not user friendly, but that does not mean the programs they use to collect data are terrible.

People aren't mining the data - computers are. They have much more information than we give them credit for. They don't need a large number of employees to get this done. They know when you enter a store, and yes, they do know what you buy and what discounts you may use. If you use cash or a gift card, it may make it slightly harder, but the computers are sophisticated enough to figure out you were in the store and at the register.

That sounds nuts, but your info is out there and very easy to access when you have a smart phone or smart device on your body. That's why you get coupons or emails after you leave Target or any other big store. They know you were there and what sort of items you tend to buy.

Not sure this helps at all with AP info.

Do you work for Disney and know this for a fact? I am asking because I am truly curious, not trying to say you are wrong. The reason why it surprises me is because location based data by itself is not accurate enough to tell where you are exactly. It is accurate to within about 5m or 16 feet, which is fine for car navigation but not for something like who is standing at the register. Some more advanced systems can get to 1m accuracy or 3 ft but it is very expensive and it would surprise me if Disney did this.

Lastly there is the Amazon “just walk out” technology that tracks each individual person and can tell when you pick up an item and when you put it back, but I can tell you for sure Disney doesn’t have that tech in their shops because it is quite obvious when you look at the ceiling because of the sheer number of sensors it required.

I can definitely see if you use a credit card how they can associate the name of the CC with the guest and put 2 and 2 together to figure out what you’re buying and obviously if you use a magicband to pay they know exactly who you are.

If you use cash or a giftcard I’m not sure how they would know, but in these days maybe it is such a low % of people that actually buy with cash or giftcard that statistically it doesn’t matter.

It would certainly be interesting to see how much data they have and how truly accurate their estimations of AP spending vs ticketed guest spending is. It does make natural sense though that if you go to the parks once a week, on average (based per day, not over the course of a year) you spend less than a ticketed guest.

But what percent of AP guests are visiting the parks every week and what percent only come a few times a year and spend similar to a ticketed guest? Disney definitely has that data too.

 

[Brian Noble]

Do you work for Disney and know this for a fact?

It's not that Disney in particular does this. It's that nearly every major retailer is doing this to at least some degree. But, Disney has done some things that give it more data than most.

Disey has a lot of data on who you are and what you do. Ever wear a magic band? It has a radio that identifies you within about 10m, and plenty of infrastructure in the Parks that collects that data constantly. Even if you don't wear one, nearly everyone else has one on, or they've enabled location information and bluetooth beaconing on their smartphone MDE app, or both. If you are able to get your 7DMT photo, then Disney knows approximately where you are whenever you are in the park. For magic band/bluetooth beaconing, you don't just get "the device is nearby" but you also get signal strength. Devices that are farther away have a lower signal strength, through a process called attenuation. You can use the attenuation of the signal to get (approximate) range data, and if you can do that from a couple of different receivers you can triangulate location quite well using existing technology.

What's more, you don't need to wear or use a band as long as enough people do it to enable them to build guest profiles. That's because they don't need to know specific details about you. They only need to know how people who are like you generally behave. That's enough to give them a profile in the aggregate that is pretty good for predictive purposes. And, once they have that, they can tie it to the category of person you likely are, and be pretty close to right about general behavior. They can't know "Bob is going to buy that hat." But they probably do know about how much merchandise Bob is going to buy during his visit to the Parks, even if he's never been there before.

More than a decade ago, Delta airlines had an (inadvertent) public interface that allowed anyone in their frequent flier program to download (part of) their Customer Relations Management profile. One of the fields in that profile was the Experian Mosaic profile code assigned to you. Mine at the time was A03, which Experian calls "Kids and Cabernet". It didn't perfectly capture us, but it was very very close, and closer than any of the others. There are 71 different categories into which you can be sorted, and the categories are fascinating. You can edit the URL to get the others. For example, this is F23: Family Matters Most.

