Andrea Yates-Not guilty due to insanity

[declansdad]

IHowever, I do know that in most cases where a father kills his own children it is to get back at the wife for leaving him.

And you have studied this extensively to make this correlation?

This is the exact double standard that the earlier posters were talking about.

 

[yeartolate]

Poohandwendy, thank you for your insight.

But it makes me wonder why your sister's kids were taken out of her custody and Andrea Yate's children were not.Andrea Yates entered the mental health system a multitude of times, but what was the barrier that prevented the protection of her kids? Even the most proprosecution slanted timelines really make me wonder why she was ever allowed alone with her kids....even for a second.

 

[inaminute]

I do know that in most cases where a father kills his own children it is to get back at the wife for leaving him.

So, mothers who kill their children can be excused because they MUST be insane, while fathers who kill their children do so out of revenge?

No double standard there.

 

[Tazicket]

poohandwendy, what a thoughtful post, you offer great insight into this horrible problem and tragedy.

It is obvious that people have very strong opinions about this case. Whether Andrea is "evil" or not is really not the issue to me. She was and is a severely ill women who, although not in a prison, will be punished every day of her life.

Mental facilities, (even "nice" ones) are horrific places. The place she will be staying is called a "cottage". It is not the kind of cottage that we might picture in our minds. She will be on "lock down" 24 hours a day, sharing a room with approximately six severely mentally ill people (often violent) and she will medicated for the rest of her life. Psychotrophic drugs strong enough to keep her out of a psychotic state have a slew of side effects that in an of themselves make life miserable. Evil is open to interpretation, you may think she is or not, but Andrea Yates is not getting "away" with anything. She is locked up, mentally ill, and if and when she ever gets to the point where she can be free of mental illness (Highly doubtful) she will have to live with her crimes with a clear and healthy mind.

I was just about to point this out. Just because AY is in a mental facility rather than a prison doesn't mean that she'll get to lounge by the pool everyday. At least she'll be able to receive treatment for her documented mental illness while in the mental health facility, as she probably would not be able to in prison.

The whole purpose of the NGBROI verdict is to help people who commit heinous acts like this because they are severly mentally ill. Contrary to popular belief, it is very difficult to succeed when claiming this defense...mostly because many people think it is an excuse to dodge punishment. I am not opposed to the death penalty. In fact, prior to beginning the major coursework for my criminal justice degree, I was in the camp that believed AY should be executed. She is really sick and I hope she can get the medication she needs.

Also, I may be mistaken, but I think there is a new verdict option in some states: Guilty but Mentally Ill...I'll have to research it after work today.

 

[lookingforward]

So, mothers who kill their children can be excused because they MUST be insane, while fathers who kill their children do so out of revenge?

No double standard there.

Usually familicide (killing one's family) is done when a relationship is ending. Recently, in Miami, a father threw his two children out of the Loew's hotel to their deaths and then jumped himself. His wife was locked out of the room. I am on the state mandated domestic violence fatality review team and we look at systemic ways we might have prevented the deaths by intervening earlier.

Lethality assessments are very difficult to do but there are red flags that precipitate domestic homocides:

1. the relationship is over or ending
2. pregnancy
3. threats to kill oneself or other family members
4. drugs or alchohol use
5. previous strangulation
6. access to weapons
7. MENTAL ILLNESS

Better intervention might have prevented the death of the Yates children. I still believe that her husband is culpable because he KNEW and failed to act in a responsible way to protect his children. I don't know if the family was referred to social service agencies but they should have been when the mother was actively psychotic months before the murders.

That said, there is little the system can do legally unless their is obvious neglect. If Andrea's husband had a plan to safeguard the children they would be allowed to remain with their mother. Then, if he failed to uphold the plan, no one would be the wiser. This is clearly what happened in my opinion. He let things get out of control with his wife. If anyone is evil, in my opinion, it would be him. She was as sick as anyone could be...he wasn't.

 

[BuckNaked]

If anyone is evil, in my opinion, it would be him. She was as sick as anyone could be...he wasn't.

This is what I don't get - he didn't lay a hand on those kids, and people want his head on a platter. She came up with a plan and executed it, ending in the death of the children, but she should be excused with no punishment.

 

[Toby'sFriend]

No offense to anybody with experience in regards to Mental Illness, been there myself.

But in my humble opinion, people REALLY REALLY need to back off of the "unless you know somebody with mental illness, you don't know what you are talking about" attitudes.

The fact is, this woman MURDERED 5 human beings....very small and helpless human beings who didn't even have a chance to defend themselves at that. If there is ever a situation that screams for society to have an opinion on how we should handle this, this is it.

