Andrea Yates-Not guilty due to insanity

[Disney1fan2002]

What if it were a dad that killed his children, and not a mom, would he have as much sympathy?

I don't remember the guy who killed his kids from NH and buried them in Ohio somewhere getting much sympathy. He was so mentally ill, he actually DID kill himself.

 

[BuckNaked]

What if it were a dad that killed his children, and not a mom, would he have as much sympathy?

I was thinking this exact thing last night - if it had been Rusty Yates that had killed the kids and claimed he didn't know what he was doing, people would have been clamoring for his head. Hell, people are saying he should have been arrested too, and he didn't lay a finger on the kids.

Yep, let's put the guy that didn't hurt the kids in jail, and let's have the woman that did kill them lie around under state care for a few years.

 

[chobie]

What if it were a dad that killed his children, and not a mom, would he have as much sympathy?

I don't remember the guy who killed his kids from NH and buried them in Ohio somewhere getting much sympathy. He was so mentally ill, he actually DID kill himself.

I was waiting for a comment like this and the answer is -it would depend on the circumstances. We know that Yates had post partum pschosis, a verfiable mental illnes that a man cannot get. We know that Andrea continued to get pregnant (because her religion and husband told her to do so), that she was left all day everyday with the kids and the family and others knew she was severly mentally ill. I don't know about the NH case, could give me a link and I will tell you if I feel the same about him as I do about Andrea. However, I do know that in most cases where a father kills his own children it is to get back at the wife for leaving him. If this was the case with Andrea, she would not be getting any sympathy from me.

 

[my4kids]

Perhaps you don't consider the pre-meditated murders of five children to be evil, but I certainly do.



I've not known of Alzheimer's patients that are capable of planning the murders of five other people, as Andrea Yates did.

This woman didn't just snap and do this, she planned it meticulously.

Alright this is the last time I'm saying this, and then I'm done with this thread too, because many obviously have no experience with mental illness and are clearly not educated on it.

Premeditation and Mental illness CAN occur at the same time. Insanity cases do not just apply to people who "snap" also- vice versa, people who "snap" and kill someone (out of rage for instance) are not necassarily mentally ill. (They might just be violent people with short tempers) They are exclusive of each other and are not codependent. The statement that she planned it meticulously so she can not be mentally ill- shows a major lack of understanding of mental illness.

Example : Mentally ill people commit suicide every day. They plan their suicides down to the detail and wait until no one is home and even remember to leave suicide notes. But many are still suffering from severe depression or some other type of mental illness. Just because they are capable of planning it and carrying it out does not make them mentally healthy. They are totally irrational in their thinking that things will never get better.

Anyway like I said, some here will not understand unless they or someone very close to them goes through it, and it is so horrible I wouldn't wish it on anyone. It is like trying to describe the color chartruse to someone who has been blind since birth. You can make all the analogies in the world, but they will never truly see it. And someone who has never felt the utter emptiness of mental illness will never truly understand how it feels.

I'm not going to lose sleep at night that this woman will be locked in a mental institution for the rest of her life, and the thought of her ever being released and able to have more kids makes me shutter....but the insanity verdict was absolutely the right verdict.

 

[JimFitz]

Alright this is the last time I'm saying this, and then I'm done with this thread too, because many obviously have no experience with mental illness and are clearly not educated on it.

Premeditation and Mental illness CAN occur at the same time. Insanity cases do not just apply to people who "snap" also- vice versa, people who "snap" and kill someone (out of rage for instance) are not necassarily mentally ill. (They might just be violent people with short tempers) They are exclusive of each other and are not codependent. The statement that she planned it meticulously so she can not be mentally ill- shows a major lack of understanding of mental illness.

Example : Mentally ill people commit suicide every day. They plan their suicides down to the detail and wait until no one is home and even remember to leave suicide notes. But many are still suffering from severe depression or some other type of mental illness. Just because they are capable of planning it and carrying it out does not make them mentally healthy. They are totally irrational in their thinking that things will never get better.

Anyway like I said, some here will not understand unless they or someone very close to them goes through it, and it is so horrible I wouldn't wish it on anyone. It is like trying to describe the color chartruse to someone who has been blind since birth. You can make all the analogies in the world, but they will never truly see it. And someone who has never felt the utter emptiness of mental illness will never truly understand how it feels.

I'm not going to lose sleep at night that this woman will be locked in a mental institution for the rest of her life, and the thought of her ever being released and able to have more kids makes me shutter....but the insanity verdict was absolutely the right verdict.

Don't preach to us about what we know and don't know.

I know one thing for sure.....the women planned and murdered her children and she is getting off easy.