You can be absolutely sure that Disney is doing at least this much, because they can just buy it from Experian or someone else like them. But, they are almost certainly doing more. Most of their customers have a single identity across all of their touchpoints (your "Disney login"), so they know exactly what their customers watch (on Disney+, Hulu, and ESPN+) at home---including whether you finished that show or stopped it in the middle. When the executives talk about "what they are learning from Hulu" in planning for the ad-supported tier of Disney+, this is what they are talking about. They know when you visit DLR or WDW, and where you go and what you do while you are there. They know when you are looking at (date-specific!) ticket prices because you are thinking about maybe taking a trip. That's what the executives are talking about when they talk about "trip intention". And, they probably know this even when you are not logged in, because it's relatively easy to fingerprint users with most typical web browsers. If you ever log in once from that browser at that location, you're probably always tracked.

It's likely that Disney has not fully integrated the various data streams they have, because their IT is...not great. But, they probably have integrated the in-park point-of-sale data with the in-park location data, because they updated the point-of-sale terminals when Magic Bands came out--and Magic Bands are the primary way they track your location in the park. It's the same data set.

Modern "large commerce" companies do this sort of stuff all the time. They are only getting started. Westworld's Rehoboam is not nearly as future-fiction as most people might think.

-------------

Edited to add: Now that I think about it, this might be why Magic Bands are no longer free; they might have a pretty good set of customer profiles, and the further refinements are not worth the cost of continuing to give them away. But, building those profiles was absolutely worth it.

Also edited to add: this was the full set of Mosaic categories as of 2012: https://appliedgeographic.com/AGS_mosaic_2012/Mosaic_Descriptions.pdf

 

[Liquidice]

It's not that Disney in particular does this. It's that nearly every major retailer is doing this to at least some degree. But, Disney has done some things that give it more data than most.

Disey has a lot of data on who you are and what you do. Ever wear a magic band? It has a radio that identifies you within about 10m, and plenty of infrastructure in the Parks that collects that data constantly. Even if you don't wear one, nearly everyone else has one on, or they've enabled location information and bluetooth beaconing on their smartphone MDE app, or both. If you are able to get your 7DMT photo, then Disney knows approximately where you are whenever you are in the park. For magic band/bluetooth beaconing, you don't just get "the device is nearby" but you also get signal strength. Devices that are farther away have a lower signal strength, through a process called attenuation. You can use the attenuation of the signal to get (approximate) range data, and if you can do that from a couple of different receivers you can triangulate location quite well using existing technology.

What's more, you don't need to wear or use a band as long as enough people do it to enable them to build guest profiles. That's because they don't need to know specific details about you. They only need to know how people who are like you generally behave. That's enough to give them a profile in the aggregate that is pretty good for predictive purposes. And, once they have that, they can tie it to the category of person you likely are, and be pretty close to right about general behavior. They can't know "Bob is going to buy that hat." But they probably do know about how much merchandise Bob is going to buy during his visit to the Parks, even if he's never been there before.

More than a decade ago, Delta airlines had an (inadvertent) public interface that allowed anyone in their frequent flier program to download (part of) their Customer Relations Management profile. One of the fields in that profile was the Experian Mosaic profile code assigned to you. Mine at the time was A03, which Experian calls "Kids and Cabernet". It didn't perfectly capture us, but it was very very close, and closer than any of the others. There are 71 different categories into which you can be sorted, and the categories are fascinating. You can edit the URL to get the others. For example, this is F23: Family Matters Most.

You can be absolutely sure that Disney is doing at least this much, because they can just buy it from Experian or someone else like them. But, they are almost certainly doing more. Most of their customers have a single identity across all of their touchpoints (your "Disney login"), so they know exactly what their customers watch (on Disney+, Hulu, and ESPN+) at home---including whether you finished that show or stopped it in the middle. When the executives talk about "what they are learning from Hulu" in planning for the ad-supported tier of Disney+, this is what they are talking about. They know when you visit DLR or WDW, and where you go and what you do while you are there. They know when you are looking at (date-specific!) ticket prices because you are thinking about maybe taking a trip. That's what the executives are talking about when they talk about "trip intention". And, they probably know this even when you are not logged in, because it's relatively easy to fingerprint users with most typical web browsers. If you ever log in once from that browser at that location, you're probably always tracked.