Andrea Yates was not in prison after the last verdict. She was in incarcerated at the State Prison Mental Health lockdown facility. She was receiving medical care from Psychiatrists and Docotrs, drugs to treat her psychosis, and other care. Her "prison confinement" was nearly identical to what she will be experiencing after this verdict.

The main difference between then and now is that Andrea Yates has won the ability to periodically appear before a Judge and claim "I'm just fine now can I please get out?" Before, she would not have been eligible for parole until she was around 75 years old. I have a hard time imagining any judge allowing her release from the mental hospital, but who is to say? It could happen, judges can be very wacky people. She also now (since she is Not Guilty of any crime) has more rights to visitations and correspondance with the outside world. The state has a lesser ability to 100% control the who, when, and why of her contacts with the outside world.

 

[DVC Sadie]

This is what I don't get - he didn't lay a hand on those kids, and people want his head on a platter. She came up with a plan and executed it, ending in the death of the children, but she should be excused with no punishment.

I haven't read where one person stated that AY should be excused with no punishment. She is being punished for her crime and that sentence in a state mental hospital will be horrific and a lot worse (in some cases) then spending that time in jail.

The husband didn't lay a hand on his kids but he knew the danger they were in ,therefore he should have either removed those children from the house of had his wife committed before she killed her kids. Yes, I too believe he played a part in their demise by not doing "anything".

 

[BuckNaked]

I haven't read where one person stated that AY should be excused with no punishment. She is being punished for her crime and that sentence in a state mental hospital will be horrific and a lot worse (in some cases) then spending that time in jail.

Jail time would be punishment. How can you say she's being punished when she wasn't even found guilty?

The husband didn't lay a hand on his kids but he knew the danger they were in ,therefore he should have either removed those children from the house of had his wife committed before she killed her kids. Yes, I too believe he played a part in their demise by not doing "anything".

Like I said before, blame the guy that didn't harm them, and excuse the woman that killed them.

 

[eclectics]

Her husband was on Larry King last night. One thing that didn't sit with me was his subtle hinting that his ex-wife should eventually be set free. His exact quote was something along the lines of "Oh, of course she will be spending a good amount of time there. They don't let you out right away". I can't see even the most compassionate person having a problem with her spending the rest of her life in institutional care. Why would he be okay with her leaving sooner rather than later? The woman should never have any contact with children again.

 

[janette]

Her husband was on Larry King last night. One thing that didn't sit with me was his subtle hinting that his ex-wife should eventually be set free. His exact quote was something along the lines of "Oh, of course she will be spending a good amount of time there. They don't let you out right away". I can't see even the most compassionate person having a problem with her spending the rest of her life in institutional care. Why would he be okay with her leaving sooner rather than later? The woman should never have any contact with children again.

I've never been impressed that he deals with reality. Remember he's the one that left his kids with her.

 

[janette]

last verdict. She was in incarcerated at the State Prison Mental Health lockdown facility. She was receiving medical care from Psychiatrists and Docotrs, drugs to treat her psychosis, and other care. Her "prison confinement" was nearly identical to what she will be experiencing after this verdict.

The main difference between then and now is that Andrea Yates has won the ability to periodically appear before a Judge and claim "I'm just fine now can I please get out?" Before, she would not have been eligible for parole until she was around 75 years old. I have a hard time imagining any judge allowing her release from the mental hospital, but who is to say? It could happen, judges can be very wacky people. She also now (since she is Not Guilty of any crime) has more rights to visitations and correspondance with the outside world. The state has a lesser ability to 100% control the who, when, and why of her contacts with the outside world.

A Guilty but Insane isn't available in TX. Maybe this case will inspire someone in the Legislature to change that since it would have been a good option in cases like this. Only 12 states have laws that allow that type of verdict. Insanity Defense

 

[eclectics]

I've never been impressed that he deals with reality. Remember he's the one that left his kids with her.

Exactly. His behavior is in such stark contrast to the ex-husband of that woman who drove her children into that lake some years back. I know that's a different set of circumstances but the end result was the same. He almost seems nonchalant that his children are gone. As I said in an earlier post, he may be book smart, but he's not the sharpest tool in the shed himself.

 

[ExPirateShopGirl]

Jail time would be punishment. How can you say she's being punished when she wasn't even found guilty?

Spend a few years in the facility where she's being held and decide then if it's punishment... as far as I can see, it's the same as jail, but with more shrinks and meds.