 

[BuckNaked]

Alright this is the last time I'm saying this, and then I'm done with this thread too, because many obviously have no experience with mental illness and are clearly not educated on it.

You really need to get over the notion that because someone disagrees with you, they are uneducated about a particular issue. It's entirely possible that they just disagree with you.

The statement that she planned it meticulously so she can not be mentally ill- shows a major lack of understanding of mental illness.

The fact that you are criticizing words that I never said show a major lack of reading comprehension. Please show me where I said that she could not be mentally ill.

The bottom line is that she knew what she was doing was wrong, and she did it anyway. To receive no punishment whatsoever for that is horrendous, IMO. I really wish people would stop making this murderer the victim and remember who the real victims were.

 

[BuckNaked]

Don't preach to us about what we know and don't know.

Especially when she apparently can't even understand what we said.

 

[Toby'sFriend]

Premeditation and Mental illness CAN occur at the same time. Insanity cases do not just apply to people who "snap" also- vice versa, people who "snap" and kill someone (out of rage for instance) are not necassarily mentally ill. (They might just be violent people with short tempers) They are exclusive of each other and are not codependent. The statement that she planned it meticulously so she can not be mentally ill- shows a major lack of understanding of mental illness.

I don't think many people are disputing the fact that Andrea Yates is and was mentally ill. I'll concede right now --- yep, she is mentally ill. A very large percentage of criminal defendents suffer from some sort of mental illness. In Illinois, the warden of the Cook County jail facilities gave an interview this week where he mentioned that the County jail is the largest Mental Hospital in the State and vastly underfunded and under-equipped to handle their caseload.

The problem is, being mentally ill is not a legal defense for murder.

Yates' claim in mental insanity, which is tied to, but not the same as mental illness.

 

[BuckNaked]

I don't think many people are disputing the fact that Andrea Yates is and was mentally ill. I'll concede right now --- yep, she is mentally ill. A very large percentage of criminal defendents suffer from some sort of mental illness. In Illinois, the warden of the Cook County jail facilities gave an interview this week where he mentioned that the County jail is the largest Mental Hospital in the State and vastly underfunded and under-equipped to handle their caseload.

The problem is, being mentally ill is not a legal defense for murder.

Yates' claim in mental insanity, which is tied to, but not the same as mental illness.

Perhaps I missed it, but I haven't seen anyone say that Yates wasn't mentally ill.

 

[janette]

Sadly it does seem to be more women that commit similar crimes but not all women that kill their children do it for the same reasons. Some like Susan Smith and Diane Downs have killed when it their kids got in the way of their romantic ideas. A local women Norma Jean Roberts was convicted of murder this week in the death of her 11yo daughter. She also entered an insanity plea but the indications are it was the result of a custody dispute. The insanity plea is rarely a successful defense especially in TX because of the way the law is structured. A literal interpretation would have excluded Andrea Yates but the jury in their responses seem to have allowed for a more liberal interpretation.

Hopefully what this case has done is to make people more aware that mental illnesses are real and that someone displaying the behaviors and delusions that Andrea had gets help before a tragedy not after.

 

[DisneyMomOK]

Didn't Rusty sue that last doc, Saeed? I wondered what happened with that.

Sharon

PS The only thing Andrea requested from the divorce was the rocker she used when she fed her babies, which I believe means she grieves for them every minute of every day. If you believe in God and God tells you that you can only save your children by sacrificing them, isn't this a re-creation of Old Testament wisdom? I have noticed that many more women seem to attempt to understand her plight than men, whether here or in the papers or on television.

 

[BuckNaked]

PS The only thing Andrea requested from the divorce was the rocker she used when she fed her babies, which I believe means she grieves for them every minute of every day.

Good - I hope she suffers that every single day and night for the rest of her life. Since the jury refused to punish her, perhaps her punishment will come in a different way.

If you believe in God and God tells you that you can only save your children by sacrificing them, isn't this a re-creation of Old Testament wisdom?

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but are you saying that God told her to kill those kids?

I have noticed that many more women seem to attempt to understand her plight than men, whether here or in the papers or on television.

What plight? She murdered her children and will receive no punishment for it. I'm a woman and I can't begin to attempt to understand how she could knowingly murder her children, knowing that it was wrong, both morally and legally.

 

[disney4us2002]

I have no issues with AY being insane. Absolutely she was. I have issues with the "not guilty" part. It seems that defense should be disallowed (mho obviously). Why isn't there a "guilty but insane" plea? She did it, she admitted she did it, she even planned it over a period of time. She is (and knows she is) guilty.

I just cannot find sympathy for her. There were attempts made to help her but not much help for those children. If she believed she was a bad mother and had to kill her children to send them to God (my interpretation), why didn't she just kill herself instead?