It's likely that Disney has not fully integrated the various data streams they have, because their IT is...not great. But, they probably have integrated the in-park point-of-sale data with the in-park location data, because they updated the point-of-sale terminals when Magic Bands came out--and Magic Bands are the primary way they track your location in the park. It's the same data set.

Modern "large commerce" companies do this sort of stuff all the time. They are only getting started. Westworld's Rehoboam is not nearly as future-fiction as most people might think.

-------------

Edited to add: Now that I think about it, this might be why Magic Bands are no longer free; they might have a pretty good set of customer profiles, and the further refinements are not worth the cost of continuing to give them away. But, building those profiles was absolutely worth it.

Also edited to add: this was the full set of Mosaic categories as of 2012: https://appliedgeographic.com/AGS_mosaic_2012/Mosaic_Descriptions.pdf

I don't doubt Disney is collecting data on individuals, like you said pretty much everyone is doing it.

What my question was more along the lines of was - how accurately can Disney actually know when an AP vs. a Ticket Holder is buying something. I have no doubt they can track you down to 10 meters or so, but that isn't accurate enough to know that you're at the register buying something.

With ride photos, they know exactly where you will show up because the car is passing by at that exact point, so it is easier to calculate. Could they have something similar at the cash registers that is basically reading your magicband when you're standing there? Sure, but I wasn't sure if they were doing something like that.

The newer bluetooth capability they have is less accurate - as you can tell when ride photos come in, it asks you to select from 2-3 photos.

I'm fairly familiar with what other companies are doing in this regard - especially at retail. Just not as familiar with Disney's specific capabilities of tracking you down to a specific person purchasing something in the park to differentiate an AP vs. a non-AP buying something. It would be surprising to me if they could track you that easily - but like I said earlier, if the majority of customers are using a Magicband or a credit card, then it isn't too hard to link the data of purchases to a person based on name and their rough location. So statistically, like you said too - maybe this is good enough to give them an impression.

I personally think Magicbands stopped being offered for free because a lot of people were taking the free bands just because they were free on every trip. For repeat guests it is a waste - not only does it cost Disney money but in terms of throw away plastic. Now most trips I don't order a new magicband I just use my old one.

 

[Brian Noble]

how accurately can Disney actually know when an AP vs. a Ticket Holder is buying something. I have no doubt they can track you down to 10 meters or so, but that isn't accurate enough to know that you're at the register buying something.

They don't need to know it for everyone. They need to know it for enough people to build customer profiles that have predictive power for the customer base at whatever granularity they use to categorize each customer. And I will bet a Mickeybar that enough people wear and pay for merch with Magic Bands to do that. That's IMO why they gave them away to anyone with an AP or resort reservation: the data was amazingly valuable.

not only does it cost Disney money but in terms of throw away plastic

Disney couldn't care less about plastic in landfill. They do care about the lost revenue of giving them away vs. selling them, but the value of the data collected pays for it.

 

[Mrs.AMC]

I still say no amount of data mining in the world will tell them how many additional trips anyone makes due to having an annual pass or how many additional trips they miss out on due to someone not being able to buy an annual pass.
It's impossible for them to mine that data from anything.
I don't even know if they are taking those two things in to consideration because it's not something that shows up on someone's spreadsheet of facts for the reason that you can't track it
I suppose if they are content with the numbers they are seeing without that info then it don't matter to them but I do think they could be quite surprised at just how much those two things can add up to

 

[Brian Noble]

It's impossible for them to mine that data from anything.

I'm curious as to why you think it is impossible.