 

[Alicnwondrln]

I also think her husband should have been held accountable in this as well. He went off to work everyday, leaving her with all those children knowing full well that she was not of sound mind. That was negligent, and for that he holds some accountability. I know I will get flamed big time for this, but it is only my opinion.

\I think shes crazy but he husband deserves to be jail with in
not remarried and having a life
i agree with the above he knew she was sick DID Nothing but kept having kids
and left her alone to take care of them

 

[BuckNaked]

Spend a few years in the facility where she's being held and decide then if it's punishment... as far as I can see, it's the same as jail, but with more shrinks and meds.

I don't need to do that - I didn't murder my children. And if I did kill my kids, I would expect that I would be punished.

 

[Alicnwondrln]

Her husband was on Larry King last night. One thing that didn't sit with me was his subtle hinting that his ex-wife should eventually be set free. His exact quote was something along the lines of "Oh, of course she will be spending a good amount of time there. They don't let you out right away". I can't see even the most compassionate person having a problem with her spending the rest of her life in institutional care. Why would he be okay with her leaving sooner rather than later? The woman should never have any contact with children again.

i agree she should never be near any child again
and should not get out
they said one of her children struggled ALOT when she murdered him
theres something not right about him either, he doesnt seem to realize she doesnt deserve to ever get out for what she did

 

[poohandwendy]

Poohandwendy, thank you for your insight.

But it makes me wonder why your sister's kids were taken out of her custody and Andrea Yate's children were not.Andrea Yates entered the mental health system a multitude of times, but what was the barrier that prevented the protection of her kids? Even the most proprosecution slanted timelines really make me wonder why she was ever allowed alone with her kids....even for a second.

Thanks for asking, you bring up a very important point.

The only reason my sister is/was not raising her children is because her DH left her in a psychiatric ward, literally took the kids and moved out of state (actually back here, they were living in Alexandria, Va at the time). I give him credit for making that decision, it was the right one. (as painful as it was for everyone involved) Even my sister eventually agreed that it was the right thing to do because she simply could not care for them in any sense.

However, he waited until she was severely ill for a long enough time that HE couldn't handle it an longer and she was alone with the kids while he worked, up until he left. She had no resources in the area and very, very bad things could have happened. (remember, they were all under 5 at the time, including infant twins) I also want to express that our side of the family knew she was religiously preoccupied at the time (we were all in Pgh and she was in Va), but had no idea of the extent of her illness until I went down and brought her home. If we had, we would have tried to get the kids out of there. Not sure how much we could have even done, to be honest. But, my BIL was in his own denial and kept telling us she was 'fine', up until the day he showed up here with bags packed and kids in tow.

My neices and nephews are now 19, 17 and 15/15. Forunately, she has really great relationships with them, in spite of the fact that she did not raise them, all that happened during the divorce and her hospitalizations/her illness.

There are very few 'barriers' within the system to protect the children. Unless there is a threat made or someone calls in CPS due to gross neglect or something, the children are left in the home with sometimes a SEVERELY ill person. Or, unless the family members realize they need to take over.

The sad truth is that there are children being left alone with severely mentally ill people every day.

 

[poohandwendy]

No offense to anybody with experience in regards to Mental Illness, been there myself.

But in my humble opinion, people REALLY REALLY need to back off of the "unless you know somebody with mental illness, you don't know what you are talking about" attitudes

I agree with you and I hope you all did not take my earlier post as condescending or that I think people do not know what they are talking about. I am only trying to express my personal experiences with someone who is/was that ill and in similar circumstances as AY.

I feel that she should never be placed back into society and I also feel that she should be sterilized immediately. I believe that anyone who has been proven to be so severely mentally ill that they cannot care for their existing children and/or show violence towards others should not be allowed to bring another life into the world. Many may disagree with that, it's only my opinion. I am an advocate for mentally ill people, but the innocent children MUST come first. And it also does not benefit a severely mentally ill woman to face pregnancy anyways. In every circumstance I know, pregnancy does nothing but amplify and accelerate the illness. Not to mention the hard core meds severely ill people need to take, even during pregnancy (often).

 

[Cool-Beans]

I feel that she should never be placed back into society ...

...I am an advocate for mentally ill people, but the innocent children MUST come first.

Ditto.

My take is that she should be locked up not so much as punishment for her, but protection for the rest of us. My heart goes out to those who are plagued with mental illness. Really and truly. But it also goes out to those who aren't. Letting someone who is criminally insane back out into society is just too big a risk for the rest of us. We don't know for certain that God or the voices won't start telling them to kill again, and can't take that chance.

If locking them up in a place where they can be helped can be done, all the better. But I think they should be locked up somewhere. And forever.