 

[BuckNaked]

If she believed she was a bad mother and had to kill her children to send them to God (my interpretation), why didn't she just kill herself instead?

Yeah - odd how her being a bad mother meant that the kids had to die.

 

[lsyorke]

Here's a timeline of her history. As one who has witnessed psychotic reactions....this verdict is absolutely correct.
http://www.law.duke.edu/journals/djglp/downloads/gen10p61.pdf

 

[ExPirateShopGirl]

If she believed she was a bad mother and had to kill her children to send them to God (my interpretation), why didn't she just kill herself instead?

I believe she tried... perhaps even more than once.

It's really too bad her mental health issues weren't addressed aggressively then... before she had the kids.

 

[lucyanna girl]

The sad and simple fact is that five beautiful children are dead. Killed by the very person who should have fought for their lives with every breath in her body. Evil or insane it is the saddest thing I can imagine.

Penny

 

[poohandwendy]

I usually stay away from threads like this, due to having a sister who suffers with religious delusions. A sister who has 4 children, although she does not raise them any longer. And my exBIL was told, in no uncertain terms, that he should have a vasectomy because she should NOT be pregnant again, after the second child was born. And he completely disregarded that advice and went on to impregnate a VERY ill person with twins who were born less than 2 years after the second child. Four kids in less than 5 years. This type of story hits home in a very personal way. Thank GOD my family did not experience this horror. (my sister was never violent to anyone other than herself) It makes me literally sick to my stomach thinking about it.

I have to say, I do not place my sympathy with her...the children were dealt the ultimate suffering due to her actions. They are the ones who lost their lives needlessly. However, I do believe she was legally insane and I do feel that we should judge accordingly. I think our society has a responsibility to differentiate between cold-blooded killers and those who kill because they are not mentally sound. I do not think there is any question that she would not have killed her children if she were not psychotic and that is what convinces me that she does not deserve the exact same treatment as someone who is mentally aware and commits the same crime. I do not feel she will see the outside of mental health facility for a long, long time. This is not something that just vanishes with medication. Not that level of mental illness and certainly not with a history of violence. She will not be deemed sane for a very, very long time... if ever.

That said, I can totally understand the outrage many people here feel. I really can. And I would feel the exact same way if I felt she acted due to anything other than psychotic delusions. Or even if I thought she was psychotic, but killed the kids for other reasons like a blind rage or something. (Susan Smith comes to mind, she wanted her children out of her life and was NOT psychotic in any way, shape or form.)

But, I have personally witnessed someone who feels God is talking to them and acts according to that...above all man made laws and rules. She is totally aware of man made laws and rules, but to her...God's law takes precidence and always will. Until you have seen it firsthand, you cannot imagine what 'not being in your right mind' really means.

I hope I have expressed myself with respect to each side because I really can understand the strong reactions on this. This should NEVER had happened. NEVER. And until the mental health system takes more responsibility AND the public is made aware of how extreme this sort of illness can manifest...unfortunately, it WILL happen again.

As always, JMHO.

 

[lookingforward]

poohandwendy, what a thoughtful post, you offer great insight into this horrible problem and tragedy.

It is obvious that people have very strong opinions about this case. Whether Andrea is "evil" or not is really not the issue to me. She was and is a severely ill women who, although not in a prison, will be punished every day of her life.

Mental facilities, (even "nice" ones) are horrific places. The place she will be staying is called a "cottage". It is not the kind of cottage that we might picture in our minds. She will be on "lock down" 24 hours a day, sharing a room with approximately six severely mentally ill people (often violent) and she will medicated for the rest of her life. Psychotrophic drugs strong enough to keep her out of a psychotic state have a slew of side effects that in an of themselves make life miserable. Evil is open to interpretation, you may think she is or not, but Andrea Yates is not getting "away" with anything. She is locked up, mentally ill, and if and when she ever gets to the point where she can be free of mental illness (Highly doubtful) she will have to live with her crimes with a clear and healthy mind.

One more thing, when someone is psychotic they are not in any condition to adhere to medicine regimens. That is why people who are actively psychotic have to be hospitalized against their will. In Florida we call it the Baker Act and it happens EVERY day in the police department I work for. It forces someone to be involuntarily committed for at least 72 hours so they can hopefully be given meds. Unfortunately, we can't account for lousy medical care (which Andrea had), so mental illness is a cycle, in and out of mental hospitals. It is the worst disease in my opinion, because there is no "cure", no funding, meds that have horrible side effects, and a lack or support or empathy from the general public. Just my OPINION. Thank you!

 

[VSL]

If you believe in God and God tells you that you can only save your children by sacrificing them, isn't this a re-creation of Old Testament wisdom?

She actually had hallucinations of Satan I believe, not God.