Would you agree that Disney knows who has bought Annual Passes in the past, and how often they came? Would you also agree that Disney knows who bought individual park tickets, how many days, and when they were used? Given that information, do you think it is possible to build a model of what "typical" Annual Passholders do, and what "typical" day guests do? Given those models, do you think they could use them to try to predict what would happen if they stopped selling Annual Passes? And would you agree that they've got almost nine months worth of data against which to test those predictions after stopping sales to see if their predictions are working and/or to tweak them?

If you answer yes to each of those questions, then it's possible. If you think it is impossible, which of those things do you think they can't do?

 

[Mrs.AMC]

I'm curious as to why you think it is impossible.

Would you agree that Disney knows who has bought Annual Passes in the past, and how often they came? Would you also agree that Disney knows who bought individual park tickets, how many days, and when they were used? Given that information, do you think it is possible to build a model of what "typical" Annual Passholders do, and what "typical" day guests do? Given those models, do you think they could use them to try to predict what would happen if they stopped selling Annual Passes? And would you agree that they've got almost nine months worth of data against which to test those predictions after stopping sales to see if their predictions are working and/or to tweak them?

If you answer yes to each of those questions, then it's possible. If you think it is impossible, which of those things do you think they can't do?

It's a guess at best. Not factual data
And please note, I never said they couldn't guess.
They can guess all they want.
But none of those guesses can put them inside someone's head to know for a fact what they plan to do
So no, don't agree.

 

[Liquidice]

They don't need to know it for everyone. They need to know it for enough people to build customer profiles that have predictive power for the customer base at whatever granularity they use to categorize each customer. And I will bet a Mickeybar that enough people wear and pay for merch with Magic Bands to do that. That's IMO why they gave them away to anyone with an AP or resort reservation: the data was amazingly valuable.


Disney couldn't care less about plastic in landfill. They do care about the lost revenue of giving them away vs. selling them, but the value of the data collected pays for it.

Yeah like I said, it depends on the number of people to get their statistics correct. I think we're in agreement here - unless APs use gift cards more often than ticketholders to a significant enough degree that it skews the data.

Paying with a magicband is only applicable to resort guests - so I'm pretty sure you would limit your data quite a bit if you only take them into account. Resort guests only make up about 25% of the guests, and not sure if they'd properly represent all of the demographics of guests. They also only gave them out to resort guests and AP holders.

As far as not caring about environmental impacts - I think you're speaking for Disney here and assuming they are a corporate monster that only cares about profits - but if true, pretty awful then if Disney doesn't care at all about the environment. Maybe they should get rid of their recycling bins in the parks too

Sure the cost of sending Magicbands out for free is probably a more important aspect than environmental impact - but to say they don't care at all? You can claim its PR fluff, but Disney has a goal to be net zero greenhouse gas emissions and a goal to reduce it by 50% by 2020 (not sure if they met that goal). Part of their environmental goals are also to reduce waste. https://impact.disney.com/environment/environmental-sustainability/

 

[Cynner]

I do wonder if they can truly track spending at the per guest level - I use gift cards to buy everything, so they don't necessarily know who I am at the register.


I seriously wonder how accurate their data is. A lot of people say Disney knows a ton about you - they definitely know where you go, but Magicband and even GPS technology is not accurate enough to say that XYZ person bought something, they know you're in the store - yes, but not that you bought something. Dining might be different since they can attribute you being in a restaurant to you likely spent some money there.

Did you use your AP discount? That definitely lets them know how much AP owners are spending. Did you register your Disney Gift card in their system? That’s linked directly to your account.

 

[Cynner]

Do you work for Disney and know this for a fact? I am asking because I am truly curious, not trying to say you are wrong. The reason why it surprises me is because location based data by itself is not accurate enough to tell where you are exactly. It is accurate to within about 5m or 16 feet, which is fine for car navigation but not for something like who is standing at the register. Some more advanced systems can get to 1m accuracy or 3 ft but it is very expensive and it would surprise me if Disney did this.

Lastly there is the Amazon “just walk out” technology that tracks each individual person and can tell when you pick up an item and when you put it back, but I can tell you for sure Disney doesn’t have that tech in their shops because it is quite obvious when you look at the ceiling because of the sheer number of sensors it required.

I can definitely see if you use a credit card how they can associate the name of the CC with the guest and put 2 and 2 together to figure out what you’re buying and obviously if you use a magicband to pay they know exactly who you are.

If you use cash or a giftcard I’m not sure how they would know, but in these days maybe it is such a low % of people that actually buy with cash or giftcard that statistically it doesn’t matter.

It would certainly be interesting to see how much data they have and how truly accurate their estimations of AP spending vs ticketed guest spending is. It does make natural sense though that if you go to the parks once a week, on average (based per day, not over the course of a year) you spend less than a ticketed guest.

But what percent of AP guests are visiting the parks every week and what percent only come a few times a year and spend similar to a ticketed guest? Disney definitely has that data too.

If you are on your phone app and on their wi-fi they know where you are.

 

[Liquidice]

Did you use your AP discount? That definitely lets them know how much AP owners are spending. Did you register your Disney Gift card in their system? That’s linked directly to your account.

I do use my AP discount, but they don't scan it or anything - so it wouldn't tell you what a specific guest spent as an AP, but at scale it should tell you how many APs you had in the park that day and how much APs spent vs normal guests. Although for QS and places that don't offer AP discounts, you again might skew the data if you bucket all QS restaurant spending into the non-AP bucket.

I'm not sure if registering the gift card tracks, I always delete them from my account after combining for security purposes. But I'm sure they could build a database of GCs associated with a particular Disney account.

 

[Ms Bibbidi]

Well a bullet point from the earnings call yesterday was in an article....

• Christine, in speaking on levers of demand within the parks, mentions the sticky subject of Annual Pass availability and sales, stating that if demand would decrease, this could be revisited. BUT, she also notes that no demand decrease has been seen to date, suggesting that we may not be seeing resumed Annual Pass sales anytime soon.

https://www.wdwinfo.com/news-stories/the-walt-disney-company-q3-2022-earnings-call-recap/

Warning, This post may contain speculation, conjecture or opinion.

I addressed this post yesterday, but the WDW Info blog site did have that bullet point. So, I went on a deeper dive. Thanks, by the way, jujubiee4 for finding this and bringing it up. Good thing to do.

Anyway, I did go back and looked at the WDW Info website. It had it there as a bullet point, but the link is only to a website that generally lists the annual passes -- nothing about a comment at the earnings call.

I also went to the official release in printed form that was issued for the Q3 Earnings Call. I paged through doing a visual search and then several computer word searches. I checked, my Windows control+F did find words in the doc and it did not mention annual passes.

I then went to the official transcript on Seeking Alpha and Motley Fool. Again, a visual and a computer word search. Nothing on annual passes. Christine McCarthy, CFO talked about the levers.

*******
This is exactly what she said in the Q3 Earnings Call.

"Demand at our domestic parks continues to exceed expectations with attendance on many days tracking ahead of 2019 levels.​

And our continued focus on improving the guest experience through the use of our reservation system to purposely manage capacity versus simply increasing volume has the added benefit of improving yield and optimizing overall economics. So even while the average daily attendance at our domestic parks across the first three quarters of this fiscal year was slightly below 2019, we have delivered significantly higher revenue and operating income over that same time period. This approach also provides flexibility with levers we can adjust if demand were to shift. Per capita spending at our domestic parks also remained strong, increasing 10% versus Q3 of fiscal 2021 and over 40% versus fiscal 2019.​

And in another sign of the robust demand we have seen at our parks and resorts, occupancy at our domestic hotels in the third quarter was 90%. Looking ahead, domestic demand at our theme parks continues to look robust with current forward-looking hotel bookings and intent to visit roughly in line with pre-pandemic trends."​

​

*********
"During the Q&A, this is what Christine McCarthy said.

Operator

[Operator instructions] And the first question will be from Doug Mitchelson from Credit Suisse. Please go ahead.

Doug Mitchelson -- Credit Suisse -- Analyst

Thanks so much. One question, there was so much to ask about. Why don't I go with this, and I do appreciate you separating out the guidance between Hotstar and core Disney, but parks were impressive this quarter. And as you talked about levers if demand were to shift, is the company satisfied pent-up demand from the pandemic at the parks' point? Should we look at the go-forward basis is relatively normal trends? And I'm guessing you have a different answer for domestic versus international.

And Christine, I'd be curious if you'd put any meat on the bone regarding the levers if demand were to shift at the parks.

Christine McCarthy -- Senior Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer

Sure. Thanks, Doug. Our parks certainly did have a fantastic quarter. And I just want to say that the parks team is the same team led by Josh D'Amaro that was able to manage through the COVID crisis that impacted the business significantly.

They also were able to ramp back in on a very phased basis back to the recovery phase, and they're now positioned for growth. So I just want to acknowledge that team for being sort of a triple threat when it comes to being able to manage from very, very different vantage points based on the environment. As it relates to levers of demand, some of the things we could do, Doug, we had limited the number of annual passes that we have across some of our businesses -- some of the parks. And all of those come with some -- with the exception of the highest tiered priced annual passes.

They all come with some blackout dates. So to the extent to which perhaps you had lightened demand, you could loosen up some of those to bring more people in the park and just enjoy the park and spend money while they're there. And also, as it relates to demand, we have not yet seen demand abate at all. And we still have many days when people cannot get reservations.

So we're still seeing demand in excess of the reservations that we are making available for our guests.

Alexia Quadrani -- Senior Vice President of Investor Relations

Thank you. Next question.

Operator

Thank you. And the next question will be from Ben Swinburne from Morgan Stanley. Please go ahead."

***************
That is completely all of it. So, WDW Info's bullet point was wrong. There was nothing that indicated that the sticky subject of annual pass availability and sales was addressed at all, much less that there was any hopeful comment that if demand decreased that Disney would revisit availability and sales of annual passes.

In fact, as you can see from the official report and the official transcripts of the call, the exact opposite was true.
McCarthy stated this information that was earlier suspected, but now we know it is true -- Disney put a cap on the number of annual passes sold.

"[W}e had limited the number of annual passes that we have across some of our businesses -- some of the parks ... ."

So, as a lever for managing park attendance, that has already been done.
She talked about lightening demand as a theoretical thing and said they could manipulate blackout (sic) dates on existing annual passes outstanding. There was no mention of selling additional new annual passes. We do not know the cap number or if with people failing to renew if they will open for sales of those dropped passes.

The talk about lightening demand (reduced demand) was theoretical. Both she and Bob Chapek were clear in their report that they expected demand to continue to be high. All their indicators are that this is not a revenge travel surge at this time. It is the new normal. Going forward, they still have more demand than the capacity they have made available. They capped capacity for their own reasons and state it as quality experience. But, that is probably a hard number too.

Apart from Disney's call, the economists are remarking that modernly recessions are short lived compared to something like the 1930s. Also, about 20% of WDW attendance is normally foreign travel and growing. So, it appears that Disney feels the numerous "levers" it has for managing crowd capacity - to constrain or increase it -- are sufficient. With these new park reservations, buckets for availability, manipulating bonus days or even erasing some block-out days and ticket specials, they have enough tools to manage -- without relying on opening more sales to annual passholders.

So it appears to me that we have an answer to the question as to whether Disney needs annual passholders. Right now, that answer is not more than the ones they already have.
I will go out on a limb here and say I do not expect new AP sales to open up any time soon. Disney expects their demand to continue through the 4th quarter and beyond.
I may be wrong.